The Irish protocol.

uptherebels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119201549#Comment_119201549

What "possible" downsides of Irexit do you agree with?

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119202272#Comment_119202272

I put it you that you can't explain why you think that Irexit is a daft idea in the context of Irish unification and Brexit.

Because it has a simple & compelling logic. It would dissolve all this nonsense about where borders should go.

It would be just another arrangement, echoing many previous such arrangements where the island of Ireland moves in close co-operation with our neighbours. We joined the EEC together, we leave the EU in tandem. Don't forget that there has been a healthy disregard in the Republic too for the EU, we voted down the Nice & Lisbon Treaties at first time of askings IIRC.

Personally I'd prefer staying in the EU and the UK would also be in the EU. But nothing is ever set in stone. Be very interesting if a future referendum is needed for Irish ratification and participation in some European army. I suspect a lot of people here who are currently Pro EU would suddenly get cold feet and start bitterly criticising same.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119203450#Comment_119203450

Economically it is a completely retarded suggestion based on a delusional possibility of reunification all while we become economically tied to a country that would happily stifle our economy just because.

FFS! Anyone who thinks Irexit is in any way a good idea should not be allowed near a tv remote control never mind be involved in public policy. That anyone thinks Ireland somehow might benefit by being a vassal state to the UK is equally deranged!

Please - take your meds before you hurt yourself!

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119203450#Comment_119203450

Are you playing Brexiter bingo?

Please stop. It's painful to read.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119203450#Comment_119203450

Perhaps, instead of the usual Irexiter homilies you could make a sensible argument for Irexit.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119203450#Comment_119203450

People can't explain why Irexit is a daft idea for the same reason that if someone landed in here insisting that nailing their dick to a plank of wood was a great idea they'd have trouble explaining how bad an idea it is......to think it's a good idea in the first place, one would need to be so devoid of reason to make the explanation pointless.

But let's give it a try and see how you fare. Irexit is a daft idea because it would be economic suicide, and because hitching our wagon to a nation who have the blood of countless Irish people on their hands, who treated our nation as nothing more than a resource, who to this day are hiding the actions of their armed forces against our citizens, and who have demonstrated that even now they can't be trusted as far as you could throw them with even a basic trade agreement would take a bit more persuasion than, 'ah sure it might help the Unification cause, but it might not'.

Genuinely offensive to think you're pushing this nonsense as if it is anything but the most niche West-Brit nonsense going (and I don't jump to the West-Brit terminology very often at all).

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119203450#Comment_119203450

Don't forget that there has been a healthy disregard in the Republic too for the EU, we voted down the Nice & Lisbon Treaties at first time of askings IIRC.

This is a completely reductive summary of the Lisbon Treaty; if not a deliberate mis-reading. It was not a rejection of "The EU", but the changes proposed within the Treat, and where it was seen to leave Ireland. The Lisbon Treaty was redrawn, the Irish supporting it 2nd time around. Declan Ganley's hysterical campaign never coming to pass - quite the opposite.

However, as recently as May this year a poll showed Ireland has one of the strongest levels of support for the EU. If anything, it has risen. There isn't anything remotely resembling an appetite for leaving the EU.

You're basically proposing committing economic suicide, on a fantasy Unionists would suddenly be sway by our abrupt, collective head-trauma, a United Ireland now a great idea. Please never visit a casino. Have you read a single thing from the DUP? Meanwhile, we would hitch ourselves to a country currently demonstrating a contempt for international law, changing bills unilaterally. As it struggles to establish a replacement to any of the protocols, systems and trading levels enjoyed while in the EU. A country with a pretty storied history of treating Ireland with contempt.

This is ludicrous stuff. You might as well talk about Longford leaving the Republic and forming its own country. Or Eamon Dunphy becoming head of the IMF. It's just ... daft.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/public-support-for-irish-membership-of-eu-remains-high-poll-finds-1.4873236

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119203644#Comment_119203644

Is Singapore a vassal state of Malaysia?

Utter drivel that people have been forced fed in this country about how inadequate they are for 40 years.

This is not the 1960's. The world has long changed and small dynamic independent economies lead the globalised world.

That's where Ireland's future lies.

The problem with the EU is not the market, it's not Europe, it is the politic nature of how it is trying to evolve that will destroy it, and will in my view end in the European tradition of infighting and war at some point.

Hard to see any other outcome.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119204961#Comment_119204961

The irony of you telling us that we've been force fed "utter drivel" given your repetitious contributions!

pixelburp

Utter drivel to suggest those against an Irexit are somehow expressing a sense of inadequacy. Recognising one's limitations is no less patriotic than somehow believing in a glorious Ireland Ascendant amongst the world as ... what?

And I'm sure it's hard to see any other outcome when one's bias demands the only way the EU goes is towards its own extinction. The obvious alternative situation is more political harmonisation and federalisation. Which I guess said bias just assumes would be rejected by the populous. I'm sure many will, which is why it's a slow change and meets critical reactions ala the Lisbon Treaty.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119204961#Comment_119204961

Dear God, are you actually posting something this stupid? You are despite it having been conclusively proven so by the UK.

What sort of golden relationship do you see Ireland forging with the emerging markets of the East, exactly? Flogging mushrooms and Kerrygold to Jakarta and Manila?

This might actually be the most detached from reality post you've ever written and that's saying something.

I expect to see the following tropes soon:

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119204961#Comment_119204961

So much wrong.

But I think I'll say something about 1 point.

Globalisation and the "small countries leading the world" is a fantasy that lasted for a while in the post Cold War unipolar moment for the US, but it is rapidly coming to an end. You'd want to wake up and pay attention IMO.

It depends on rules and all parties being willing to obey them. When you have countries of the size and power + influence of Russia saying their neighbours are not actually sovereign + nations can exist/cease to exist at the whim of a dictator moving his armies about + no rules apply to them at all...well, draw your own conclusions from that as to future prospects for small countries going it alone.

The UK believes it is big enough and ugly enough that it can just ignore rules too (even if they aren't as serious as the ones countries like Russia flaunt). When it comes to Ireland it has weight advantage and is disturbingly close by and able to exert influence here, so I don't see a great future ahead for post Irexit Ireland swashbuckling its way around the globalised world as the brave little country that can.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119206031#Comment_119206031

English nationalism and its adherents have debased their own country to the point where it's now an odious laughing stock on the world stage, has jettisoned the entirety of its soft power and its union is creaking at the seams.

This is not an example that Ireland should follow.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119206050#Comment_119206050

Yes we should be careful of Irish nationalism, indeed we should be careful of nationalism of any hue.

I only raised Irexit above in the context of this Protocol issue and the holy grail of an agreed united Ireland which many aspire to. Irexit would be to reestablish relationships with our traditional partner due to our geography. Issues over borders in the Irish Sea or on the island here would disappear.

Of course, it would have implications for trade with mainland Europe to use that term but like everything this is not as black & white as some posters like to portray. The UK has been and will be a large economic force in Europe, isn't that why the EU is bending over backwards to maintain trade with the UK, whilst preserving certain fundamentals. If they were a small economy leaving, they'd just be told to go and shrivel up. So aligning our economy with our traditional trading partner is not completely stupid. Those filled with political hatred for Britain won't agree at all.

Of course, maintaining membership of the EU whilst persuading unionists that they'd be better off with us is also a valid strategy. The key question is that of persuading unionists that they'd be better off with us and which is the best approach. To which the predictable reply will be, why should we appease near enough 1 million unionists - let them fcuk off into the Irish Sea etc etc. And round we go again.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119206211#Comment_119206211

This is just Quisling drivel. The EU is not bending over backwards to appease the UK. Repeating this fantasy does not make it true.

Brexit didn't make the UK disappear. It's still there, just as it ever was. How Irexit makes it any more there is beyond me.

Issues with the Irish Sea disappear if the government here in the UK grows up. No need for Ireland to commit to economic oblivion just to appease a bellicose foreign power. Appeasement does not have a history of working.

To conclude, you've spouting myths and nonsense in order to turn your country into a vassal state of the nation that presided over what could be termed as genocide and centuries of exploitation. Presumably this is to own the libs or something equally vapid.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119206243#Comment_119206243

I will never understand the kind of people who have watched westminsters treatment of Scotland Wales and NI and think "yeah lets Irexit and rejoin the UK, I want some of that"

briany

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119206270#Comment_119206270

Especially a UK ruled by the Tories - a party whose motto might as well be, "Back in your box, Paddy."

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119206270#Comment_119206270

Yep. Six of Northern Europe's ten poorest regions are in the UK. Baffling that we're seeing the Black and Tan Torino scutter yet again.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119206211#Comment_119206211

the UK is a dieing force, the EU haven't bent over backwards for it at all, rather it has done what it could to try and limit the effects on the UK people dispite it's government riding roughshot over everyone and anyone.

our traditional partner is the EU now, that is going to remain to be the case and the EU is a much bigger economic and beneficial force then the UK ever has, will or could be.

the majority of people in NI voted against brexit, they voted to remain part of the EU, so have in effect chosen the EU over the union with the UK.

aligning our economy with the UK is absolutely stupid given their economy is going down the pan and they have a hell of a lot less to offer then the EU ever will.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119206211#Comment_119206211

I'm not someone filled with hatred for the UK even if I think the current govt. is awful. IMO the United Ireland isn't a "holy grail" above all else for most Irish people. Some maybe.

In any case, as stated by others, I don't think the NI Unionists likely to raise the most hue and cry (DUP voters - so not an inconsiderable % of the population) would go for any independent united Ireland whether Ireland is an EU member or not. The only united "Ireland" they may accept at present, would be one governed from London or Belfast!

Even if you were correct, Irish people don't wish do a 180 on the strategy this country has followed carefully since independence (certainly since the economic reforms here, and then joining the EEC anyway!) in return for a united Ireland back firmly in the UKs sphere. This would probably a far poorer country in the long run, likely one whose economy is directed towards the needs of servicing the UK (again) - that is producing raw foodstuffs + shipping it to be processed in the UK. It was a disaster for this country before and repeating the same thing again and hoping for a different + better result is insane. You can't eat an "Irexited" United Ireland.

As regards the EU approach to EU-UK relations post Brexit, the EU is a rules based body, a bit of a product of that post Cold war period of a "globalised" rules-based world that I mentioned above which is now under strain and may be dying a death.

It thought there could be a continuing non zero sum cooperation with the UK despite Brexit and approached its dealings with the UK in that manner but the UK seems to have other ideas, and a different game-plan unfortunately. That's (partly) why it did not use its economic weight to just bully & harass the UK post Brexit to get what it wanted. There's also the fact that we are a member and have (considerable...!) influence on the EUs policies - we want the EU and UK working well together post Brexit for obvious reasons (like those economic links you've mentioned as well as NI of course).

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119206243#Comment_119206243

And where a'Chapaill do you earn your crust? Somewhere in my dim and dusty memory, I seem to recall you reside or resided in that evil empire across the Irish Sea? Just like some some of my siblings, other relatives, friends, fellow countrymen and women.

Clearly most posters have very fixed views, all must agree or not on their terms and conditions. Alternative solutions and ideas are not welcome or even worth a moments consideration.

So we're back to "maintaining membership of the EU whilst persuading unionists that they'd be better off with us'. We should be vassals to the French & Germans etc rather than the Brits etc.

Grand, don't expect much progress in my lifetime though.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119206853#Comment_119206853

We're not back to anything. You're putting words in my mouth. I'm not an Irish nationalist. I'm a tepid Unionist who has always maintained an openness to reunification if I see strong arguments for it.

It'd be nice if you actually put forward ideas rather than silly fantasies and debunked arguments.

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119206334#Comment_119206334

I had never heard of that cretin before. Jesus.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119206906#Comment_119206906

Aye. Took the Imperial shilling before becoming a "nationalist". He's like a Hardy Bucks character.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119206868#Comment_119206868

I guess that makes me a tepid Nationalist so :)

Even so, I advanced an idea - your consideration of same basically amounted to 'Quisling drivel' and 'Black and Tan Torino scutter'

Fine but if that's the level of debate, who'd bother?

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119206962#Comment_119206962

I can only work with what's provided and what was provided was nothing but nonsense. Fight fire with fire and all that.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119206853#Comment_119206853

We should be vassals to the French & Germans etc rather than the Brits etc.

And there it is. I was wondering if this entire segue was some kind of generic "dem Frenchies and Fritz bossing us about" Brusselsophobia, masked as a genuine intellectual thought experiment. It explains a lot that an understanding of the EU is through the lens and bias of subservience, the assumption it can only be a Top Down structure cos that's what the UK does. That Britain is somehow the devil we know, and better they than some continentals.

The only reason we haven't been jettisoned as sacrificial lambs to sort the brexit impasse is because WE ARE THE EU; we have say, we have power and influence because it's a bloc ofnl relative equals. All that would end the moment we tether ourselves to Britain again.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119207969#Comment_119207969

What Brexiters can't seem to process is that the EU is ultimately a collaborative enterprise based on pre-agreed rules in the treaties. They can only see it in terms of Imperialism, something one sees in many Brexiters, particularly Johnson though when Churchill had India, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Malaysia, South Africa and various islands here and there, Johnson has crowns on pint glasses.

Junkyard Tom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119207969#Comment_119207969

The only reason we haven't been jettisoned as sacrificial lambs to sort the brexit impasse is because WE ARE THE EU

How do people not get this? We would long ago have been patted on the head and told to STFU by the shower of reprobates in charge of the UK at the moment. You often read Daily Mail types threatening that GB could wreck Ireland's trade by putting tariffs on Irish goods. They, of course, forget that Irish goods are EU goods so it would require a GB tariffs on all EU goods.

This is some of the most pathetic stuff I've ever read in my life.