Report on High Percentage of Traveller Unemployment

Overheal

BanditLuke wrote: »

There is absolutely no comparison between black people and travellers. Utterly disparaging remark towards black people.

So they aren’t both human? Or the subject of discrimination? I’m sure we could come up with some similarities. Was that underhanded comment suggesting how much worse you think travelers are than blacks? The point being that there appear to be strikingly discriminatory attitudes towards travelers.

BanditLuke

Overheal wrote: »

So they aren’t both human? Or the subject of discrimination? I’m sure we could come up with some similarities. Was that underhanded comment suggesting how much worse you think travelers are than blacks? The point being that there appear to be strikingly discriminatory attitudes towards travelers.

The vast vast majority of black people go about their lives without commiting crime, robbing old people, torturing poor defenceless animals, throwing waste all around the community etc.... They also pay taxes and contribute towards society. Like i said comparing black people to travellers is the ultimate insult and i won't have it.

Overheal

BanditLuke wrote: »

The vast vast majority of black people go about their lives without commiting crime, robbing old people, torturing poor defenceless animals, throwing waste all around the community etc.... They also pay taxes and contribute towards society. Like i said comparing black people to travellers is the ultimate insult and i won't have it.

It’s not really the point though to compare the two, though, in as literal the mean you take it. I am simply stating that what I see here are abjectly discriminatory views against a minority caste of Irish. Your statement only underpins this by inferring such little regard you have for the reputation of the Irish traveler minority. Perhaps the high rate of unemployment has as much to do with settled attitudes about travelers and not wanting to give them any chance of integration without putting the cart before the horse with regard to their integration into the settled and segregated slice of society.

BanditLuke

Overheal wrote: »

It’s not really the point though to compare the two, though, in as literal the mean you take it. I am simply stating that what I see here are abjectly discriminatory views against a minority caste of Irish. Your statement only underpins this by inferring such little regard you have for the reputation of the Irish traveler minority

They've earnt that reputation, end of. I'm done discussing it with you as you obviously have it in for black people for whatever reason. Disgusting comparison that tells me all i need to know about the type of person you are.

Overheal

BanditLuke wrote: »

They've earnt that reputation, end of. I'm done discussing it with you as you obviously have it in for black people for whatever reason. Disgusting comparison that tells me all i need to know about the type of person you are.

I have no idea what you mean about having it in for black people? I’m not sure why you are getting so personal either (nor does it tell me your life story)

What I’m hearing is you have your mind made up about all travelers and end of will be discriminatory toward them?

Mad_maxx

Overheal wrote: »

Or is it Ireland’s culture that is failing?

Replacing the word traveler with black and reading this thread reveals fascinating attitudes/relationships in Irish culture about their segregated minority.

Never heard that analogy before :rolleyes:

SexBobomb

Comments on Irish social cohesion from an American, no offence, I'll take that with an extremely large pinch of salt.

Overheal

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Never heard that analogy before :rolleyes:

Then you are welcome?

Overheal

SexBobomb wrote: »

Comments on Irish social cohesion from an American, no offence, I'll take that with an extremely large pinch of salt.

It would be on brand to discriminate against my views based on nationality alright.

Final Boss

Overheal wrote: »

It would be on brand to discriminate against my views based on nationality alright.

Your views are not being discriminated against, just discounted on the basis that you can't possibly know what you're talking about, which is evident in the rubbish you've posted.

GTFO.

Working class heroes

BanditLuke wrote: »

They've earnt that reputation, end of. I'm done discussing it with you as you obviously have it in for black people for whatever reason. Disgusting comparison that tells me all i need to know about the type of person you are.

The irony of this post is something to behold

Lillyfae

Overheal wrote: »

It’s not really the point though to compare the two, though, in as literal the mean you take it. I am simply stating that what I see here are abjectly discriminatory views against a minority caste of Irish. Your statement only underpins this by inferring such little regard you have for the reputation of the Irish traveler minority. Perhaps the high rate of unemployment has as much to do with settled attitudes about travelers and not wanting to give them any chance of integration without putting the cart before the horse with regard to their integration into the settled and segregated slice of society.

A self created caste. Travelers are no ethnically different to me, and they're welcome to travel the length and breadth of the country if they want- as long as they don't force their children out of education, fund their own lives and pay their taxes.

Jequ0n

Jequ0n wrote: »

why not replace it with the word cat instead because they outright refuse to work and only do as they please?
But I guess that wouldn’t serve your purpose of calling everyone a racist

Love to show I'm not racist by likening minority to a non-human animal.

Overheal

Lillyfae wrote: »

A self created caste. Travelers are no genetically different to me, and they're welcome to travel the length and breadth of the country if they want- as long as they don't force their children out of education, fund their own lives and pay their taxes.

So settled Irish have no part to play in their segregation and disenfranchisement?

mohawk

Overheal wrote: »

Or is it Ireland’s culture that is failing?

Replacing the word traveler with black and reading this thread reveals fascinating attitudes/relationships in Irish culture about their segregated minority.

Many on this tread have pointed out that finishing school is not seen as important in the traveller culture. There is a link between education/skills/training and employment. I don’t see that an unreasonable position to hold. What aspect of Irish culture is failing travellers?

cgcsb

It's a very sad set up. The establishment of the welfare state circa 1970s/80s smothered their culture and killed off their skillsets (recycling metals). Travelling culture hadn't advanced to the point where it was compatible with the welfare state and now their whole culture is ruined.

WrenBoy

Overheal wrote: »

So settled Irish have no part to play in their segregation and disenfranchisement?

What more can we do for them Overheal that hasn't already been tried over the years?

Overheal

mohawk wrote: »

Many on this tread have pointed out that finishing school is not seen as important in the traveller culture. There is a link between education/skills/training and employment. I don’t see that an unreasonable position to hold. What aspect of Irish culture is failing travellers?

Would they see higher education as unimportant because they have no opportunity in higher skilled work forces?

nullzero

Overheal wrote: »

It’s not really the point though to compare the two, though, in as literal the mean you take it. I am simply stating that what I see here are abjectly discriminatory views against a minority caste of Irish. Your statement only underpins this by inferring such little regard you have for the reputation of the Irish traveler minority. Perhaps the high rate of unemployment has as much to do with settled attitudes about travelers and not wanting to give them any chance of integration without putting the cart before the horse with regard to their integration into the settled and segregated slice of society.

I spent years in constant contact with Travellers. I have met and interacted with nice people in that community, some hard working decent people but that was a small minority I'm afraid.

Over the past couple of decades travellers have become more and more involved in criminality, this is an inescapable fact.
Their culture pressures their young people to abandon education as early as possible and it is all too easy for them to be railroaded into a life of either criminal enterprise and or tax evasion.

The treatment of women is appalling within the travelling community, and if you happen to be gay and a traveller you had better keep it to yourself.

I have also witnessed travellers spewing vile racist abuse at minorities (particularly black people) as well as committing assaults against them.

Violence is a massive issue within the travelling community, they fued with each other and engage in brawls in public. There was a case years ago in Tallaght where two groups of travellers were brawling, one man decided to drive a car at the others and ended up hitting a little girl who luckily survived but was left paralysed.

Travellers choose to live outside of societal norms, they are not forced to. Their lifestyle allows them freedoms the rest of us do not have, the freedom to do as they please, to earn money any way they like and not contribute to the exchequer.

If travellers universally stated tomorrow that they were going to integrate into society and behave normally the news would be met with rapturous applause from the entirety of Irish society.

This notion you have of travellers being persecuted by Irish society is the very epitome of being misinformed. People are frightened of travellers, they live in fear in rural areas for fear of what travellers do in those places.

Travellers would be warmly welcomed into settled society, the ball is in their court, and the jobs they could be working in are waiting for them.

You are bang out of order drawing the type of comparisons you outlined above. You have no idea what you're talking about here, but we'll be glad to help you understand if you will listen.

Overheal

And yet white Americans were scared of the blacks too. Fear doesn’t mean you can’t discriminate, clearly. Your claim that communities cannot possibly be discriminating against travelers because they are afraid of travelers doesn’t wash a drop.

Lillyfae

Overheal wrote: »

So settled Irish have no part to play in their segregation and disenfranchisement?

We are literally all the same, they just decided to stay on the road after the famine and we wanted to have a roof. Overheal, they don't stay in school beyond 15 in most cases, not even until then in a lot of cases too. How do you think they are going to be employable? The ones who do go on to 3rd level mostly end up in quangos telling everyone how marginalised they are, and there are cases of others trying to go out and succeed being ostracised or worse by their own communities- there's a boxer in the UK who has been a target for them because he married a settled woman and got out of the life altogether.

I have no problem with travelers, I just think that their children deserve to avail of all the things that children are offered in Ireland, education, a warm home, stability- which travelers deny them, not society.

A few years ago there were about 16 members of the same family killed in a fire on a halting site. Who was to blame? Not the chip pan that caught fire when drug taking adults fell asleep, not the dodgy electrics which had previously been fixed by the council only to be taken apart by the residents themselves, no it was society's fault.

Overheal

Lillyfae wrote: »

We are literally all the same, they just decided to stay on the road after the famine and we wanted to have a roof. Overheal, they don't stay in school beyond 15 in most cases, not even until then in a lot of cases too. How do you think they are going to be employable? The ones who do go on to 3rd level mostly end up in quangos telling everyone how marginalised they are, and there are cases of others trying to go out and succeed being ostracised or worse by their own communities- there's a boxer in the UK who has been a target for them because he married a settled woman and got out of the life altogether.

I have no problem with travelers, I just think that their children deserve to avail of all the things that children are offered in Ireland, education, a warm home, stability- which travelers deny them, not society.

A few years ago there were about 16 members of the same family killed in a fire on a halting site. Who was to blame? Not the chip pan that caught fire when drug taking adults fell asleep, not the dodgy electrics which had previously been fixed by the council only to be taken apart by the residents themselves, no it was society's fault.

But they are? Examples here on thread of those who couldn’t get entry level positions in white collar jobs because of their personal background.

Jequ0n

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Love to show I'm not racist by likening minority to a non-human animal.

Depends on your point of view. Since I hold animals (incl cats) in higher regard than most humans it would have been a compliment in my eyes.

JimmyVik

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

One quite pertinent issue that isn't addressed is the percentage of travellers that want to be employed. Not too high I'd imagine

I know what to do.
The state can allocate 2000 jobs for travelers only.
These jobs will have a 37 hour week.
They have to turn up and actually do the work to be paid.
So there we are. 2000 jobs just sitting there that travellers can have without even an interview.
How many do you think would actually want the jobs?
Im betting you could count on one finger.

Overheal

JimmyVik wrote: »

I know what to do.
The state can allocate 2000 jobs for travelers only.
These jobs will have a 37 hour week.
They have to turn up and actually do the work to be paid.
So there we are. 2000 jobs just sitting there that travellers can have without even an interview.
How many do you think would actually want the jobs?
Im betting you could count on one finger.

Allocating 2000 traveler only jobs in other words is segregation. Like giving them their own bathrooms and water fountains. Who decides what the 2000 jobs would be? Probably not anything too important? I don’t think your plan would solve anything of the underlying problems.

Lillyfae

Overheal wrote: »

But they are? Examples here on thread of those who couldn’t get entry level positions in white collar jobs because of their personal background.

Without a third level qualification, anyone would struggle. They're well able, probably moreso than I, they just don't have the interest in a lot of cases.

I went to school and worked part time jobs with travelers as a teenager. I never had a problem with them, I liked them. They are pulled from that society by their own families as soon as they can- ie secondary school for students and marriage and children for the girls as soon as they turn 18- if not younger. The boys working on tarmacing drives (taught by older family members), sometimes badly because they've never done a real apprenticeship. And that's the best case scenario. If the family business is robbing or selling drugs then they end up in the lovely prison statistics.

JimmyVik

Overheal wrote: »

Allocating 2000 traveler only jobs in other words is segregation. Like giving them their own bathrooms and water fountains. Who decides what the 2000 jobs would be? Probably not anything too important? I don’t think your plan would solve anything of the underlying problems.

There were plenty of suggestions of on the job training earlier in the thread.

Akesh

There is a lot of critical theory being subscribed to in here. The reality is that traveller culture stops the majority of travellers integrating into society. It is a society they don't want to integrate into and who could really blame them? They get away with lots more than the ordinary citizen in this country.

People want to blame society for these issues because it's popular to blame society for the injustices they perceive to be happening. It's lazy analysis and shouldn't be entertained.

WrenBoy

I'll try again, What more can we do for them Overheal that hasn't already been tried over the years?

Overheal

Lillyfae wrote: »

Without a third level qualification, anyone would struggle. They're well able, probably moreso than I, they just don't have the interest in a lot of cases.

I went to school and worked part time jobs with travelers as a teenager. I never had a problem with them, I liked them. They are pulled from that society by their own families as soon as they can- ie secondary school for students and marriage and children for the girls as soon as they turn 18- if not younger. The boys working on tarmacing drives (taught by older family members), sometimes badly because they've never done a real apprenticeship. And that's the best case scenario. If the family business is robbing or selling drugs then they end up in the lovely prison statistics.

It would make sense for a marginalized family to not want to lose one of its own to the other side of the segregated society. Perhaps there’s more too it than simply not wanting their children to have a good life? Family cohesion isn’t hard to unravel.