Cross-border review of rail network officially launched

Pete_Cavan

If the goal is to improve rail connections between Derry (and by extension Donegal) to the rail network in the south, the best option would be a link from east of Lisburn to the Antrim town to Lisburn line at Ballinderry. That could be done with about 6km of new track. To go from Derry to Dublin, it would have to be train to Lisburn and then change to the Enterprise but the journey time would be better than going to Belfast.

If a longer section of new track was to be built, a new route from Coleraine to the existing Derry line west of Limavady (and actually serving Limavady) would knock a decent chunk of the journey from Derry to just about anywhere. A new route to Derry the other side of the Sperrins would be at least 3 times longer.

There is a lot that can be done to improve the existing network that doesn't require mega-projects which will take decades to deliver (if at all realistic). Hopefully the AIRR looks at the lower hanging fruit to optimize the existing network rather than just proposing a future fantasy network.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120881767#Comment_120881767

A new line from Coleraine to limavady would have to tunnel or zig zag up the section of sperrins that separates the roe valley from the bann.

There is a reason the original railway line ran along the coast - it was not for the sake of scenery.

the goal should be to maximise catchment using minimum amount of rail - adding separate redundant lines just means more maintenance and logistics issues. A high speed belfast to Cork spine with services feeding into that should be the goal. Its the most efficient allocation of rail resources - with this in mind, a 2nd line to derry or a line bypassing belfast both make no sense.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120881989#Comment_120881989

I started my post with "If the goal is to improve rail connections between Derry (and by extension Donegal) to the rail network in the south", so I was clearly posting in a specific context. I wasn't saying it was a priority or that it was more important than other potential investments.

I was saying how improvements could be made on that line and increase its catchment using minimum amount of new rail. Building a whole new 100km line isn't realistic, I was speculating on alternatives.

ArcadiaJunction

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120881767#Comment_120881767

that is a no brainer and puts several larg towns back on the rail network too.

gjim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120865616#Comment_120865616

I was responding specifically to the claim that such a route would deliver vast benefits to DARTl. The bottleneck on the northern coastal line is almost exclusively an issue for non-DART services so removing the bottleneck would only marginally improve DART capacity along that stretch and would hardly improve DART journey times. So the cost/benefit analysis of a new inland alignment would have to stand on the basis of delivering utility to intercity/regional services. I don’t mind arguing the latter separately but such a project would not significantly improve either northern DART capacity or speed.

brianc89

The current plan for Cork-Dublin-Belfast is 4-tracking and the 'unofficially' rebranded Dart+ Tunnel. Given the likely cost of such a tunnel, I don't think it'll ever happen.

A revitalised Metro-West plan would be far cheaper and allow direct interchange between Cork and Belfast as well as the airport, while avoiding the congested inner city Dublin network.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120885719#Comment_120885719

What is the source of this document? It is very vague in places (4-tracking Cork mainline and Northern line - for how many kms?).

Stuff about decarbonisation and implicit references to hybrid rolling stock. But nothing explicit or meaningful about electrification, a matter about which official bodies seem to have a total mental blockage.

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120885760#Comment_120885760

The 4 tracking on the Northern + Cork lines is vague on purpose. The extant of it will depend on budgets etc which are too far away to know.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120885760#Comment_120885760

Electrification: Decarbonising Ireland's Railways - Paul Hendrick - April 2023

One very interesting point be notes is that all of Ireland's main railways used to be double track!!!

The picture above is very near the end of the video.

https://youtu.be/JCK8teu2ry8

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120885767#Comment_120885767

I love it: plan is "vague on purose", budgets "too far away to know".

I'm beginning to think that all long-term planning in Ireland is a waste of time with that attitude.

Glaceon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120885760#Comment_120885760

Same with underground rail. Anything any way expensive is to be avoided, even if it’s the best option in the long run.

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120885885#Comment_120885885

Cork line for example.

Immediate priority is DART+ SW to Hazelhatch and 4 tracking between Heuston and Parkwest.

When this is complete we can discuss 4 tracking outside Dublin on the line.

One step at a time.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120885809#Comment_120885809

That was a reeally good presentation by Paul Hendrick of Irish Rail. I hope the strategic rail review is similarly grounded in reality and not given over to Ballina-Rosslare nonsense. I would have liked to see electrification get more prominence: long-term it is essential for full decarbonisation on long-distance routes.

Bsharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120886292#Comment_120886292

Irish Rail developed a strategy for improvements across the existing rail network which fed into the All Island Strategic Rail Review. Paul Hendrick's slides are from the Irish Rail work. The strategy is based on incremental improvements over time (aligned with fleet age and availability) which is why there are time bands. They want to lock in a steady state of funding, and resourcing, to make sure the plan is implementable and can get buy-in from stakeholders.

The peaks and troughs of infrastructure delivery in Ireland has the industry in bits. For example, outside of Irish Rail there's very few rail focused engineers in Ireland; consultants use mostly uk & french staff for track, signalling, telecoms, electrification and rolling stock.

Our ability to ramp up and deliver quicker will be limited by industry capacity in design & build. If we got DART+, Cork and some localised double tracking and passing loops (Limerick, galway) by 2035 I'd be delighted.

Bsharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120886292#Comment_120886292

They've a fair idea what they'd like to do decarbonisation wise. They've got EU funding to look at Cork Line improvements which is the starting point.

They don't want to go down the track of mega projects because of the issues with getting funding. Instead, the plan is a series of track realignments, speed improvements, level crossing removals and resignalling; future proofing for electrification as they go. This will make putting the wires up and electrifying more easily achievable when the time comes.

When i worked overseas on rail projects it was the same approach. Don't let big plans become hostages to fortune.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120886498#Comment_120886498

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120886532#Comment_120886532

Clearly Irish Rail have been doing good work, filling in the gap due to Transport Infracture Ireland (TII) not having any heavy rail respobsibility. It really shows up the NTA.

Ireland trains

Is the new enterprise fleet due to be ordered soon as it’s listed as a ‘quick win’

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120885809#Comment_120885809

Have to say this video is very hopeful, and has made me feel a lot more excited about the future of rail in Ireland

Bsharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120886750#Comment_120886750

Think it was late last year a consultant got appointed to an enterprise fleet replacement project. Based on the 41 ICR units even a 'quick' project involving new rolling stock can take a number of years. Enterprise fleet needs to consider 1500vDC, intercity 25kvAc and battery if you think about the line now and its evolution over the lifespan of rolling stock. Doesn't sound straight forward..

Sam Russell

No mention of Metrolink - I thought it ran on rails.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120887342#Comment_120887342

It's not an Irish Rail responsibility.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120885421#Comment_120885421

When you say marginally though thats not necessarily true. The current plan I'd for DARTS every 10 mins on that line. If a new route for Belfast was built there's no reason why that frequency couldn't be doubled. I guess they want to force people to drive on the m50 for the toll revenue. If there was an easy alternative the toll scam of the 90s wouldn't have worked

gjim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120887657#Comment_120887657

The planned peak frequency for DARTs after DART+ is every 5 minutes/12 an hour from Clongriffen, every 6 mins/10 an hour from Malahide?

Building a "new route" from Belfast will never meet any sort of cost/benefit analysis - last year it carried more passengers than it ever has in its history and it was still under 2,800 pax per day averaged over the year - which is under 250 per hour over a 12 hour day. Tunnelling under low density suburbs - like Fingas - will never make sense for such paltry numbers even if you could prove that the ridership would double, treble or even quadruple as a result of the improved services. You mention an airport station for this new line in quite a blasé manner - none of this will be easy technically and from an engineering perspective. And the entire idea requires complete electrification as a precondition.

And in the end - existing passengers of the Enterprise would now terminate in Hueston - a far less useful/central location so many/most would require a further Luas or bus journey which would likely negate much the time saved while on the Enterprise itself.

Some on this thread have questioning the cost benefit for the DU/DART tunnel (I don't btw - I still believe that it and upgrading southern Green Luas to metro should be the next priority) but this tunnel would facilitate at least 20 times as many passengers per peak hour - so no chance tunnelling under the airport and Cabra could make sense to carry 5% of the passengers.

In terms of value, building passing tracks at say 4 suitable stations along the northern line would allow the enterprise to overtake 4 DARTs on its way into Connolly which would knock 20 minutes off the journey. Could work without replacing existing rolling stock and electrifying the entire route to Belfast and can be done incrementally - say a station a year, providing immediate improvement to the service. Not as sexy as a 10 year, 10B project but would deliver 80% of the utility.

timmyntc

Rail review is to be sent to cabinet and published today

https://www.thejournal.ie/rail-review-report-donegal-cavan-monaghan-6127273-Jul2023/

Some clarity soon on all the noise about WRC or Ballina to rosslare as a freight "spine"

If these things are in the review id imagine they are stretch goals and not at all the priority. Time will tell, and soon

marno21

Pat Kenny talking about this in 5 mins on Newstalk

cgcsb

Is the report downloadable anywhere or will we just get snippets from tabloids?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120894551#Comment_120894551

It will be downloadable later today I expect, from the gov.ie website. Everything published by any govt dept or agency is loaded up on the following page

https://www.gov.ie/en/publications/

timmyntc

A summary straight from the horses mouth:

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/df8dd-putting-communities-on-track-for-a-new-age-of-rail/

Upgrade the core intercity railway network (Dublin, Belfast, Cork, Limerick, Galway, Waterford) to top speeds of 200km/h ensuring that train journeys are faster than the car.

Upgrade the cross-country rail network to a dual-track railway (and four-track in places) and increase intercity service frequencies to hourly between the main city pairs.

...

Increase regional and rural lines speeds to at least 120 km/h.

Reinstate the Western Rail Corridor between Claremorris and Athenry.

Extend the railway into Tyrone (from Portadown to Dungannon, Omagh, Strabane) Derry- Londonderry, and onto Donegal (Letterkenny)

Reinstate the South Wexford Railway, connecting to Waterford

Develop the railway to boost connectivity in the North Midlands, from Mullingar to Cavan, Monaghan, Armagh and Portadown

...

Connect Dublin, Belfast International and Shannon Airport to the railway and improve existing rail-airport connections.

Segregate long-distance and fast services from stopping services, ensuring quicker times on city approaches

...

Strengthen rail connectivity to the island’s busiest ports and reduce Track Access Charges for freight.

Develop first-mile-last-mile rail access for Dublin Port

Only a summary of course, but this should likely cover the key points in the report.

Most of it as expected, west on track not happy about rail from claremorris not extending beyond but perhaps sense has prevailed in this instance

bk

That all sounds great, but how much will it all cost? How long will it take to build? How is it going to be prioritised?

I hope I'm wrong, but it sounds like just another report that some politicians can get some press time and will then be quietly shelved.

The main report is available below

https://www.gov.ie/en/consultation/4d4f2-all-island-strategic-rail-review-public-consultation-for-strategic-environment-assessment/

It boggles the mind that they aim to double track Galway-Athenry and Athlone to Portarlington but the section between Athenry & Athlone will be left as single line