Cross-border review of rail network officially launched

Pete_Cavan

Sure, but double tracking is at least 20 years away. The Oranmore passing loop won't be opened for another few years yet. Actually the biggest blockage to the double tracking, in my mind, is the push for the WRC northwards.

This is the point I was making before, people focusing on several steps down the line so the first step never happens. In the case of extending the WRC northwards, I think it has become more a platform for certain people to push their own agendas (self-promotion, an argument against providing infrastructure elsewhere, etc.) rather than actually about trains.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120210114#Comment_120210114

There is an alternative plan for a Greenway along the line. There is also a strong narrative that it makes no sense to reopen the line, at any point in future.

It's important for WRC to be discussed and decided on soon. Reopening the WRC to Tuam could actually push the case for double tracking sooner.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120210174#Comment_120210174

Spending €50 to provide a crap service is not going to help the case for double tracking. If that level of funding was available, it should be put to proper use. The Business Case for reopening to Tuam won't stack up without double tracking, and possibly not even then.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120210188#Comment_120210188

I hear you, but you could argue that it's easier to push double tracking to Athenry if one of the reasons is future extension to Tuam.

If they build a Greenway on the line and everyone assumes Tuam will never happen, then it certainly never will happen.

cgcsb

I've heard some key points of the strategy which is complete but there's no sign off from the NI executive. In the medium term its planned to double track:

- Portarlington to Athlone

- Athenry to Galway

- Kildare to Kilkenny

- Limerick to Limerick Junction

- Maynooth to beyond Mullingar

Galway and Belfast routes will be hourly with big journey time improvements for Dub to Galway. Dublin to Cork will increase to half hourly. A programme of level crossing closures across all lines with particular focus on main intercity routes. Electrification of intercity and associated journey time and frequency improvements. Navan, Kilcock, Sallins and Wicklow DART extensions.

The pie in the sky section (post 2040) includes:

A wild, radical and potentially impossible new intercity line between Dundalk and Derry via Omagh.

A Galway to Sligo line

A Navan to Cavan line

And yes even a fixed rail connection across to the UK.

I have the impression that the wilder bits might be deleted before publication if for no other reason than the NI dept of infrastructure can't commit to spending...Well anything.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120210575#Comment_120210575

Electrification before full double tracking ...🤔

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120210754#Comment_120210754

Yes it seems some areas could see electrification before double tracking for example Athenry to Athlone may be electrified without double track. There's additional design issues most obvious being that we haven't been closing level crossings. So there may be hundreds of locations with level crossings on electrified lines which presents additional risks.

Geuze

The ultimate aim should be an intercity network as follows, with massive modal shift:

• double-tracked
• electrified
• no level crossings
• max speed 200 kph
• 12tph capacity
• average speed, with limited stops, of at least 130kph
• allows a mix of IC trains plus stopping trains

Dub to Belfast = 1.5hrs or 105 mins

Dub to Waterford = <2h

Dub to Cork = 2hrs

Dub to Limerick = 2hrs or less

Dub to Galway = <2h

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211213#Comment_120211213

I think your journey times are a good goal but really I think better is achievable. 230kmh is theoretically possible on some parts of the Cork line and journeys to Cork and Limerick could be much quicker. The Cork express train is already running at just a little over 2hrs. Limerick and Waterford already have sub 2 hour journeys.

Not much can be done about Dublin to Belfast. The key issue is creating am express track or tracks between Dublin and Drogheda which is a serious job no matter what route is chosen. There's also the issue that Northern Ireland still exists, meaning you won't see an investment north of dundalk for some time

pigtown

Any insight into Limerick-Dublin direct services and Limerick-Cork?

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211763#Comment_120211763

AFAIK nothing solid in the strategy about exact timetabling but a major renovation of Limerick Junction is proposed with Limerick and Cork connected by 'a mix' of direct and and changing trains.

With Dublin to Cork increasing in frequency, presumably with most of them having a connecting train to Limerick, I don't see where direct Cork to Limerick trains fit into that tbh. You'd have a train with a change every half hour between Cork and Limerick by default. Direct trains would mean a commuter like frequency/turn up and go. That's a lot of trains for Irish standards.

Perhaps some Limerick to Cork trains would run express and not stop at the junction at all.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211827#Comment_120211827

What is there to renovate? Sounds like lipstick on a pig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120210575#Comment_120210575

They should just rename this the Commuter and Suburban Services Rail Review because that's literally all that's happening in these plans.

p_haugh

One thing I noticed when getting the train from Athlone to Dublin yesterday - to get from Athlone (or anywhere on the Galway/Westport branch) towards Cork, one would have to get out at Portarlington, wait for a Portlaoise/Limerick bound train and then switch again at either Portlaoise or Limerick Junction, depending on the time of day and which service you're aiming for.

By the time you do all that, you may as well have driven down.

pigtown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211827#Comment_120211827

Tbh I think a shuttle service that connects Limerick to the Cork/Dublin train every half hour would be brilliant as long as there's no waiting around as is the case now, and the Junction is massively upgraded.

It might not be a bad idea to have a few morning and evening direct services that continue on to Galway though. I can't imagine many people travelling from Cork, changing at the Junction and also in Limerick. The trip would be slower than the bus when the M20 is done but an important connection to have I think.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212063#Comment_120212063

A major increase in speed and frequency would largely resolve that

brianc89

On the Limerick - Galway line, is there any hope of reducing journey time, or is that line massively constrained due to its winding nature?

namloc1980

The Secretary of State for NI has pushed back the deadline for the Executive to form until January 2024. So nothing going to happen anytime soon. Is the publication of the review dependent on approval by the NI Executive?

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120221095#Comment_120221095

Yes. There'll likely have to be fundamental change to Stormont to restore government

brianc89

https://www.thejournal.ie/rail-review-network-5991337-Feb2023/

Piece in The Journal today.

cgcsb

Sounds like fluff, nothing new in that. The reference to high speed being more long term than the fantasy lines to Donegal is interesting I think the journalists may have nodded off here. My understanding was that gradual improved speed on Dublin Cork would be a more immediate goal.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120222924#Comment_120222924

Are there two sides to Cork-Belfast... first being a near term improvement in journey times and second being a longer term very high speed new rail line?

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120222966#Comment_120222966

A brand new, very high speed line is pure fantasy and while I’ll never say never, we certainly won’t see that in our lifetime.

cgcsb

Very high speed isn't likely to ever be an attractive investment in Ireland the distance between major trips generators isn't great enough for trains to make good use of a top speed exceeding 300kmh. Makes sense in Spain and France where you have 600km + journeys across sparsely populated interiors. The lower to medium scale of high speed that operates in Sweden and England at the moment would be more suitable.

Galway to Dublin and Cork to Belfast at 200 to 230kmh electrified running every half hour with timed connections for Limerick, Tralee, Westport/Balina and Derry is more than enough to connect about 80%-90% of the population to Dublin in less than 2 hours with a near turn up and go service, with Cork and Belfast also being reachable in 3 hours from just about anywhere. Keep fares cheap and save tonnes of carbon on intercity road journeys. It'd cost the guts of €10bn to achieve that, a lot less than we've spent on the motorway network and we'd finally have a modern public transport network.

We could reorganise the long distance bus services to be more of a feeder service to non rail connected locations rather than having them compete with the railways.

Ban internal flights other than to the islands.

Markcheese

There aren't many internal flights any more anyway , farranfore ( which has a rail link ) and Donegal ( which is almost an island 😁)

There's probably a case for another rail link between Dublin and Belfast , and upgrading the Cork Dublin line to take more/faster express trains and hopefully linking the 2 , ( Heuston to Dublin airport - and head north ?? Maybe ) it'd be doable but expensive, ( so is everything) , and eu money would probably cover a chunk of it.

The only thing is every politician would want it stopping in their town , ( even if by highish speed line existing it'd free up more commuter space on the current mainline,

Are the cities of Dublin and Belfast big enough to have a dedicated highish speed line between them ?

cgcsb

Yes Dublin and Belfast and everything between is 'big enough'. We need to stop worrying about over providing public transport in this country. We've never come close to over provision before so no need to worry.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120224299#Comment_120224299

It would be nice if even in the short term the PPT facilitated Cork trains to go by Glasnevin to act as an interchange for the airport when Metrolink gets built. Would almost negate the need for BÉ to run the Cork Dublin Airport service if the speeds were there.

bk

"Are the cities of Dublin and Belfast big enough to have a dedicated highish speed line between them ?"

No, the rule of thumb for high speed rail is that it needs to connect cities of at least 1 million and distances of over at least 300km.

While Dublin has over 1 million people, Belfast is well below that and it is relatively too close. Add to that the complexity of Belfast being in a different state and how little the British are willing to invest in Northern Ireland, along with all the problems with the executive up there, there is pretty much zero chance there will ever be a true high speed line to Belfast.

At the very least, forget about it until we get a united Ireland. Under a united Ireland we might be able to squeeze money out of the EU for it, but then then it would be a stretch.

Honestly, I don't know where people think there is the demand to spend 10 billion or a lot more on high speed rail. I'm a Corkonian living in Dublin and have many family and friends who are the same. I've honestly never heard any demand from any of them for high speed rail. Mostly they are all delighted with the "new" motorway network and how much faster it is then the old roads.

I hear a lot more interest down in Cork on the upgrades to commuter rail, possible Luas line, etc.

Most people rarely if ever take intercity trips and those who do, maybe twice once or twice a month. 2 - 3 hours is not such a big deal for such trips. Commuting into and out of work every day is where the most demand is. If you have €10 billion to spend on rail, spend it on all the commuter rail services, Metro, Luas, etc. Those will carry vastly more people for that money and benefit far more peoples lives.

I'd argue if you want to improve intercity rail, follow the Dutch model. While they do have one high speed rail line, that is more because it is an international line. Most of the network isn't high speed, but it is all electric and higher speed then ours.

But what really makes it good is the fact that it is so cheap and so frequent. Turn up and go, trains always leaving and very affordable. Hell kids up to 12 can travel anywhere in the Netherlands for just €2.50!

I honestly feel copying the Dutch model and making rail affordable would do more to encourage intercity rail, then creating a super expensive high speed rail service that cost billions to build and ends up with ticket prices well north of €100 one way!

Markcheese

I don't think there was ever a suggestion of a new high speed line to cork , but upgrades would be great ,

Isn't the current Belfast line limited by terrain ,so the speeds are quite limited .

True high speed is probably unnecessary for Ireland .. but something like a penolino could hit speeds of up to 250 kph , although with stops along the way (mallow? Limerick junction or ballybrophy,Heuston, Dublin airport ? Belfast ? Each stop would add 5 or 10 mins , and urban area would probably be slower too,

It'd still be billions ,

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120226222#Comment_120226222

Nobody is really advocating for building new high speed lines though, improving existing lines for 200-250kmh is the way forward. We could achieve that for about 10bn on main routes. The ticket prices are not connected to the cost of building it.

The cities have their own transport strategies, Dublins will cost the guts of 15bn to implement, Cork's will cost about 5bn. As you point out Belfast will have €0 investment. This strategy is about the intercity network.

Markcheese

It's 90 to 100 km from Dublin to the border , no stops .. how much per km would that cost , (not highspeed line, just good quality 2 track line ,electrified ,) ,I assume somewhere around the same costs as a 2 +2 road , but without any junction cost .. so 5 -10 million per km ,? maybe , and then whatever it costs to connect to a cork line ,? If it was proposed properly the eu would prob get involved ,

I've no idea how limited the track on the northern side is.