Cross-border review of rail network officially launched

Markcheese

Of course this is total pie in the sky , if you wanted to fund an express Belfast ,Dublin cork service , it'd be about 4 and half to 5 hours on an express coach, you could make it business class seating , run one every half an hour ,24 / 7 , charge 20 quid a ticket and it'd still come in costing billions less than a new train link ,

In fact you could do that to link most cities on the island and still come in cheaper than building and running Belfast - Cork via Dublin ..

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120227883#Comment_120227883

It wouldn’t be a simple case of cost per km because different sections have different needs in order to improve speed. Major construction projects are now near impossible to accurately cost because of global factors, inflation, materials and labour shortages etc. So you can only ballpark a figure based on what's been done elsewhere in Europe.

For example Drogheda to Dublin will be a line shared between DART and enterprise services from about 2030 when DART+ is finished and serving Drogheda every 10 mins. To avoid enterprises getting stuck behind DART the only option is to build 2 new tracks. In my opinion those 2 new tracks should not be beside the existing ones but further inland closer to the M1 to provide a straighter alignment and provide a stop at the airport. Such a line would then have to be partially tunnelled in Dublin or have a very cleverly designed route, or share the short Pheonix Park Tunnel with DARTS. This would be a multi billion euro project, 3bn plus really.

The Drogheda to Dundalk section would be a much simpler job, it could be straightened, electrified and upgraded for hundreds of millions.

Newry to Belfast is woeful jointed rail, early 20th century stuff on an indirect route shared with slow diesel commuters with no prospect of upgrade. The only real option for an upgrade is a new line from Newry to Lisburn close to the A1. This would also be in the 3bn plus region. Of course as long as NI exists there's little hope of the English wanting to pay for such an upgrade that they'll never benefit from electoraly or economically.

If the above was done for say 6bn you'd be doing extremely well and you'd have 250kmh speeds for most of the route, with end to end journeys of an hour or less for express services, it could also be done in phases. Of course the main benefits and the majority of passengers would be using it to commute from say Drogheda or Dundalk to Dublin, such a line would offer unbeatable journey times of 15-20 mins and 30 mins respectively so driving or taking buses or even the DART would be pointless in comparison. It would be worth doing even if it stopped short of Newry for the Dundalk commuters, the freeing up of the DART line for more frequent trains and connecting the airport to the intercity network, such trips would likely greatly outnumber trips between Dublin and Belfast in any case. Also Dublin Airport will be heading for 40 million passengers by end of decade so an intercity service would indeed be handy, it is the country's main airport.

Dublin to Cork is in far better condition and has had a lot of upgrades already and the DART+ project will effectively provide the line with express tracks straight to Heuston by 2030 anyway. Electrification and any additional upgrades could give a mix of 200 to 250kmh running, it could be done for about 3bn. You'd have journey times of 1.5 hours or less for express trains. Much more passengers do Cork to Dublin than Belfast to Dublin but of course the benefits would mostly be those using to get from Portlaoise to Dublin on a daily basis in 30 mins.

Markcheese

Sorry , I meant if you were to build a new Dublin to the border line , completely bypassing Drogheda and Dundalk so no stops at all once past Dublin airport . and upgrade the current cork Dublin line to allow for more express trains ,

There'd need to be stops to link in Kerry at mallow and limerick at limerick junction or ballybrophy , and then flat out to Heuston ?

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120228287#Comment_120228287

There'd be no appetite for bypassing the largest trip generators

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120149985#Comment_120149985

Dublin has a good motorway network not Ireland. Limerick to Galway is practically the only non Dublin related motorway in the country.

Again Intercity to Dublin is brilliant and in fairness the Limerick to Dublin train really is but it's a very quick sliding scale after that.

Markcheese

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120228397#Comment_120228397

How would you get a new rail line into Drogheda and Dundalk ? Without following the existing alignment? Which can't really support higher speeds ..

, And they already have pretty good commuter connections , which could probably be improved upon ..

Economics101

Irish Times has a piece on the rail network yesterday (Sat 11th). Mostly about the West and North-West, with opening paragraphs bout the Lartigue railway (in CO Kerry. Hopelessly focussed on the areas least likely to suit rail investment, which should focus on where there is a potentially large volume of traffic.

And of course no mention of main-line electrification, about which we seem to have a blind spot. I'm not too hopeful about any review.

namloc1980

Too much energy being spent on fantasy projects to reopen rural railways.

monument

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120226222#Comment_120226222

Are you getting caught up with the phrase high-speed rail? And maybe the idea that everything would be done at once? Even the Germans and French didn't do it that way, and most smaller countries don’t. So, I don't know why we would.

For any new lines, we'd also be talking about a max of something around 250km/h-260km/h.

Just like has happened in the UK with HS2, the high-speed nature of the line is focused on and the benefits are not. One of the main benefits of a new Dublin-Belfast line is freeing up the Northern line to be pretty much Dart-only services, and connectivity (ie intermediary stop, increasing the network effect, increasing frequency and capacity etc).

Most people not talking about intercity rail isn't really a surprise, is it? That applies to most large infrastructure projects until there is some strength behind them. On the reverse even if that, I know a lot of people who would support the WRC in Mayo and Galway who are unlikely to use it much if at all.

But imagine your arguments that most travel is more local so we should not worry too much about investing in intercity rail being applied to roads?

In terms of allowing growth and decarbonisation at the same time, pitting local/regional and intercity rail against each other is now as much of an issue as roads vs rail. Both trip types need to be tackled.

Saying look at the Dutch model without taking into account how much that's focused on the very compact Randstad area (plus a bit of the southeast of the county) is a bit misleading. Even within the Randstad there are intercity direct and highspeed services between Dutch cities, and, when you're talking about international services, Amsterdam-Brussels is in the range of km distance of Dublin-Belfast. Of course, they different population sizes and onwards to Cork is hardly comparable onwards to Paris or London etc.

I think your point re frequency is more important -- frequency is more important than high speed. If there was a vision in Ireland for a line/route servicing Cork-Dublin-Belfast or even Cork-Limerick-Dublin-Belfast-Derry, you're not just improving those nodes but everywhere that links to them. The rail network Randstad acts like a network, but it's not comparable in the same sense that there's one main trunk line and so much linking to it.

Markcheese

For the size of the island we don't necessarily need high speed rail per say , like a tgv or ave,fast rail would do fine, distance, number of stops/restricted speed areas ect,

A train that does 400 kph max does not travel platform to platform at 400koh average ..

So cork to Dublin optimized for express services (3 or 4 tracking where necessary + pendolino trains maybe )

Connecting via a Dublin airport transport hub ,to an all new rail line to the border freeing up the existing line to be commuter / dart the entire way ..

bk

“Are you getting caught up with the phrase high-speed rail? And maybe the idea that everything would be done at once? Even the Germans and French didn't do it that way, and most smaller countries don’t. So, I don't know why we would.”

No I was literally replying to a poster a few posts before mine that suggested we build a brand new true high speed rail line:

“ second being a longer term very high speed new rail line?”

Frankly people are always bringing up the idea of completely new, true high speed lines both here on boards and even worse over on Reddit, that is what I’m responding too.

Even the lower end high speed projects some people are talking are quiet unrealistic IMO

Frankly we just need to roll up our sleeves and get working on the reasonable speed improvement projects that can be done on the existing intercity lines.

Close as many level crossings as possible, increased frequency on all the lines, double tracking, electrification, all need to be done and can bring nice speed improvements.

And frankly non of that is anywhere as important Dart+, Metrolink, Commuter rail improvements in Cork, etc.

FrankLeeSpeaking

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118240839#Comment_118240839

They actually got a consultant this time who knows about rail transport I see.

monument

As I said, one of the main benefits of a new line between the Kildare line and the northern line would be freeing up the inner commuter area of the northern line for Dart services.

A new line is more practical than adding tracks to the northern line.

Saying Dart+, Metro etc are more important is missing the point, it will take years for such a new line to be progressed and there’s no way the construction timelines would clash.

The case for intercity rail investment is strong on emissions grounds — both shorter and long-distance trips need to be decarbonised. One or the other doesn’t really wash anymore.

If we are to take learnings from the Dutch approach as you suggested, intercity and regional rail would somewhat merge — Irish Rail does it to some extent already but without enough capacity and frequency. In maybe a roundabout way, I’m going back to agreeing with that part of your last post.

And, yes, with any rail proposals, we should be more looking at the likely viable capacity and frequency than speed.

veryangryman

Have you ever got a morning commuter train and noticed that nobody (and i mean nobody) gets off at any station other the the Dublin Terminal? Alas the demand isnt there for anything that diverts from there

Markcheese

In a way that's not surprising , it'd be the opposite in the evenings ,

And if you look at the motorways that feed on to the m50 it'll be the same ,

Outside of the centre it's easier to drive to your destination and park ,

marno21

https://www.irishtimes.com/transport/2023/07/17/atlantic-railway-spine-from-ballina-to-rosslare-and-higher-speed-intercity-travel-proposed-in-rail-review/

The obsession with non existent freight flows to Mayo from Rosslare continues.

If that’s the main recommendation in the report it’ll read like a trainspotters wish list not a serious rail plan

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120861353#Comment_120861353

there doesn't need to be freight flows between the 2.

the whole point of the spine is that it allows for multiple different journey opportunities for passengers especially and freight.

it's the journey opportunities opened up that is important rather then the exact 2 end destinations.

if they deliver it all and i would be surprised if they do, it will be transformative and a big step in the modernisation of the country that is needed.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120861353#Comment_120861353

Is this an effort to get Ballina freight out of the very congested Dublin port maybe?

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120861353#Comment_120861353

"It is expected" "It is understood that"

Until the draft report is published in full most of this is just journalists repeating rumours on a slow news day.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120863042#Comment_120863042

But Rosslare as an alternative? Daft

Markcheese

Rosslare is a ro/ro port...

Rail freight doesnt/cant handle ro/ro

Rail handles container and bulk ,Bellview in waterford handles freight and bulk , and has a rail connection,

Problem solved, millions saved ..

Pete_Cavan

A meaningful rail "spine" worth investing in would be Athlone > Portarlington > new junction west of Cherryville Waterford (plus double-tracking Oranmore into Galway and capacity improvements west of Roscommon). That would really increase the potential for passengers and freight for a large chunk of the country.

The Dublin > Dundalk "spine" will be improved under DART+ and there is big scope for improvements north of the border. The Dublin Cork "spine" will also benefit from DART+ SW plus the level crossings removal from Tipp south. It could also benefit from improvements to rail under the N/M20 project.

I assume "spine" is used to mean part of the network that is less crap than the rest.

The network improvements are pretty obvious, we shouldn't need a report.

Sam Russell

I would think current lines need double tracking for a start. Limerick to LJ, Galway to Athlone, Bray to Wicklow.

Why go for the Tuam to Athenry and the like with no possibility of passengers?

gjim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120233115#Comment_120233115

The benefit would be minor (relative to the cost) for DART services - at the moment the cost of the congestion on the northern coast line is borne by the enterprise which has to slow to a crawl to fit between stopping DART services. So taking the enterprise off the coastal northern route would free slots to allow one (maybe two?) extra DARTs per hour?

This is a pretty small benefit for DART given the expense involved.

Any four tracking the existing route or even building a fantasy new inland alignment would almost exclusively benefit the enterprise by cutting 10 or 20 minutes off the journey time and so would be pretty much impossible to justify on any sort of cost/benefit analysis for a service that, at best, might support 2 trains an hour.

There are far more pressing things to be done with any rail infrastructure budget than shaving 10 or 20 minutes off one particular 12-a day intercity service, given much of the intercity network is riddled with level crossings, tight curves, lack of passing loops, long single track sections, etc. Even if all those things were taken care of, the next priority - hopefully within a few decades - should be to electrify existing intercity routes.

ArcadiaJunction

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120864261#Comment_120864261

I think these are common sense proposals - even if the Bray one has significant engineering challenges. WE are talking about a political culture that won't reopen the line to Navan for another 15 years and announce it as if they are doing us a favour.

ArcadiaJunction

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120861353#Comment_120861353

or they have been talking to Fr MacGreal on an ouija board.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120865446#Comment_120865446

I think they should move rail projects away from ABP and setup a new planning system for them.

Why is putting up electrical overhead lines on an existing rail line need a planning decision?

timmyntc

As far as the cost-benefit arguments go, the rail review will likely either list a large number of desirable projects in no particular order, or have a prioritised list with some stretch goals further down that list (like WRC2, rosslare to waterford, or the derry-letterkenny spur). That doesnt mean that any of these projects would take precedence over things like double tracking, electrification, removing level crossings etc.

For all we know this review may be the thing to kick off a massive change in how we fund and develop rail infrastructure in this country (or at least thats what the authors would hope... i have my doubts), but with that in mind it would be remiss of them not to have proposals made for much more than realistically will be funded, rather than proposing less. Ambition is the name of the game, any government who actions the plan can be pragmatic about what gets done and when.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120864261#Comment_120864261

Surely Portsrlington to Athlone make more sense as there's more trains using it

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120863165#Comment_120863165

Hey I'm very far from a rail expert, I'm only trying to make some sense of it from the outside is all!