Cross-border review of rail network officially launched

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120886532#Comment_120886532

I agree with this, but 17 years to re-double 20km of track between GY and Athenry is simply too slow.

There should be no need for EIS or RO to redouble existing track, unless it requires constructing actual buildings.

Cut back the hedges

Do the earthworks, drainage.

Slew the track.

Lay new track.

I accept that I am simplifying somewhat, but you get the point.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120895877#Comment_120895877

I don't really care what they say the tunnel is built for, that can always change after the fact based on demand. The difficult stuff (getting the damn thing built) is more important.

Overall I like the ambition of the report, there are curious inclusions like the Portadown/Mullingar line which is likely not serious, and probably won't be built. But if even 3/4s of this report was honoured, this would be an extremely robust system.

Regarding the NI portion, I think the Derry line to Portadown makes a ton of sense, and there are genuine trip generators there which would justify it being built, particularly in absence of an A1 upgrade. I think Portadown -> Monaghan also probably can be justified. I do think however instead of it going to Mullingar, they should just connect Omagh -> Monaghan -> Navan, as a direct line for Derry whilst also creating a commuter backbone for folk wanting to travel to Belfast.

One thing I find very odd is that I wasn't expecting them to attempt to build new-alignment rail lines. It was one of the reasons why connecting Sligo -> Galway on the old alignment was off the table, because the alignment was so poor. However if they're happy to plough a brand new rail line to Mullingar, why don't the fix the alignment on the Sligo/Galway corridor.

TheChrisD

I'm disappointed that the concept of Dublin to Cork high speed via Limerick was parked.

bk

"I don't really care what they say the tunnel is built for, that can always change after the fact based on demand. The difficult stuff (getting the damn thing built) is more important."

No, that is a horrible idea, that isn't how you build tunnels at all!

For instance you would need to design and build a very different underground station for a 4 carriage DART then a much longer intercity train.

Only in Ireland do we mix different services like this! You don't see them trying to send intercity trains down London Underground tunnels! The Elizabeth Line is a big success because it has only one model of train operating on it.

My reading of this report is that the DART Underground tunnel is dead.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120895968#Comment_120895968

There isn't a good positive case for DU, and hasn't been since PPT was reopened. The old plan is dead and likely redundant, and we are building out the current network around a big interchange at Glasnevin. It would make more sense to expand PPT than go ahead with DU at this stage.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120895968#Comment_120895968

It always looked to me like the London Overground and some of the outer (overground) Underground lines used the same lines as National Rail.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120895968#Comment_120895968

OK, a fair point.

I think it's a good idea to have an intercity station at Dub airport.

I think thie should be a stop on the Dub-Belfast line.

How then might IC trains from Cork/LK/WD/GY via Heuston get to Dub airport?

My thinking is as follows:

tunnel under existing track, starting say 1km or 2km back, with first station under Heuston, next station under SSG, then a station under docklands, maybe other stations, then DUB airport.

In that scenario, SSG could become the main city centre through station for all elec trains.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120895990#Comment_120895990

That's not true. The reason why there isn't a positive case for DU is because the NTA revised their demand projections in light of covid and put in some dubious assumptions about a permanent drop in demand that has not really proven to be the case in terms of travel patterns observed since covid. In other words, they thought there'd be a permanent drop in demand for public transport as a result of covid, but what's transpired is that we're well on the way to being back to pre-covid demand levels.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120896088#Comment_120896088

I guess a better question is what does DU do that 3/4 tracking PPT doesn't do, that would make it worth the likely 7/8 billion price tag. I'm guessing that is why it is being omitted.

Markcheese

Is there any chance that each major project can be costed separately,and their annual operating costs , and a reasonable estimate made for passenger numbers ,Ie have formulas for that - trip generators on the route - age profile , population within x distance of the stations , oh and alternative routes ,

Then give a per expected customer subvention required to build the line..

Some of the subventions would be stratospheric,

If only there was an efficent ,point to point ,flexible mass transit system , that can use current infrastructure ,

How about a

Basic

Underground

System .. or Bus

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120896061#Comment_120896061

The price tag for that idea would make the cavan portadown line look like value for money!

Economics101

Initial reactions:

1. Far too much about totally unrealistic possibilities (Mullingar-Portadown, etc, etc)
2. Far too little emphasis on relatively inexpensive capacity-enhancing improvements.
3. No rigorous assessments of the limits of battery-electric (range) and hydrogen (unproven technology). Also operational inflexibilities when train fleets are not useable on (almost) all routes.
4. Insufficient emphasis on the positive advantages of full electrification: fleet flexibility, energy efficiency, speed, reliability, low maintenance, longer rolling stock life, etc. All we hear are the initial capital costs.
5. No estimates of the potential emissions savings from rail freight (proportionately greater than for passengers)

I can see the media discussion being dominated by the usual hopeless cases: WRC, Rosslare-Ballina, Donegal, Mullingar Portadown (!!!). Here's a simple suggestion: how about a connection from the Up Cork main line to the Waterford line just South of Cherryville, thus avoiding a reversal at Kildare and the ensuing delays and costs.

Geuze

Portarlington to GY 800-1300m for elec and dual-tracking, okay.

Yet Claremorris to Athenry re-openeing is 400-600m, that seems very high? No land acquisition, just take up old track, lay new track, improve LC. Am I missing something?

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120895934#Comment_120895934

The thing about the tunnel is if its built as a DART tunnel with twin track and that's what it is used for then fine. If it's built as a DART and Intercity tunnel with 4 tracks also fine (I'm not sure I know any examples of 4 track rail tunnel other than New York City.

What isn't fine is if its built as a DART tunnel and intercity trains are shoehorned into it. You'll have 4 track railway on the northern line, 4 track on the Cork line reducing to 2 tracks in tunnel, a recipe for disaster.

In terms of cost, I'm not sure if a 4 track tunnel is more or less costly than having 2 separate tunnels on different routes, there's not much call for intercity to join the DART line in the city centre so an alternative route could be better.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120896204#Comment_120896204

Trains to run on it, presumably. There isn't any spare stock lying around and I imagine that when DART+ starts the 2600s/2800s will be retired as overhauled 29000s displaced by DART+ replace them.

Lines that wouldn't need new stock (short ones) are showing vastly lower amounts, Maynooth-Adamstown would need land acquisition and multiple totally new structures and is in as 100-200m.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120896212#Comment_120896212

Rolling stock is listed separately in the table.

Bebra

The map shows a line Mullingar-Athlone. Has this line not been converted to greenway?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120896237#Comment_120896237

Missed that. Figures for that are delusional, on the low side, for what is being proposed.

cgcsb

I like that the report has finally broke the ice on new useful lines in Leinster:

- A new alignment from Portarlington to Hazelhatch

- a new Maynooth to Heuston line

-a new Drogheda to Clongriffin line via airport

- the elusive Navan line etc.

Although I think 4 tracking from Clongriffin to Connolly is fanciful but even if we had a few good stretches of tripple track it would be useful.

The document stops short of just proposing a straight up new line from the airport to Heuston but still claims it can run through services from Belfast to Cork via 'Dublin Tunnel'. And from the map they have it seems like an obvious solution that more readily meets their goals rather than having the airport connection as a spur that trains have to reverse out of that'll become a bottleneck real quick.

By then Glasnevin station will have largely fulfilled DART underground's original job. A new tunnel from Heuston to the North could even have long stretches of cheaper cut and cover

Hibernicis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120894857#Comment_120894857

100% agree.

Strategic ?? There is absolutely nothing strategic about this. It's pure utter blueskies stuff. Like a verbatim report from an anoraks convention in a pub late at night. Everything bar the kitchen sink has been chucked in, apart from reinstating Midleton-Youghal, Waterford-New Ross and that mad West Cork nonsense. Sure there is some good stuff in there, but it's lost amongst the pie-in-the-sky and the basket cases and does nothing to provide a much needed clear and realistic blueprint. Quite the opposite it will create a fog of confusion, raise a cloud of promises and once again cause available resources to be spread far too thin. The “case studies”, which really scrape the bottom of the barrel, provide a graphic display of just how poor the report is. 

And of course with the Stormont situation we will get another 24 months of hot air about this without a single decision being made or a Euro/Pound being spent.  

I happened to be in West Limerick today, not far from Curraghchase, and stopped to see the flurry of Sisk activity on the reinstatement of the Foynes Freight line. I sat there for 10 mins looking at this and trying to think exactly what freight is going to be chuffing along here. It really makes you wonder where our priorities are – surely this money would have far better spent on say the direct commuter link to Navan.  Priorities ? Bang for Buck ? not to mention value for money or internal rates of return….

Very very disappointing. 

jd

So for the Wexford line, it is proposing additional shuttles to Greystones. And then in the future, when Waterford Dublin line is upgraded, it is suggesting extending some Dublin Waterford services to Wexford over an upgraded South Wexford line to a new station to the south of Wexford town. It also mentions having a line to Wexford via New Ross!? It's not very clear..

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120896443#Comment_120896443

Of all the crazy stuff, Sixmilebridge-Foynes electrification for €600-900m

WTAF

ArcadiaJunction

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120896767#Comment_120896767

Obscene post deleted. ArcadiaJunction, take it easy.

Glaceon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120896443#Comment_120896443

I personally think the Ryder Cup in Adare is what is driving the Foynes line rebuild.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120897035#Comment_120897035

But there has been no proposal - until this - for passenger services and the rebuild is already underway

Bray Head

I haven't followed rail infrastructure policy in a while but I sat down the morning to read through the review and, to my surprise, it's not as bad as I thought. The report authors Arup are pretty clear that what they've done is basically a menu rather than a roadmap:

This Chapter presents plausible choices for policymakers that, together, provide a route to achieving the Re iew’s oals and Objectives. In doing so, this Chapter presents a set of recommendations and summarises the case for taking them forward to the next stage of development. As stated in the introduction to this Report, the recommendations provided below do not represent official policy for either jurisdiction, but aim to provide a constructive, evidence-based approach for delivering the Goals and Objectives of this Review.

There were a few things I liked including that a Spencer Dock-Heuston tunnel would be transformative, but they should have stressed more that this would actually have big positive impacts for travellers from outside the GDA as well as inside. They also made the sensible point that Wexford-Dublin travellers would more usefully go through Waterford with a diesel coastal route terminating at Greystones for people to catch a DART.

In terms of the optics the biggest problem is the politicians pretending that much of this is deliverable when we all know that most of it isn't. It's a shame because when sensible projects like a DART tunnel in Dublin are on the table in 2030 we'll have a dozen TDs jumping up and down claiming that they are not getting their Lisburn to Mullingar line and why should Dublin get something if they are not.

But turning back to the review, there are a few things that really don't add up:

-Connecting Shannon and Belfast airports by rail. These are small airports and I'm sceptical there would be much of a modal switch for one arrival every 90 minutes and not much of a network to join. Even Manchester has only 16% rail model share and I count seven departures for Manchester Piccadilly per hour. The review only assumes 10% which is hard to imagine ever justifying the costs.

-For rail freight they propose developing a network of inland terminals close to major cities on the rail network. The obvious point is that major cities (Dublin, Cork, Belfast) already have a port nearby. Suppose you build a rail terminal at Hazelhatch. So you lift a container off a boat at Dublin Port, roll it on a train 15km to Hazelhatch, then lift it back on to a truck that delivers it to Liffey Valley. This makes no sense and you can repeat the exercise for Cork and Belfast.

-Some of the decarbonised options look like complete fantasy. I'm not an engineer but is there any solution for a 150km route from Portadown to Mullingar that does not involve OHLE or diesel?

-The report correctly identifies that four tracks are needed between Connolly and Drogheda but completely fudges how this would be done. I think this is a pity as hard choices will be needed here that are going to mess with people's back gardens and views but this is really where there are big benefits possible too.

-They propose a spur from Dublin Airport to Clongriffin which would suffer from very low patronage to speed and a very convoluted route. It would only mirror the Aerdart bus service of the early 2000s which collapsed due to low patronage. It would be even more irrelevant once metrolink is built.

Glaceon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120897038#Comment_120897038

I guess I'm being cynical about how this country is run and how big sporting events can rule the roost. SFPC wanted this for years but now that the Ryder Cup is on their doorstep it's being done.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120896443#Comment_120896443

From what I understand it doesn't matter if any freight goes on the Foynes line but it needs the line to get a certain top level grade which I assume is good for business.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120897081#Comment_120897081

Limerick to Shannon airport is totally unnecessary as the bus service is more that adequate. It's brought up a lot around Limerick)by people who would never dream of doing anything but drive anyway) as some holy grail that gonna bring in loads of flights.

But Shannon industrial estate is a huge employer in the area so Limerick-Moyross-industrial estate would be welcome.

Also good potential on the Foynes route in places like Patrickswell to grow even further as a commuter town.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120897425#Comment_120897425

Shannon has about 5% of the passenger numbers that Dublin has. Mentioning the 2 places in the same sentence as places for rail links is totally surreal nonsense. No sense of priorities whatsoever.