Cross-border review of rail network officially launched

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120897425#Comment_120897425

Look I agree with you but that's "commuter rail" and that's what I was complaining about: this document quickly becomes meaningless if you don't consider commuter rail.

marno21

I have yet to hear one good reason for a railway line to Shannon Airport except "I love trains and roads are bad".

1. The rail journey time from Limerick would be roughly the same journey time as the bus takes, and improved bus services can always be launched.
2. The rail journey time from Galway is laughable and would not be able to compete with an M18 express bus
3. There is ample car parking at Shannon Airport and it is directly accessible from the motorway in less than 5 minutes. (Passengers travelling through Dublin can avail of PT to the airport to save the trek from the car park, and passengers travelling through Dublin Airport may not even be able to avail of parking - this is not an issue at Shannon Airport).

The next issue if there was a rail link. How frequent would it be? Would it be of any use if it's not frequent? MetroLink proposes 90 second frequency so if your flight into Dublin is delayed there's no issue. Flights into Shannon being delayed/waiting for bags etc would cause severe onward delays unless the route is high enough frequency. Added to the knock on effects of missing connecting trains to final destinations etc.

Bray Head

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120896671#Comment_120896671

I think this makes a lot of sense. The alignment south of Greystones is quite poor and slow and it makes more sense to piggyback off Waterford services from Wexford itself.

You can look at the NTA passenger census and patronage between Rosslare and Greystones is really low. There are a few factors but the main one is that the M11/N11 follows the population and the rail line doesn't - particularly in Wicklow.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120897674#Comment_120897674

No there's benefit alright if you can build a rail commuter network in the Limerick area, because buses are stuck in traffic. We just don't do bus priority in Ireland. So for a Shannon town/industrial estate/airport plus maybe cratloe, moyross, etc you get a genuine commuter network. I think that's valuable alright

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120897674#Comment_120897674

Ya but the airport is only 1/3 of the story.

Shannon is a huge employer for Limerick through the industrial estate and also a commuter town of 10,000.

The train/tram as a major boost to the airport itself has been a go to for waster backbench politicians for years

jd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120897752#Comment_120897752

It's mention of an option of going via New Ross that had me scratching my head! Agree though,if Waterford line gets 200 km/hrs running it makes sense to piggyback on it.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120897576#Comment_120897576

Where has it been mentioned that Shannon airport rail link is higher priority than Dublin?

a lot of reaching going on here to find something to be outraged about. Some people complaining about the doc bring light on detail wrt implementation of some schemes - thats the whole point! This was to be a very high level review of rail services on the island of ireland - not a meticulous plan on how to 4 track north of connolly detailing who will lose gardens, and be subject to CPOs.

The scope of this review is along the lines of: if X service is built, it will add Y million euro to the economy, Z amount of CO2 saved, and cater for N number of passengers per year.

It is not a technical document.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120897884#Comment_120897884

You completely misintrepret what I said. Rail link to Shannon (for pax) is mad. Rail link to Dublin is at least a sane proposition.

murphaph

How many miles of new rail alignment has the state built again?

If we had already quad tracked Heuston-Kylemore and Connolly-Clongriffen and already (re) dualled the route to Galway/Limerick/Waterford then you might say there was some hope of the more ambitious stuff in this report (new alignments). But we have reopened next to nothing and built nothing new at all so how much confidence could you have in any of this more ambitious stuff? Not a lot. Couple it with the need for NI to deliver their side and you couldn't honestly say much of what's in this report will see the light of day. Like all the reports that went before it. The political will isn't there because Irish people don't demand this stuff.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120898000#Comment_120898000

Rail from Limerick to Shannon connects an airport to rail network, connects large industrial estate in Shannon with Limerick city, and also functions as a commuter line for Limerick. Nothing mad about it.

Hibernicis

Sorry to go against the flow here but the idea of Wexford via Waterford in more nonsense. It overcomes a problem (capacity issue between Bray and Greystones) that the general commuting/travelling public is neither aware of nor interested in. Even if the the Wexford via Waterford line speed was maximised the full length, the only displacement of travellers will be from the current rail service (Dublin-Wexford direct) to the new route. It's unlikely to attract any additional transfer from Road to Rail. And would make the Greystones to Wexford route even less viable than it currently is.

This is just more of the solution looking for a problem to fix mentality. There was a train running from A to B it 1879 therefore we must preserve this for the future. There is a small cohort for whom these routes make sense in 2023. Nobody else is interested and spending a lot of money improving these services from dreadful to awful and useless to near useless is daft. You simply will not get the modal shifts that are being talked about. The future of rail in this country is for high volume passenger traffic in the GDA, inter city and some opportunistic use of track for commuter travel elsewhere provided house construction can be aligned. A policy that is based on spending vast sums attempting to make Victorian tramways relevant is ridiculous and needs to be called out. Limerick - Galway proved that conclusively.

Hibernicis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120898063#Comment_120898063

Electrifying the current lines and extending them to Shannon isn't just mad, it's a criminal waste of money. If Ryan had suggested doing this it would be safe to ignore it. It's altogether different when Arup put their name to nonsense like this and it does serious damage to whatever credibility the review might otherwise have. 

I'm assuming that the €600-900m is for the electrification of the lines from Colbert to Sixmlebridge and Colbert to Foynes. There is so much wrong with this it's difficult to know where to start. 85% of this combined C shape passes through open green fields and ultra low density housing and that is unlikely to change anytime in the foreseeable future. Outside of the section from Myross to Raheen, the connected “population centres” are Sixmiebridge, Cratloe, Patrickswell, Adare, Askeaton and Foynes. Combined population 7,500, many of whom live far from the nearest station. Throw in Bunratty and Shannon on the basis of the airport link and you get to 17,000 total. Add 3,000 for new housing to be built on the line by those far seeing strategic thinkers in Clare and Limerick Councils and you get to 20,000. Potential passenger journeys per day, perhaps 500, 750, 1,000 ? Trains a day 8, 10, 12 ? This is complete and utter nonsense and makes zero sense. Just use a battery train. Oh and what about the one, or two freight trains per day or is it weekly ? And worst of all, the inclusion of daft stuff like this debases the entire report. Think what that figure of €600-900m could achieve in the Dublin area where there is a crying need and huge demand for investment, with a return on investment (social and environmental not to mention financial) that is stratospherically better. 

Unless of course Arup though that the enormous volume of freight that moves daily between Sixmilebridge and Foynes required a direct route and the budget figure included a 5km rail tunnel/bridge to cross the Shannon between Bunratty and Pallaskenry.....

Bray Head

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120898104#Comment_120898104

Yes but it would improve speed and reliability on the southside DART line because there would be no shared running with diesel services originating south of Greystones.

There are orders of magnitude more southside DART users than there every will be in all of Wexford and Wicklow south of Greystones.

webwayz

I agree it is hard to see shannon-airport spur, even if it was part of some Limerick Area Rapid Transport systems would it be viable.

Dublin Airport needs a rail link, the MetroLink we are still waiting (needs to connect with the northern line! after swords, donabate?), but a heavy rail link should be also looked at.

Belfast International a link to the belfast-derry line at antrim or south of it is surely feasible reusing some of the line from aldergrove to antrim.

Deedsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120897770#Comment_120897770

And it's not just Limerick. Shannon industrial estate employs people across the Midwest. From Ennis to Nenagh and surrounding areas.

It's the 3rd biggest town in the region.

There absolutely is justification for investigating the merit of commuter rail between the larger towns across the midwest region. It shouldn't be dismissed because of the airport link talk. That's an additional benefit of the link.

namloc1980

https://www.irishtimes.com/transport/2023/07/26/mixed-signals-from-government-as-taoiseach-says-new-rail-plan-makes-the-case-for-more-road-projects/

This encapsulates why rail will never ever be improved in Ireland. If we get electrification of the Cork Dublin line and a bit of dual tracking in the next 25 years, that'll be about the most that will come of this review.

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120898202#Comment_120898202

If you want a viable commuter network for the Greater Limerick area, then you need to ignore the Green plans for reusing an old rail line that meanders through green fields out towards Co. Clare and through low density housing on a single track line that has no room to be double tracked and doesn't serve one of the largest populations in the city in Castletroy or the University and the Plassey Tech Park.

Also people living in the Raheen/Dooradoyle area aren't going to use a service that brings them into the Colbert Station and then heads out the Ennis line to Shannon when they can drive there though the tunnel in 20 minutes.

The only way commuter rail works for the Limerick area is completely new dual track alignments that actually serve all of the city and can match the M7/N18 for speed (this is also needed for the Limerick Galway line). This is never going to happen though as Limericks population density (never mind the actual population) is far too low for what would be multi billion Euro expenditure. And it also shows the folly of the plans mentioned in the review.

bk

People keep saying a heavy rail link (not Metrolink) to Dublin Airport makes sense, but does it really?

In the abstract of course it does. But when you look into the detail of how you would actually do it and how much it would cost, then I feel it starts to fall apart. If we are basically spending 8 Billion just to get intercity trains to the airport, then it starts to fall apart. It definitely isn't worth that, not when the same money could be instead spent on a second Metrolink line, etc.

Honestly I've never gotten what the obsession with directly conecting heavy rail to the airport is?

Obviously Metrolink will go to the airport, but that isn't the main point of Metrolink, it is to get to Swords and open up massive amounts of development land in North Dublin. The Airport is just the Cherry on top. But here ARUP is suggesting we spend Billions for relatively small amount of benefit!

Honestly I'm not sure it would pass any sort of cost benefit analysis.

Hibernicis

Honestly I'm not sure it would pass any sort of cost benefit analysis.

It wouldn't. I get the feeling that when some lad in Arup was asked to prepare a CBA he misunderstood the acronym and took it to heart.

Geuze

AFAIK, the following airports are on intercity networks:

Birmingham

Manchester

Luton (1km peoplemover to terminal)

Stansted (stub off mainline?)

Gatwick

Heathrow (stub off GWML?)

Amsterdam

Brussels

Berlin

Koln

Frankfurt

Stuttgart (will be)

Paris CDG

Lyon

Are they all mad? No.

As airports generate a lot of trips, it makes sense for them to be on intercity lines.

Hibernicis

The Taoiseach rows in, and marks Ryan's cards/rains on his parade/defiles his hi-fibre cornflakes:

“A lot of detailed work went into that, done by really senior people who know their stuff. When you see the map you’ll see the enormous railway expansion that they believe is possible between now and 2050, with lots of new lines, for example, around the country.

“But if you read into the detail of that, even if we do everything they say we could do by 2050, the amount of freight going by rail will go from 1 per cent to 10 per cent. So still 90 per cent of freight will go by road. And the percentage of people who get around by train – commuters, passengers – will go from 3 per [to six per cent]. So this still leaves 94 per cent of people travelling by road or by footpath, even if we did all of these things that are in that plan between now and 2050.”

Mr Varadkar said the “case for further investment in roads is really strong” given such a high proportion of freight and passenger journeys would still be by road even if the rail strategy is realised by 2050.

https://www.irishtimes.com/transport/2023/07/26/mixed-signals-from-government-as-taoiseach-says-new-rail-plan-makes-the-case-for-more-road-projects/

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120898286#Comment_120898286

I strongly suspect that most of the Limerick commuter rail stuff is a sop to one particular TD who never shuts up about it. Anyone who lives or works in Limerick and doesn’t have blinkers on can see that it’s not worth the paper it’s written on.

I also strongly suspect that such plans will be quietly dropped should said TD lose his seat at the next election.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120898364#Comment_120898364

I didn't want to say this because I don't know a huge amount about rail, but I sort of agree with what you're saying.

In terms of what they're up to, I think their intention here is something like Schiphol where you have every train connection imaginable via Dublin airport and I can't see how that would work without a total reconfiguration of Dublin airport itself.

Schiphol has both sprinters (Dart) and intercity and that works very well. But I don't see why having intercity through Dublin Airport would work anywhere near as well.

bk

"Are they all mad? No.

As airports generate a lot of trips, it makes sense for them to be on intercity lines."

I'm well aware many airports have heavy rail links, so what? I can also list of hundreds of major airports that don't have rail links.

Every airport is different, different distance from the city, perhaps very close to the major rail lines, etc.

The point I'm making, you have to take each by case by case basis. Dublin Airprot is actually in a rather difficult position for heavy rail. Relatively clsoe to the city, so can be well served by Metro. It is close to one heavy rail line, but that line is already largely at capacity and it is separated from the majority or intercity rail lines, so actually get intercity trains to the airport is going to cost billions and billions and I'm just not seeing the need for it.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120898286#Comment_120898286

I think you're spot on. Any viable commuter network in Limerick would need to be basically new. And though they seemed perfectly happy to spend eye-watering amounts on rural rail, they seem to have stopped short of this idea, because as far as the document is concerned "commuter rail is out of scope". It just doesn't make sense.

Ronald Binge Redux

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120898466#Comment_120898466

It doesn't if you subscribe to the received wisdom that the car is king and public transport is a residual service. Perhaps the imposition of climate change fines may concentrate minds - or not! Let's see what is a 'criminal waste of money' then.

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120898202#Comment_120898202

Nenagh to Shannon is a 50 minute drive.

1. How many people make this journey?
2. Who will decide that a 50 minute drive is a worse option than driving to Nenagh railway station, getting 2 connecting trains which require going into Colbert and back again (assuming the train times match up), assuming that the train times miraculously suit their work schedule?

With all due respect, rail transport for this type of use is bonkers stuff. As much as the train is nice this type of scenario it completely falls down when you look at financially.

I'm yet to see a reason Shannon needs trains, that will either get people out of their cars or offer an improvement on the bus.

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120898492#Comment_120898492

Ireland is a small low density country with quite a dispersed population. Dublin and Cork are really the only cities where rail makes sense for mass transit. We should be incredibly grateful for the network we already have. There are very few routes in the country that there is a clear need for that aren't already well into development (MetroLink, Cork Commuter rail etc).

Ireland will forever be reliant on the car because of the way the country is. We won't meet our climate commitments either if we are purchasing vast amounts of concrete and steel to put down railway lines that won't attract many users.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120898492#Comment_120898492

If you think I subscribe to any kind of received wisdom that the car is king, you know VERY little about me. With a stark warning that you may die of boredom I suggest you check my post history which tends to revolve almost exclusively around the opposite.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120898364#Comment_120898364

Depends on what kind of heavy rail link. Some very expensive proposals have been put forward (such as diverting the Belfast line through the airport), but a relatively modest one would be a DART spur from Clongriffin mostly on land which is near runway approach paths and not suitable for much else. Belfast trains could stop at Clongriffin for frequent airport conncetions. Of coulse it would involve biiting the bullet on 4-tracking from Clongriffin to Connolly.

Shock horror, some houses might have to be demolished and replaced. As long as the project pays for this, that's what should be done.