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Cross-border review of rail network officially launched

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Comments

  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,434 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    “DART+ Tunnel should be turned into the 'All-Island Rail Connector'and accommodate a mix of InterCity, commuter and freight services.”

    Christ, no!

    Only in Ireland do people desperately try and send every type of service on the same line. Haven’t we learned from the Dart line that mixing services like this is a terrible idea and just leads to a much poorer level of service overall.

    No one else does this, I don’t see intercity trains or freight services in London Underground tunnels (Elizabeth line is a separate tunnel), or in Paris metro tunnels (again RER have their own tunnels). In Berlin they have 6 tracks side by side, one set each for intercity, commuter and SBahn.

    The frequency and capacity of the DART is extremely limited from having to share track with intercity, commuter, etc. Let’s not repeat that stupidity in a brand new DART Underground tunnel!

    Seriously reading some of the completely mad cap ideas here makes me realise that Irish people really don’t understand how rail and public transport works.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,314 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    And there it is. If DART+ Tunnel is ever to be built it should be for a specific purpose, it should not be compromised by trying to do everything which would make it an extremely expensive failure.

    The biggest issue our rail network has is the lack of capacity means everything is competing for limited space, undermining everything. It needs to designed around high frequency commuter services, which would unlock the rest of the network around Dublin. InterCity and freight is not compatible with that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 226 ✭✭Bsharp


    Agree, but my sense is DART+ Tunnel won't ever get delivered unless Intercity services are integrated into the plan. That's the political conundrum faced. It could be sold as a national rail project, showcasing 'Ten-T' Cork to Belfast direct services thanks to some EU funding, whilst linking large parts of the country with the 'national' airport and more direct services to Dublin City Centre. It will also be argued that it supports more frequent and directs InterCity services to Waterford, Limerick and Cork, on top of regional commuter services by freeing up capacity at Heuston Station.

    Commuter services in GDA are the hostage to fortune. Working from home etc will be used to justify a reduction in DART+ service capacity through the tunnel, which will supplemented by Intercity services stopping at Heuston and stephens green.

    The business case writes itself - climate action, regional balance, accessibility and social inclusion, tourism, international connectivity, TEN-T, economic development.

    Mixing Intercity and commuter services on crosscity rail tunnels isn't ideal, but it has been done successfully in constrained environments across Europe busier than Dublin. To see it in my lifetime I'll take the good over the perfect.

    Once opened we scale back the InterCity services, increase DART services, and make people interchange instead.

    Can Heuston Station cater for much improved InterCity services on the Kildare line? DART+ Options didn't assume much growth in services. A big failing of our approach to rail has been thinking about commuter and intercity services in isolation for such a small country. Now we're left with compromises.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 910 ✭✭✭brianc89


    I'd fully agree with this. Given updates in the network since DU was envisaged, most significantly Phoenix Park Tunnel, and perhaps a future Red Line Luas spur to College Green - the Business Case for DU is weak.

    However, a tunnel that incorporated improved intercity services could boost the case.

    I already wondered if New Spencer Dock could / should take the Belfast trains plus some Cork / Galway etc. The Spencer Dock Luas stop will be a much quicker connection than Connolly to Busaras.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 910 ✭✭✭brianc89


    I'll rephrase this - irrespective of the DU tunnel - is there a lost opportunity at New Spencer Dock?

    This whole area could be a better location for intercity services rather than commuter / Dart. A very quick connection between Cork-Dublin to Dublin-Belfast.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,434 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Trying to force Intercity trains into the DART Underground tunnel would make it vastly more expensive and thus guarantee that it never gets built.

    Think about it for one minute, the tunnel and stations now need to be designed for much longer intercity trains. Plus you now need to electrify the entire intercity rail network, as you can't put Diesel intercity trains in a tunnel like this, so now you have gone and billions and years more work to the project, making it much less likely to happen!

    People keep focusing on Intercity, when really there is very little demand for many improvements to intercity rail [1]

    All the demand is for greatly improved commuter services, getting people into and around our cities is where the demand is and where the VAST majority of rail users come from and where almost all the growth in rail will come from over the next decades.

    Spending billions on mad intercity rail tunnels, making DU much worse by trying to jam intercity rail in, etc. non of this makes sense or has much demand for it. Few people are travelling Cork to Belfast, it really isn't worth spending much money on trying to fix that.

    The reality is Ireland is a pretty small country, with a very good motorway network now which people are pretty happy with. The Intercity coaches using the motorways are doing very well and popular. Intercity rail tunnels, etc. aren't going to change that.

    [1] Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we shouldn't be improving intercity rail, but they need to be relatively realistic projects that deliver noticeable improvements. Longer trains to increase capacity, increased frequency like on the Belfast line, earlier and later starting times, reasonable projects for speed upgrades, etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,948 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Great but then we're back to square 1 on Dublin Belfast trains, we need to create a usable service. The only way to achieve that is to build more tracks to separate it from the DART. Do we bulldoze some of Dublins most expensive suburbs or do we build a new greenfield route with some tunnel/ elevated tracks. I never said there should be elevation through the park, cut and cover would be more appropriate. Elevation through the airport campus and perhaps over the M50 and navan Road at ashtown could be considered, it's easier than tunneling at those locations.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 910 ✭✭✭brianc89


    Can't disagree with your logic.

    Can anyone here think of any way the Dart Underground tunnel can actually be justified? We already have Phoenix Park Tunnel, we're likely to see movement on Lucan Luas to College Green in this decade.

    There is simply no justification for an expensive tunnel through the heart of Dublin, not to mention the oldest part of Dublin. It's insanity and I'm glad it's been left out of the GDA plan.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,378 ✭✭✭Consonata


    Is there any scope for expanding the PPT, allowing for folk travelling from Cork to alight at the future Glasnevin station, allowing for Airport access? Seems like it would be a better future station to set up given how well connected it is (ML to the inner city, Dart to the Docklands and GCD). There is probably limited expansion options for such a line in the future though.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,314 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    There are several improvements which can be made to reduce the Dublin-Belfast journey times. IE are looking to some of it under DART+, plenty can be done north of the border too. What you are describing is decades away and shouldn't even be discussed until all the low hanging fruit has been picked.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,314 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    The tunnel most likely can be justified given the enormous benefits it will have on the network in Dublin in terms of carrying capacity and facilitating more journeys. The direct benefits would mostly be for the commuter services but there would also be indirect benefits for intercity services too. I'm not sure why people here are so hung up on intercity services, Dublin and its surrounds are the most populated part of the island, it has to be the focus rather than services from less populated areas.

    People transferring from intercity services to commuter services facilitated by the tunnel strengthens the case for the tunnel. Running intercity services through the tunnel only creates problems for little or no benefit and damages the case for the tunnel.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 910 ✭✭✭brianc89


    The best solution would be a core western DART station such as Clondalkin where all intercity trains stop to allow interchange with the DART network before terminating in Heuston.

    Another option could be some intercity services continuing to New Spencer Dock using the Phoenix Park Tunnel and Drumcondra line.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 910 ✭✭✭brianc89


    Once Lucan Luas is built (long before a Dart+ tunnel) I believe it'll be very difficult to justify another cross-city route more or less along the same route. Probably better keeping that discussion to the other thread for GDA.

    Regarding intercity connectivity, best medium term solution would be a core western DART station such as Clondalkin, which could facilitate intercity connection with the DART network.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,948 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    I've yet to see any serious proposal to improve journey times or reliability on the Belfast route. The current time table is a work of fiction anyway. And I don't see how it's possible without more tracks because we are bound by the laws of physics. On the northern side of the border the only real fix is a new Newry to Lisburn route beside the A1, the current route is jointed rail with 140kmh limit and its full of commuter trains and NI is broke, way too broke to improve railways.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,314 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    We would have to spend a couple of billion south of Drogheda to get the same benefits which could be gotten from spending €100m north of Craigavon. Track replacements, signalling upgrades, passing loops and LC closures would do a lot to improve reliability and reduce journey times. We are talking at most two Dublin-Belfast trains per hour, I have no idea why people think it deserves major invinvestment.

    Surely NI being broke is exactly the reason why we shouldn't even be contemplating a mega project to accommodate Dublin-Belfast trains. Any investment made down here would ultimately be undermined by the state of the line up there. Sort things out up there first, even if we have to part fund it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,442 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    the case for DU is 100% solid regardless of whether it is kept to suburban and outer suburban services only or whether it's a bigger tunnel to accommodate some inter city and regional services.

    there is absolutely no case or argument not to build it, political will is the only thing preventing this vital piece of infrastructure from being built.

    as for dublin belfast, the fact is that the busy northern line south of the border needs more capacity regardless of dublin belfast trains, and the case for that investment is clear and 100% solid.

    quad track probably isn't doable but certainly tripple tracking with the middle line being bi-directional might be.

    there is no getting out of the fact there will need to be some big investments made, simply patching up isn't going to work, by all means the northern side of the border should get it's upgrades but the capacity issues south of the border still remain.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 910 ✭✭✭brianc89


    Dart Underground was planned before Phoenix Park Tunnel was opened and before Bus Connects plan was developed. Lucan Luas to College Green is also likely to be built before it.

    Additionally, the New Spencer Dock station will need to be closed and dug deeper to facilitate DU. So there are plenty of reasons going against it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,948 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    The main point being that there's a lot more travel demand to/from Drogheda, Dundalk and the Airport. Trains would travel as far as dundalk more than twice an hour. Its the line between the 2 biggest cities and we need the coastal line for DART, that's why we need to invest. We might aswell not invest in any of the intercity network by your logic.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,809 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    Sorry, but saying that DU cannot accommodate IC services in addition to Dart services requires ignoring the many precedents of such services found elsewhere in cities across the continent. Additionally, the cross border rail plan will, at the very least, lay out a timetable for the electrification of the Cork-Dublin and Dublin-Belfast lines, so the costing to facilitate such services wouldn't be part of that particular project anyway. And it's not like every station in DU needs to facilitate IC services. The main cost is from quad tracking the tunnel.

    Still, I don't expect DU to appear in the plans. I expect the review to make the following recommendations:

    • Quad track the approach into Dublin and (possibly) the approach into Belfast for the Enterprise service to reduce conflict with existing commuter services.
    • Extend Derry services onwards to Letterkenny and some line speed improvements towards Belfast on this line.
    • Electrify Dublin-Cork and Dublin-Belfast.
    • Some sort of Cork-Limerick direct service.

    This is what a realistic report should look like, if it comes with more bells and whistles then we'll know it's not worth the paper it gets printed on. Of course, the whole notion of making this plan a cross-border project is just a political ruse to ensure it's more hot-air and empty promises that don't get delivered. Will we be left in a situation where national rail projects in the south will get held up by political paralysis in the north? And timelines will be set in such a way that ensures current Governments don't need to act now so that future governments can disown these commitments in future. It's the same type of playbook we've been seeing with Dublin transport infrastructure for the last decade or more. And the argument each time is that circumstances have changed ...even though circumstances in Cork have changed by just as much, yet the Government is willing to stick with the delivery of a decades old CMATS report in that city (presumably because it's less costly).



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,358 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    It may not be a priority, but it could be done by simply rearranging current resources, no extra infrastructure would be needed bar maybe a couple of new platforms somewhere. I don't know if the current rolling stock would be able to carry sufficient diesel for that long a journey, but again re-fueling en route and eventually purchase of new engines with greater capacity would do the trick.

    The big problem would be the staff who probably mostly work out of Dublin, but again that could be addressed over a period of time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,442 ✭✭✭✭end of the road



    sorry but those are not valid reasons against DU and dont damage the case apart from with the politicians looking for another excuse not to build it.

    the phoenix park tunnel cannot and never could be a replacement for DU, the capacity DU offers is signifficant and frees up a lot of bottle knecks in the city.

    lucan luas is a separate issue as is bus connects as while they may serve some of the potential traffic, they by no means serve it all and don't address the issues DU intends to resolve.

    digging a bit more at spencer dock is a non-issue, grown up countries manage similar and it's just taken as a fact of modernisation.

    if we are going to allow small issues or poor alternatives to stop everything as we have been doing then we are never going to be able to grow up and modernise and one's great granchildren will be talking about the same issues.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 910 ✭✭✭brianc89


    I disagree entirely. DU was planned 20 years ago is no longer fit for purpose.

    By the time other lines have been built / upgraded, DU would create only 1 new station (one..) in the city that doesn't already exist (Christchurch).

    People on this thread are obsessed with DU - do you honestly think it'll happen before a Metro to Tallaght or Rathmines or UCD or Metro West? Wake up and smell the coffee.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,442 ✭✭✭✭end of the road



    planned 20 years ago but can be redesigned not a problem, the problems it was designed to solve are still there and will continue to be without it being built.

    the metros you mention won't be built so i don't know whether DU will happen before any of them given i won't see the lot of them in my lifetime.

    still no argument against DU from what i'm seeing.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,378 ✭✭✭Consonata


    Given that the public are barely on board with ML, the most cost effective railway option in the history of the state, DU being gotten through seems unlikely at best



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 910 ✭✭✭brianc89


    Yeah this is my main point though. A DU tunnel, of some description, would be fantastic and highly successful. But I just don't see it happening for decades, minimum, given a greater need for other Metro lines in the city. The East-West capacity can be 'managed' between PPT, Buses, BRT, Red Line and Lucan Luas.

    I only go on about it, cause I believe people on this forum are holding on to the idea of DU, but this is counter productive.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,948 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    I'm not wedded to DU myself. The Ballybough flats are overdue replacement anyway. A short stretch of elevated railway could connect Clontarf Road Station to the GSWR line across the Tolka and through fairview Park the Ballynough site, it would be less disruptive than the demolition at Tara St for metrolink, it would bypass connolly and boost capacity you'd also provide flexibility in stabling because fairview depot would be accessible to the maynooth and hazelhatch lines without reversing in Connolly. With meteolink in place your only issue is trying to fit Belfast trains in



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 640 ✭✭✭noelfirl


    I think you are putting too much emphasis on the alignment within the city centre proper and the additional station(s) - DU was never just about that, just as Metro North/Metrolink was never just about 'the airport'. DU was about turning the single DART line and two disparate commuter lines (to Maynooth and Hazelhatch) into two proper DART lines in an X-shaped network centred over Pearse station . It would have created two proper efficient through lines. It's shonky relation in the form of the Phoenix Park tunnel is not anywhere near sufficient an alternative solution in the medium to long term.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 910 ✭✭✭brianc89




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 910 ✭✭✭brianc89


    @[Deleted User] responding to your post from the GRR thread. Couldn't find the WRC thread...

    Specifically on Tuam to Galway, you say the bus is faster, but the current train from Athenry to Galway is 20minutes. The disused line from Athenry to Tuam is very straight and 30km long.

    I would estimate 40minute journey is very possible, even less if some of the line is double tracked. This is very similar to the bus?



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,277 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Bray to Connolly is 45 mins, and 20 km. I think the Tuam to Atheny is 50% longer, and single track (well no track). Unless the train from Tuam could go directly to Galway, it would be 1hr 30 mins. How long does the bus take? And how many buses do the trip each day?

    What happens when the train gets to Galway? Does it return for the next load of commuters? So how many return trips for the morning commute?

    There just is not the traffic for the Tuam Athenry commutes.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 910 ✭✭✭brianc89


    There are 17 Dart stations between Bray and Connolly, compared be zero (max one) between Tuam and Athenry (30km), so it's a very bad comparison.

    Tuam is also the largest town in Galway, so any assumption that no demand exists between Tuam and Galway makes no sense.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,442 ✭✭✭✭end of the road



    exactly and as well as that, trains from tuam would be serving athenry anyway as it would be an important stop for them to serve, so the stop there would be happening even if the train could simply go straight through rather then go in and back out again.

    multiple unit trains would be operating the service so the driver just changes ends at athenry which would probably take a minute at most, being done while passengers are getting on and off.

    if we were still using loco hauled trains that required running the loco around then yes the athenry stop would be an issue but we're not.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,277 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Changing ends at Limerick Colby for LJ to Ennis takes 5 or 6 minutes. Train drivers do not sprint up the platform to get from one end of the train to the other. They need to gather their paper and lunch.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 910 ✭✭✭brianc89


    A regular Tuam service could potentially run via Athenry to Gort or Ennis, and have minimum waiting time for a connection to Galway.

    At present, do Limerick Galway trains have to switch direction in Athenry given the alignment?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,442 ✭✭✭✭end of the road



    as far as i know they do but i can't confirm for definite.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,442 ✭✭✭✭end of the road



    not a journey i have done so i can't comment on what happens there but i wonder if perhapse the train is timetabled for a 6 minute wait and the driver just takes it as an opportunity for a short rest.

    they wouldn't need to sprint but the trains are generally between 2 and 4 carrages so 6 minutes specifically for changing ends would seem excessive but maybe it does take that long to change ends and do whatever setup and checks if any.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,314 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    This conversation is a good example of the kind of thing I referred to previously. Before reinstating the line to Tuam can even to considered, Athenry - Galway needs to be double-tracked. No point adding new bits until the core network is capable of receiving it. We need a decade of proper investment in the existing network first.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,277 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    If it was decided there was sufficient demand for a Tuam Galway train service, would it not make more sense to make it a direct route?

    It is 30 km for a direct line (plus extra for the windy bits). I would think a Luas line would serve this route better than a 45 Km round trip via Athenry. It could first be built as a Claregalway to Galway line.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 910 ✭✭✭brianc89


    A direct route would definitely be preferred, but given the current direction change at Athenry required for trains coming from Limerick, it could make more sense to have a regular North South service with a 5 minute connection at Athenry to Galway.

    The disused line from Athenry to Tuam is fully there without any construction on the line. It's also surprisingly straight, given the winding nature of the line to Limerick.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,277 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Yea, but there are no passengers on that route. Claregalway is a desperate traffic jam at busy times, and well within a commute distance of Galway City, and would make a good P&R hub for those one off houses all around there. Add the traffic problems between Two Mile Ditch and BnT, then a bus/Luas service that wizzes past the part would attract many fans.

    Whether there is a Luas of fast bus service matters less if it is a frequent service and reliable. The advantage of a bus is it can be many routes to take passengers where they want to be. Rail can be quicker, but less flexible.



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  • Posts: 15,362 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Apologies, don't have notifications for mentions turned on so didn't spot this until now.

    Lets look at your proposal

    • 33km - Tuam to Eyre Square - 35 min driving, maybe 40 mins for bus at the moment. When bus lanes are implemented you're looking at 30 mins or less
    • Only looking at the private operator Burkes bus, you have 20+ services a day
    • For full bus lanes from Loughgeorge to the Huntsman, you're probably talking 15-25 mil, with the majority of that being spent from the An Post depot, to the Huntsman. Loughgeorge to the depot would require on a small amount of works as there is a hard should ready to be used for almost all of it.

    Now the train line alternative

    • 24.7km Tuam to Athenry
    • Roughly 6-7 level crossings which will mean it won't be fast. Sorting those out means the costs go through the roof making making a balls of the CB ratio
    • You'll have to include a stop at Abbey/Ballyglunin to capture commuters coming from Roscommon
    • Tuam to Galway, including stops at Abbey, Athenry, Oranmore, you're looking at, best case, approx 45 mins.
    • This means the absolute best you can hope for is a 2 hourly service
    • In terms of cost, Phase 1 was costed at 75 mil, but ended up nearly 50% higher than that. This section was costed at 35 mil in 2005, so likely close to 70 mil now given inflation and under quoting by the WOT lads.

    Note, this is not to say its not worth doing. It probably is, but you'll get a far greater return, for less money spent, with a more efficient, higher frequency service, if you focus on the bus lanes first. Burkes have stated many times they would ramp up to 30+ services if they could do it more efficiently. Right now they can't, because a peak time journey is approx 1hr+ one way due to congestion.

    Lets look at where the WRC is already opened, in Phase 1.

    Ennis to Galway

    • Rail - Approx 1 hr 15 mins. 30 eur cost
    • Road - Depending on route, 64-73km, 54-52 mins journey. 22 eur cost

    The usage numbers are horrendous too with that line needing one of the highest subventions on the IE network.

    There is absolutely demand, but I don't know of anyone, given the choice, who would choose the slower, more expensive and less frequent train, over the bus. I'm sure there are some, but if you asked the locals where the investment should go, I think it would overwhelmingly be for the bus lanes.

    At present, do Limerick Galway trains have to switch direction in Athenry given the alignment?

    Yes they do

    Before reinstating the line to Tuam can even to considered, Athenry - Galway needs to be double-tracked. No point adding new bits until the core network is capable of receiving it. We need a decade of proper investment in the existing network first.

    This! 1,000,000% this!

    If it was decided there was sufficient demand for a Tuam Galway train service, would it not make more sense to make it a direct route?

    It would, but 2 things would block it

    1. The WOT fanatics who are tied to reusing the 19th century alignment because.....reasons
    2. The shambles that is planning in Galway CoCo means there's houses built all over the place. Trying to find a route without impacting someone's property will be difficult. That's before you have the IFA and the farmers screaming blue murder for you stealing their farmland when there's a line lying idle that could be used
    Post edited by [Deleted User] on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,111 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    If the demerger by ESBN of SONI is a sign of things to come, where it looks like the interconnections will be removed, the DUP will change the gauge at the border.

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 910 ✭✭✭brianc89


    I think you're being unfair in your comparisons.

    A few comments:

    • The Athenry Tuam line is very straight, so a speed of 100-120k should be possible. Currently, all roads have over / under passes. The level crossings appear to be farm access only. Of course, upgrades to all of these would be required. I can't comment on cost as I don't know.

    • Best case bus time of 30 minutes (Tuam to Galway) assuming bus lanes is optimistic. It's 32minutes by car assuming no traffic (Google Maps). Buses are a bit slower and will have a few stops to alight passengers. 35-40minutes is more realistic.

    • The train could be 35-45 minutes assuming minimal (or zero) connection time at Athenry and assuming the Galway Athenry section is double tracked.

    • I'm sure there are lots of examples around Ireland where a bus is comparable in time to train, however people choose train due to comfort, reliability and connections (Dublin, Limerick, Athlone etc.)

    Ennis to Galway

    Rail - Approx 1 hr 15 mins. 30 eur cost

    Road - Depending on route, 64-73km, 54-52 mins journey. 22 eur cost

    While I don't think the success (or lack thereof) of the Ennis line should factor into the feasibility of the Tuam extension, I think your numbers are unfair.

    The cost of a one way ticket Ennis to Galway is 7.50euro. The time given for road doesn't factor in any traffic delays. A one hour journey time by rail should be possible with some upgrades.



  • Posts: 15,362 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I don't know of any commuter service that has speeds of 100-120k. Is there such a thing in Ireland? We can barely manage those speeds on the intercity lines and only on bits of those lines

    Best case bus time of 30 minutes (Tuam to Galway) assuming bus lanes is optimistic. It's 32minutes by car assuming no traffic (Google Maps). Buses are a bit slower and will have a few stops to alight passengers. 35-40minutes is more realistic.

    Fair point, I'll go with your 40 min

    The train could be 35-45 minutes assuming minimal (or zero) connection time at Athenry and assuming the Galway Athenry section is double tracked.

    Sure, but double tracking is at least 20 years away. The Oranmore passing loop won't be opened for another few years yet.

    Actually the biggest blockage to the double tracking, in my mind, is the push for the WRC northwards. The main line should be double track Galway To Dublin in full. It is from Portarlington but needs to be done in full. I posted a thread on the topic back when the JASPER report came out

    We spent 100+ mil open the WRC phase 1 and the money would have been far better spent double tracking the main line.

    The fact that the double-tracking was being proposed 15 years ago is also a poor indicator of the priority of it

    Simply put, any Tuam commuter rail will be utterly rubbish, without double tracking completed and the Galway-Dublin & WRC ph1 will also suffer.

    I don't oppose the idea of commuter rail from Tuam, but there's a long list of stuff that should happen first with the 2 highest priorities being bus lanes on the Tuam rd route and double tracking to Athenry



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 910 ✭✭✭brianc89


    Yeah can't disagree with your double tracking comments. It's appalling that the existing Intercity lines haven't been double tracked - it's not even proposed 🙈🙈🙄🙄

    On the commuter train speed - I don't think I'm massively wrong there - probably closer to 100k? For example, Athlone to Ballinsloe is 25km and takes 16minutes, which is close to 100km/h.



  • Posts: 15,362 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I'm no expert on the models by any stretch so this is just a layman observation but wouldn't the commuter trains be a less powerful model than the intercity ones?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 910 ✭✭✭brianc89


    I don't know either way. The commuter trains to Newbridge, Portlaoise, Longford seem to be similar, or same, carriages that so intercity routes, but don't know for sure.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,442 ✭✭✭✭end of the road



    they would be yes as they are designed for suburban services, so would only be capable of lower speeds.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,442 ✭✭✭✭end of the road



    correct they are.

    those trains are designed for inter city and regional routes but are used extensively on suburban and outer suburban services which technically they are not designed for.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,181 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    I agree that double-tracking helps everybody.

    The existing intercity Gy to Dublin

    The Galway-LK trains

    The case for a train to Tuam


    The line to Athenry should be doubled asap, with new stations in Renmore, Roscam.

    As should LJ to Limerick.



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