Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XII (The Byrne Supremacy)

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029661#Comment_122029661

Bandon Grammer DOR has a french accent (ex spain national team coach 😜 )

but the exception above aside, thats an idea. Have you any idea how much funding Munster put into schools rugby as it is?

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029435#Comment_122029435

I'm not missing the point, at all.

No, Ulster won't be able to match the output of the Leinster academy any time soon - but no one said it should or could. Constantly saying "we can't match Leinster" sort of overlooks the fact that you're struggling to match Connacht. For a man who was so fixated on red herrings, you're throwing them around at a fair old pelt yourself. You have to, because your underlying position is so weak and flawed.

It's not about matching Leinster, it's about contributing something. When we're sending out a 23 in the Six Nations that features not a single Ulster player, something is deeply, deeply wrong. The only players who featured at all in this 6N were McCloskey (age 31) and Henderson (32) so I'm struggling to see things being much brighter this time next year. Munster at least have Crowley, Casey and Nash as young-ish guys who got a run out.

If you want to sit there and believe that this would all be OK if only Leinster don't sign Barrett, fair enough, you're probably on the same wavelength as the guys running Ulster for the last decade.

I'll repeat it - the contracts system has been in place for 20 years, it has not changed. What has changed is the relative abilities of different provinces to work under that system, and Ulster in particular have viciously resisted the efforts of IRFU to help/force them to do so. The party line seems to be that the Australian bloke is conspiring with the guy from Wigan to favour Leinster for reasons as yet unexplained. Fair enough.

So the question remains - if we give more money to Ulster, what will they do with it?

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029705#Comment_122029705

I'm partly on awec's side in this. Deegan is a grown up - if he doesn't understand leinster saying "you're third choice at best on our depth chart we think you are only worth this much to us but someone else in ireland will value you more" than that's on him. I don't think ireland suffer from him leaving as things stand anyway. I think leinster do have a few luxury players like this.

Where I differ is that I don't think this is going to change much or placate many people.

FrannoFan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029660#Comment_122029660

Ok there Karl Marx "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" 

theVersatile

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029661#Comment_122029661

How much of Leinster schools money comes from Leinster Vs just from the fact they are extremely wealthy schools plus outside investors?

I wouldn't think Leinster Rugby are the ones funding warm weather training camps abroad in Leinster schools, or building massive indoor AstroTurf pitches - but I'm open to being proven very wrong (as I often am).

Admittedly, your point re: coaches is an area Munster could improve on. The standard of coaching in all of the Limerick schools are absolute dirt. Only the Cork schools seem to have their shtick together in that regard. However Munster are already operating at a loss this year so it's hard to see where that money could come from.

StormForce13

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029792#Comment_122029792

Munster also have Tom Ahern who I reckon will be included in Irish squads very soon, possibly as POM's replacement.

Ciaran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029792#Comment_122029792

if we give more money to Ulster, what will they do with it?

Spend it on Aaron Cruden apparently. I don't see much outrage about this rumour for some reason.

clsmooth

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029830#Comment_122029830

I do get the idea to a point. If you’re not starting why should you get the same pay as a player at another province who is starting all the time.

But it doesn’t sit with the IRFU’s policy of not being able to outbid other provinces if they start cutting salaries for particular players who don’t move. Feels like it’s punishing players rather than rewarding them. So maybe they need to go the other way and allow provinces to offer players more money if the move. But then that creates another big problem if Leinster then decide they like the look of Gleeson or Hugh Gavin for example..

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029792#Comment_122029792

I'll repeat it - the contracts system has been in place for 20 years, it has not changed.

I mean, this is demonstrably false. The central contract system is significantly different than it was 20 years ago.

There are significantly less of them given out these days, presumably because elite player salaries have grown to a level where the IRFU do not want to pay 25+ players 100% of their salary any more. But this cut back has a knock on effect that we are seeing today.

If the CCs are only given to the cream of the crop, then it's unsurprising that they almost exclusively go to the one province that has the resources to continually churn out elite level players. And so this province frees up more money to invest in more development, which churns out more players, and so the loop is self-perpetuating.

You are being disingenuous also.

1. I never said things would be good if you didn't sign Barrett. I used Barrett as an example of how skewed the system is.
2. I didn't say Ulster wouldn't improve if we sorted out our academy, in fact the opposite.

Look at David McCann. Ulster have finally produced a forward who looks to have a bright future ahead of him. Let's imagine McCann kicks on in a massive way next year. He has no chance of a central contract, the back row contracts are all tied up in Leinster. Ulster have no chance of getting his salary off their books so that they can divert that money back into the academy. In all likelihood, Ulster will be paying McCann's salary for the entirety of his career. This is yet another symptom of a broken system.

If you imagine Leinster are a 10, and Ulster are currently a 4, even if we absolutely perfected our academy that might bring us from a 4 to an 8. But that final 2, we can never, ever bridge that gap under the current model. Nor can Munster. So long as Leinster perform to their potential then nobody can ever take their place at the top, an intended or unintended consequence of the IRFU funding model.

What we are hearing in this thread is that Ulster and Munster need to develop more players. And they need to improve. Maybe the IRFU need to make some changes. But these changes cannot involve:

1. Taking any central contracts from Leinster
2. Forcing any players to leave Leinster
3. Negatively impacting Leinster's funding in any way

I totally understand why Leinster supporters are so vociferous that nothing can change, I honestly would be too if I were one, but something has to give.

Paul Smeenus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029792#Comment_122029792

"What has changed is the relative abilities of different provinces to work under that system, and Ulster in particular have viciously resisted the efforts of IRFU to help/force them to do so."

What is that in reference to? What does that actually mean?

And we spend the money on improving our academy and underage systems.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029830#Comment_122029830

The problem here is that, by definition, moving Leinster's third choice players to become first choice elsewhere cannot close the gap between the provinces.

All it will do is alienate the fan bases in those provinces because they won't see the provincial team as being representative of the province, just a franchise based in that province.

Paul Smeenus

I'll be outraged if we bring Aaron Cruden in. Is he even playing professionally any more?

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029852#Comment_122029852

Because it will never happen.

Ulster are shopping for a 10 with 150k to spend according to the article that published that rumour. That is pennies.

Podge_irl

You are also acting as if the central contracts have been given to Leinster to do with as they will. McCann will get one if he breaks into the Irish team.

You can't take central contracts away from Leinster, you're taking them away from the irish international player. This is not just semantics. The argument is that they should get less commensurate general funding.

Paul Smeenus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029842#Comment_122029842

Ha! I'll take that.

AdamD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029898#Comment_122029898

They could be shopping with 300-400k if that didn't sign an unnecessary niq winger..

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029830#Comment_122029830

And without wanting to delve too much into hypotheticals, the situation should be even worse too, had Dan Leavy not been so unfortunate with his injury.

By rights, Leinster should have all of Doris, Conan, VDF, Leavy, Connors, Penny, Deegan and Baird (if you count him as a back row) on the books at back row. Absolute kudos for developing every single one of those players, that does deserve a ton of credit, but it also needs to be recognised that this is an expensive back row to keep. There is more than a whiff of luxury about this.

But yes, a player's salary should be reflective of his impact at his club. The likes of Deegan and Penny are well down the depth chart at Leinster. If they are happy to continue like this then it should be reflected in the money being paid to them, because that money could be better spent elsewhere on players much higher in the depth chart.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029888#Comment_122029888

I don't really see it as a fix either though one could at least argue it is more fair.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029873#Comment_122029873

Your McCann example just doesn't hold water to be honest - The "backrow contracts aren't all tied up" forever.

If in a few years time McCann is tearing up trees and is a regular starter for Ireland usurping JVDF from the team then he gets his contract when it expires , just as Joe McCarthy, based on current form will probably take Hendersons slot when his contract expires.

The opportunity is to help share the demographics better with the other provinces.

Lets say that Leinster produce a dozen players that are at a level worthy of an academy contract each year , but they only have 6/7 slots available and will choose those slots based on their future positional needs - I'd imagine they will be overloading on scrum-halves in the coming years to try to unearth the long term replacements for JGP and McGrath for example.

If there was money available to help the other provinces make their offers more appealing as I previously suggested - College scholarship budgets , accommodation costs covered etc. it might make a move to another city more appealing to those players.

The idea of using financial coercion to get players to move to another province is just terrible from a man management perspective and also probably a breach of employment law.

The approach needs to be carrot , not stick.

Exclamation Marc

Is there genuinely a belief that there is some model where all four provinces are equally as competitive as each other?

Lets say there are twelve central contracts. Will having four centrally contracted players at each province actually achieve or change anything? Will the other provinces magically be filling in the other three semi-final spots? Of course not.

Central contacts are such an easy stick to beat Leinster and the IRFU with when the reality is that we're talking about the tip of the iceberg of why the other provinces aren't good enough.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029913#Comment_122029913

Right, to be clear I am not saying we have to take central contracts away from Leinster. They go to the best players and the best players are going to come from Leinster more often than not. That's not going to change.

I am saying that everyone else needs to be compensated in some way for the fact that 10 of Leinster's best players are essentially given to them for free, and if needs be, that should mean that cuts are made at Leinster outside of those 10 players to fund it.

And to be clear, I am saying that I believe these changes can be made while NOT affecting Leinster's ability to compete in Europe or the URC. This is not about dragging them down to our level.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029934#Comment_122029934

Ah here it is absolutely not a breach of employment law to offer someone more to move elsewhere.

As to whether it's bad man management, I think it's perfectly fair to offer players what they're worth and third choice players who rarely see a high level 23 man squad dont have massive worth.

Also the argument, which I think has merit, is that the funding for leinster is too high if they can afford to have such luxury players around.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029949#Comment_122029949

Also the argument, which I think has merit, is that the funding for leinster is too high if they can afford to have such luxury players around.

Yes! Exactly!

Put far more succinctly than I have managed so far. 😅

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029873#Comment_122029873

Let's imagine McCann kicks on in a massive way next year. He has no chance of a central contract, the back row contracts are all tied up in Leinster. 

This is my issue in microcosm. David McCann, he looks like a really good player and he will hopefully cement his spot in the Ulster starting team. Best of luck to him.

However, you've jumped from "exciting prospect" to "no chance of a central contract because Leinster". Here's the issue with that.

1. The guy has yet to feature in an Ireland squad, let alone become an Ireland first-choice. Let's see how he does as an international prospect before we decide if it's all a conspiracy.
2. The back row contracts are not "all tied up in Leinster" - POM is coming off one and unless I've missed a memo, a new recipient has not been announced, and it's unlikely one will be any time soon.
3. McCann is at least two years from being in the mix - Van der Flier has two more years on his contract, at which time he'll be 33 and McCann will be 26, should be ideal timing.
4. Nowhere is it written in stone that we can only have one CC per position. We have three locks and three centres.

So there's no reason McCann can't get a CC, but your immediate reaction is that he cannot because Leinster have it all sewn up. You have missed the underlying problems and jumped straight to the point where it's all someone else's fault.

I'm all for change, if the change happens where it is needed.

Dubinusa

Would coming through Leinster but playing for another province quell the uproar?

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122028972#Comment_122028972

You're right. But is this a Leinster problem? Is it Leinsters fault?

ionadnapokot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029873#Comment_122029873

If McCann is good enough to force his way on to the Irish XV. He will 100% get a central contract. Why would he not?

Exclamation Marc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030025#Comment_122030025

JGP didn't until now despite being Ireland's number one scrum half for years. Works both ways for/against Leinster

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029949#Comment_122029949

The suggestion was to say to a player - "Take a pay cut and stay here or keep your current salary and move there"

That would absolutely be a potential case for constructive dismissal etc.

Obviously saying "here's a pay increase to take another role" is no issue , but that wasn't the original suggestion.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029940#Comment_122029940

This is the key question.

We absolutely do not have the money to have 4 separate teams operating at a level that has them competing at the business end of both the URC and CC in most season. We just don't , we're not as bad as the Welsh but we simply don't have that kind of revenue.

We might have the revenue to have two teams at that level and to be fair Munster were almost there , barring their horrendous squad injury profile over the last two seasons.

So do we want 4 "balanced" budgets and squads , none of whom are quite good enough to be getting to Semi final/Final stages in the URC and CC every year or do we want to have at least one , maybe two that are??

And if we decide on the latter model as it would seem we have , does it not make sense for that team to be based in the largest population centre to maximise the opportunity?

That's not saying that we can't be doing more to ensure we are developing every single possible Pro-player coming out of the clubs and schools which means we need to work make it more attractive and manageable for a promising kid from Leinster to want to take a shot at it in Limerick, Galway or Belfast.