Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XII (The Byrne Supremacy)

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029048#Comment_122029048

Thornley said before a big game like the one in Aviva last weekend brings in circa 1m to the IRFU. He said IRFU and not Leinster, it was a few years back on a podcast so I don't know how it works.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029261#Comment_122029261

Jackman goes on about it all the time, seemingly some of the clubs in France have agreements with the ProD2 clubs so young players go down to play in that league to get experience etc.

Exclamation Marc

STH Presale for SF starts tomorrow at 10am.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029315#Comment_122029315

I remember a few years ago on Second Captains they had a discussion about young talented players in Ireland, not specific to rugby, and what is the best sport to pick. I think it was around the time Larmour started to play at a young age and could have played multiple sports

More or less they said the huge advantage rugby has is a young player can stay at home, with their family and become a star. A lot of soccer players have to move to UK and chances of success is less because they are away from home, in another country etc.

Now some players of course have moved to other provinces but the majority will want to stay with Leinster.

Interest it was Andy Dunne who said when Conan was coming up, a load of his mates played rugby and would have been good, not as good as Conan and once they didn't make the cut they all more or less retired. He was talking about trying to figure out why this happened and why these players didn't stick it out in AIL etc and maybe go a different route and potentially end up with another province

So the system is good but it does have issues like the one Andy pointed out

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029315#Comment_122029315

to me this is certainly a valid option. There is always so much complaints about "demographics" and "rugby schools" but in reality Leinster introduce usually around 7-8 players to their academy each year.

That leaves a hell of a lot of very good raw talent available for other provinces to tout and offer academy / educational pathways to.

im not well up on the other provinces set up below provincial level, as in, do they have an area system similar to where leinster have Metro, Midlands, South East, North Midlands and North East ?? if so i wonder can they improve on provincial coaching / screening at all youth age grade levels?

theVersatile

This would probably be less contentious of players from other provinces who were actually deserving of central contracts actually got them e.g. the captain of the Irish national team, Ireland's best winger (albeit maybe he's up for renewal soon), etc.

And yes, the draft is a terrible idea. The IRFU and RPI place too much emphasis on dual careers and going to college for that the work. The only exception would be a centralised IRFU academy in which players could be put up for open auction after three or four years (an academy cycle) on development deals - and which short term injury cover could be pulled from (and which fully fledged senior deals can be given early if a guy is clearly in another league based on AIL, Combined Provinces games, and Irish 20s).

I'm sure that'll also fall apart if you give it more than a second's worth of thought, but it's a cool thought experiment if nothing else.

Podge_irl

Hansen will almost surely move onto one, I doubt POM will be captain next year when he is off one and the backup scrum half has had one for years while the starting one didn't.

There will always be an element of timing resulting in the odd unusual looking situation but by and large I don't know how you can argue the right people aren't on them. Suggesting the allocation is wrong seems like the easy way out of what is a much tougher problem.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029218#Comment_122029218

You are missing the point.

This "Ulster / Munster need to produce more players" is true, but even if Ulster and Munster's academies were absolutely perfect at churning out talent, they still would not come close to Leinster. Not within a million miles. The academies will never close the chasm that has opened. Never.

So when people bleat on about the real fix being fixing academies, what they are really saying is "the fix that will make Ulster and Munster a bit better than they are today, but conveniently will ensure that Leinster's place at the top is never under any threat, is to just keep telling them to produce more players".

The real root of the problem here is money. The fix has to involve money, and a re-think in how money is distributed across the 4 teams that the IRFU are responsible for.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029385#Comment_122029385

Yes , they do the sub regional structures in the other provinces and whilst they've made real improvements in the identification and coaching of promising players , a lot more could be done.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029373#Comment_122029373

The drop off rate of players leaving schools/club rugby at 18/19 years old is absolutely massive and is a big challenge in the sport.

I'd be confident enough in saying that if you looked at any School SCT panel or Club U18.5 panel from 3/4 years ago , 60%+ of them are no longer playing the sport regularly today.

Not sure how to fix that , but it's a huge issue.

Obviously not all of those that drop out are potential Pro level players or even AIL level players , but more than a few are and even those that aren't, those are the guys that keep those smaller junior clubs going which ensures those clubs are around to provide access to the next generation of kids wanting to play the game.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029435#Comment_122029435

Money with which to do what though?

Because again it's either move players from leinster or bring in more NIQs. I'm not sure just saying "money" as an ephemeral concept means much. Ulster's current situation aside anyway, which seems more of an anomaly.

AdamD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029354#Comment_122029354

Am I reading it correctly that to sit in any part of a side stand (Hogan & Cusack), its €75?!

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029435#Comment_122029435

but you have ZERO idea of how money is distributed across all 4 provinces.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029435#Comment_122029435

Perhaps a solution is more funding for "scholarships" to facilitate a Leinster originating player taking up an Academy offer in one of the other Provinces.

Yes , Demographics will mean that Leinster will produce more potential Pro level players each year but Leinster can only offer a certain number contracts.

If the other provinces were able to say to a player "We can give you an academy slot AND cover your college fees/accommodation for the 4 years" maybe that might make a move to Limerick/Galway/Belfast more attractive?

Paul Smeenus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029435#Comment_122029435

Personally, I'd make every province contribute a very minor part towards central contracts, and use the central money saved to invest in the Ulster, Connacht and Munster academies. No other use in any province.

You're right - "coming close to Leinster" is a misnomer. Not possible. But we aren't producing what we should be producing. Now, we can take one of two approaches - we can holler "just produce more talent" like some asinine "GIT GUD" online provincial fans, or we can run it like a proper concern and invest. Did any part of any business or body actually improve without extra time, effort and money being applied?

Exclamation Marc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029473#Comment_122029473

It certainly reads that way, particularly as they have two prize bands for the Davin Stand but only one for the entire Hogan and Cusack (bar premium).

hold my beer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029435#Comment_122029435

If that was true then Munster or Ulster would never have won a CC in the past, and Leinster would have dominated since the beginning. Sorry Awec, the problem here is not Leinster.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029463#Comment_122029463

Maybe use the money to help the provinces to catch up to where Leinster are with the Schools program churning out players.

FrannoFan

I think because the spending power in England has been reduced the importance of central contracts in keeping the best talent in Ireland has been somewhat forgotten. It wasn't long ago Furlong was strongly considering offers from abroad.

Perhaps a top up style system (like what Murray and POM are apparently on going forward) might feel more equitable but at the end of the day pretty much all the money comes from the IRFU anyway.

And while announcing Barrett the same day Sheehan moves on to a central deal might look like "thats where the money went" in reality those Marquee signings come from private money, same way Snyman and DDA came from the 10-14 club or whatever they were called

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029230#Comment_122029230

I'd agree with that. Far too many of our promising young players waste away years of important development after the u20s, either not playing or playing in amateur games. The pro D2 is proper, tough, professional rugby and a great way to bring through young players. It's obviously impractical to send Irish players there (and the clubs wouldn't really want them) but players like Prendergast and so many more could really do with exposure to real rugby. He might even learn to tackle.

It's a terrible idea for any young Irish player to go there. It's a hyper physical league where you'll be dropped immediately if you start to struggle

This isn't an accurate portrayal of the ProD2. There are 30 regular games a season and away games are pretty much a write-off for most teams. There's plenty of game time to go around and talented players can make an impression even when making mistakes.

Again, it's impractical and incompatible with the lifestyle of a young Irish player who's almost certainly in tertiary education.

Paul Smeenus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029577#Comment_122029577

All the money does come from the IRFU but we don't have one big IRFU balance sheet. We have a central balance sheet and four provincial ones. Billy Burns is hardly a world beater but he's going from one branch of the IRFU (who just simply said, we need to make savings and can't afford you) to another, because of internal budgets.

"Pretty much all the money comes from the IRFU anyway" is true, but it's how that money is then allocated, distributed and spent.

Every province makes a loss. Every province, including Leinster.

pickarooney

The simple solution is for the other Provinces to just go and develop better players to push the Leinster lads off their central contracts. That’s what Leinster decided to do 20 years ago when Munster had the majority of the best players and the CC’s and it’s paying off now. But the fans of the other Provinces don’t want to hear this and don’t want to put the time and effort in, instead looking for a quick fix.

This kind of thing is hand-wavy, bootstrap, nonsense. "Just be better" like "Just don't be poor" or "Just don't be depressed" and patronising shouldawouldacoulda is not only utterly useless to the people it's addressed to, it's smug and unhelpful. If you can't empathise or offer any kind of constructive advice, why not just not say anything?

If Leinster are the 'bad guys' it's not because they win games and produce players, it's because of the self-satisfied attitude of a lot of their fans and their refusal to at least acknowledge the privileged situation of being a Leinster fan in 2024.

awec

In case people think I'm just whinging, here are some things I think are worth looking at. I am looking at this in the perspective of the IRFU are responsible for 4 clubs, and they are responsible for ensuring that all 4 of their clubs have the maximum resources available to them to try and increase the chances of success across all 4 clubs.

Leinster have been in 2 Champions Cup finals in a row, and look odds on for a 3rd. Since the time that another Irish team won the European Cup, Leinster have won 4 (possibly a 5th this year). It should be recognised that investment in the Leinster squad needs to be the absolute bare minimum, they are already head and shoulders ahead of the other 3 clubs. Money will be more impactful to Irish rugby as a whole if it is spent elsewhere.

I think the gap between Leinster and the other 3 is so enormous that there is plenty of scope for changes in how things are done without impacting Leinster's ability to dine at the top table. This isn't about dragging Leinster back, but rather making targeted changes at some of the more luxurious elements of the Leinster setup.

With that in mind

1. Leinster are about to have 10 free elite-level players from the IRFU from next season onwards. These are players paid from the central budget, i.e. they are paid for by all of us. Leinster obviously keep these.
2. In exchange for the above, other funding to Leinster has to be curtailed. In terms of NIQs the Jordie Barrett signing should have been laughed out of the room. Leinster's depth at prop is vastly superior to any other club, so there is no pressing need why they need to replace MA, again that money would be more impactful elsewhere. Snyman, with both Jenkins and Moloney off, is ok so long as he's cheap.
3. In terms of Irish players, the likes of Deegan, Penny etc, the players who don't get near a Leinster first choice 23 but are still good players (i.e. the members of Leinster's 2nd 23), are told they can stay at Leinster if they want but they have to take salary cuts if they do so. If they move, salaries stay as they are. Any savings are diverted elsewhere.

I don't agree with a draft model, I don't think it's necessary.

Unless the funding model switches to looking at Irish Rugby as a whole and investing where it's really needed, and away from the "Leinster win a lot so Leinster keep getting more" model, the circle will never be broken and we'll still be in the same spot 10 years from now.

The dangers for this are huge. There is a real risk that the current system becomes entrenched, we become cemented in this super province + everyone else model we have now. This is going to make it really difficult for U / M / C to attract new supporters. Though I totally understand that this is not something Leinster fans need to care about at all.

People who weren't old enough to support Munster in the 00s or Ulster in 99 have only ever known their team as being also-rans. There's only so long that this is sustainable for. The IRFU need to be really careful here.

FrannoFan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029602#Comment_122029602

Exactly, Clubs who do well financially are rewarded with a greater chunk of what they bring in. It wouldn't be right to give connacht and leinster the same money when leinster are getting 92k through the turnstiles over two weekends and the other has an average 5,500 showing up to watch them each week.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029539#Comment_122029539

AGAIN….

Leinster add about 7-8 players per season to their academy. where do all the other "churned out schools players" go? why arent they going to other provinces? Leinster already provide approx. 20 senior players to the other 3 provinces as it is.

how do you suggest that "money" fixes the production problems in other provinces? what will that money be spent on that isnt being done already? or are you simply talking about buying in players?

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029490#Comment_122029490

I agree, our academy needs a massive boot up the hole. But this is far from the only change that needs to happen. The "invest in academy, produce more players" is just way too simplistic.

If Ulster want to invest more in their academy they need money to do so. Where is this money going to come from? Our squad is already threadbare. We're already firmly a mid table team, and at risk of not even getting into the CC next year. There is no fat to trim.

BoardsMember

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029615#Comment_122029615

What happens to Leinster when they lose ~20 players to Ireland camps?

The next best players have left because they've had pay cuts enforced.

A weakened Leinster team end up without home advantage in knock out matches. Or Leinster have to play the internationals more often than currently, shorter rest periods. Either way, Leinster make less money, Ireland are weakened, so less money comes in.

Paul Smeenus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029616#Comment_122029616

Why wouldn't it be right? It's, as you say "all IRFU money". It needs to maximise its potential.

I guarantee you, if giving Connacht the same money as Leinster produced better international players and results, it would happen. There's no "it wouldn't be right" about it. Ulster function under a number of problems that the other provinces don't face, and the IRFU don't worry about "what's right"; they leave us to get on with it.

gneel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029626#Comment_122029626

Could put money directly into the schools in other provinces. It's very telling in the Leinster SCT when the coaches have Kiwi accents.

Paul Smeenus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029656#Comment_122029656

I've said. Make the provinces contribute to "central" contracts. The central money saved is given to the smaller three academies.

Burkie1203

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029615#Comment_122029615

You make a reasoned argument there but another view around development etc would be Munster at Centre in that time you reference

Halstead, Mafi, Tipoki, Farrell, Frisch, Nankivell, DDA, Fekitoa, Taute, Andrew Smith, Pat Howard, Laulala, Downey, Chambers, Warwick*, Tuitupou, Sam Arnold

• Utility back but did play centre

Sean OBrien is a centre being played on the wing currently, Tom Farrell is on his way.

18 (20 realistically) players brought in, the only players I can recall them developing in that time are Scannell and Goggin.

Its a snapshot of the issues at the centre of the discussion here. Now obviously you need the players to come through at underage level into academy etc but has there been a level of neglect here too? Money is part of the problem but how that's spent is vital. If money is to be thrown at the problem, then it needs to be thrown at a longer term development. Not on short term fixes with no time invested in 10 years down the line.

Jordie Barrett is a luxury, but he is one that's been earned.

clsmooth

@awec

In terms of Irish players, the likes of Deegan, Penny etc, the players who don't get near a Leinster first choice 23 but are still good players (i.e. the members of Leinster's 2nd 23), are told they can stay at Leinster if they want but they have to take salary cuts if they do so. If they move, salaries stay as they are. Any savings are diverted elsewhere.

With regards to this point, do you think people, and they are people like you and me, would be happy to continue playing under the IRFU banner if you tell them they’re getting a salary cut unless they move away from their friends, family and home? I would resent my employer if they did that to me.

Sounds like a great incentive to pack up the bags and retire or travel abroad and work for an employer who isn’t going to coerce you into moving somewhere you don’t particularly want to be. Or maybe you would accept the proposal, rock up, coast and take the money for a few years in response.