Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XII (The Byrne Supremacy)

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030072#Comment_122030072

This.

People are tying themselves in knots to imagine scenarios where a player might be outperforming one on a central contract when we have perfect examples already.

Issue is that it doesn't suit their desired narrative, as it is the likes of Murray holding one for years when he isn't even deemed a guaranteed starter for his province while Leinster are paying for one of the best SHs in the world on a provincial deal. We then have the likes of giving one to Earls over Lowe

AdamD

Paddy McCarthy would be a loss, looks a proper talent.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030519#Comment_122030519

Obviously Barrett will be well compensated but I don't think Robertson is just making up stuff with quotes like the below. Clearly the decision involved more than just money.

“Jordie was very clear from the start around the fact that he wanted to use this sabbatical to improve his game,” said Robertson.

“We will help him achieve that while making sure he is looked after mentally and physically. After months of discussions and collaboration with Leinster, we feel they are the right club to do that. They have a proven track record of creating internationals and helping players achieve their goals".

I wonder if Robertson's relationship with Leinster from their working sessions when he was at the Crusaders and Goodman being a former coach with him helped get his blessing.

Interested Observer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030428#Comment_122030428

Squad replacements:

Deegan → Culhane

Byrne → Boyle/McCarthy/Milne

Murphy → Didn't play much but Gunne

Soroka → Didn't play much and Leinster stacked in the backrow

Ngatai → Barrett + Osborne continuing to develop as a top class option

Moloney → Nobody really, leaves a hole in the squad imo

Jenkins → Snyman

Big Mike → TBD

Burkie1203

Bank of Ireland have signed on for 5 years as main sponsor

RichieRich_89

The thing about the other Provinces having the challenge of developing players good enough to start for Ireland is that it's got a lot more difficult. Twenty years ago the challenge was to produce players good enough for the 5th or 6th best Test team. Nowadays the standard is players good enough for the best or second best Test team. Even if Münster somehow managed to replicate their golden generation from the first decade of this century they wouldn't have nearly as many Ireland starters today. Horan would be a bit part international at best instead of the nailed on starter at loosehead; Hayes would play second fiddle to Furlong; Flannery was a very good player, but not better than Sheehan; Stringer would be miles off JGP; good backrowers and second rowers, yes, but they still wouldn't get as clear a run at it competing with the Leinster options.

So it's difficult for Munster and Ulster. Leinster have raised the bar in terms of the standard of player being produced and the others are struggling to live with it.

Exclamation Marc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030623#Comment_122030623

Is Jenkins off after this year?

Hey_Ho_Lets_Go_3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030663#Comment_122030663

Yes

Hey_Ho_Lets_Go_3

Deeny and COT will have to replace Molony.

If Soroka leaves, Mangan can replace him.

Clegg

Surprised that Leinster still haven't confirmed the squad that has travelled over the South Africa.

Blut2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029435#Comment_122029435

Something that hasn't been discussed on the previous few pages with regard to money is the share of revenue Leinster bring in.

Leinster's average attendance last year in the URC was 18,361, vs 13,720 for Munster, 13,477 for Ulster and 5,504 for Connacht.

Leinster also played more home knockout games (in both the URC and Europe) than any of the other teams, inflating ticket revenue significantly on top of that.

And Leinster presumably also have a similarly inflated share of merchandise, sponsorship etc revenue as the much better supported, more watched, more successful team with by far the largest fan base.

Leinster are most likely already financially subsidizing the other teams in terms of IRFU income % : IRFU spend % as a result.

Purely from a business management POV defunding your best performing business unit, that has the highest revenues and best history of results/success by a long shot, to fund other worse performing units, would be a terrible idea.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030801#Comment_122030801

If we assume this is true, is it not at least partially the case that Leinster are financially subsidizing the other teams in part because the IRFU are financially subsidizing Leinster?

There's no way Leinster would be financially subsidizing anyone if they had to pay for the 10 centrally contracted players that help them win those home knockout games.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030845#Comment_122030845

The IRFU are financially subsidizing ever single province. Can we all just accept that reality?

The difference is the IRFU is getting a good return on their investment from Leinster and the other provinces are various levels of money pits.

Many are calling for more and more resources being taken away from the performing entity and instead be thrown into the money pits - which are in part where they are due to incompetence of their leadership teams over the years.

In the business world it would be deemed utter madness.

AdamD

I wouldn't claim Leinster are subsidising the others. I would say that it's unlikely to ever be a 'level playing field' because Leinster have bigger sponsorship and attendance opportunities and that's just how sport is.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030297#Comment_122030297

The provinces can't outbid each other. That would certainly help Ulster though.

Dubinusa

Amen brother! Let's fcuk Leinster and drag them down a couple of levels. People say they don't want that, but that's exactly what will happen.

Dubinusa

So there's about 500k in salaries there. With Snyman and Barrett coming in that takes up a chunk. Then there's the 2 or 3 promotions.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030801#Comment_122030801

Shocking take! Stop making sense! It's not needed.

Dubinusa

If the rumors are true, then DeKlerk is Ulster bound. There's also rumors that Berman is moving to Ulster. To me, that's a couple of quality players. Leinster apparently offered Kritzinger an academy spot. I would say that he's the least talented of all 3 of them. If it is true, will they make a difference for Ulster? I think Berman would be a starter in a couple of years. DeKlerk also plays 10.

Ben Bailey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029385#Comment_122029385

@"That leaves a hell of a lot of very good raw talent available for other provinces to tout and offer academy / educational pathways to."

By definition this also allows Leinster to tout for talent in Munster, Connacht & Ulster schools. As long as Leinster remain the dominant province, and have their academy & local surrounding educational offerings, the possibility of players choosing Leinster rather than their home province grows. Can't see that being popular.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030801#Comment_122030801

It's been discussed loads.

Leinster bring in more revenue because Leinster have the most money and therefore Leinster have the best team. Leinster play more knockout games because Leinster have the most money and therefore Leinster have the best team. Leinster have more supporters because they're in Dublin, but also because Leinster have the most money and are therefore the most successful, so it's really easy to attract new support, which lets them sell more merchandise.

This is exactly the self-perpetuating unbreakable circle that people are talking about.

Yes, Leinster bring in more money. But it's like someone giving me 100 euro, and someone giving you 1000 euro, and me coming back and saying "look at me, I turned my 100 euro into 150 euro", while you coming back and saying "and I turned my 1000 into 1100, clearly there is no imbalance here and I deserve to continue to get more because I am bringing more back".

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030874#Comment_122030874

The IRFU are financially subsidizing ever single province. Can we all just accept that reality? 

The difference is the IRFU is getting a good return on their investment from Leinster and the other provinces are various levels of money pits.

But they are subsidising Leinster to a far greater extent.

Of course they are getting a good return on their investment in Leinster compared to other teams, they are giving Leinster so much more than the other teams which helps them maintain success.

Again, this is the unbreakable, self-perpetuating circle that people are talking about.

Bogwoppit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030982#Comment_122030982

yeah, I don’t buy that for one second.
If the situation was as self perpetuating as you say then Munster would still be the number one team in the country since the 00’s.
Or, going back further, seeing as Ulster were the first Irish team to win the European cup, how would another Irish team ever better them?

Cullen, Jennings and Cheika dragged Leinster by the scruff of the the neck into the professional era and the foot has been kept on the gas ever since. There is a level of commercial professionalism in Leinster that is key to the province’s success that is completely absent in the other provinces, that factor is not in the slightest down to money.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031026#Comment_122031026

The Munster point was again already addressed.

Munster lucked out in the 00s having a single group of exceptional players come through at the same time. The difference was their success wasn't systemic, it was a one off special team that they produced. Once this team aged they reverted.

The comparisons of Leinster today and Munster of the 00s are wide of the mark. Chalk and cheese.

Comparisons with Ulster in 99 I don't even know where to begin with. Rugby was very different back then.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031041#Comment_122031041

The comparisons of Leinster today and Munster of the 00s are wide of the mark. Chalk and cheese.

Agreed. I've been looking sources of for Central Contract numbers since they were introduced. They're difficult to come back (particularly now going back 20 years), but as far as I can tell, the distribution seems like it's never been anywhere near as imbalanced as it'll be next season. Not even close.

Bogwoppit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031041#Comment_122031041

These things don’t happen by blind luck no matter how much that suits your narrative.
Munster had a blueprint to continue to build on their success through their ail clubs who had a fantastic following with a great culture. They could now have their own production line of talent but through ignorance/incompetence/amateurism/cronyism/arrogance (take your pick) they sat back believing it would continue ad infinitum and let it slip through their fingers.

Bogwoppit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031041#Comment_122031041

Your argument that success breeds success is true, but saying it is an unbreakable vicious circle that has Leinster in a position where they can never be caught is demonstrably false by the given examples along with countless examples throughout sport in general.

This is exactly the same conversation that was in had pubs throughout Leinster in the ‘00’s.
“How can we hope to compete with Munster when they have the Irish 1-10 and what seemed like a production line of talent out of their great clubs?

It’s just not fair!!”

AdamD

Bring back Matt O'Connor and we'll have equilibrium again

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031061#Comment_122031061

the CCs have never been more imbalanced - because the distribution of the best players has never been more imbalanced. The order of these things is crucial.

The repeated assertion by @awec that Leinster have the best players because we get the most money from CC is absolute nonsense. It is literally the opposite of the truth.

Unless we're going back to the days of giving CCs to the Declan Fitzpatricks and Tony Buckleys of the world, this is how it's going to be.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031120#Comment_122031120

The repeated assertion that Leinster have the best players because we get the most money from CC is absolute nonsense.

Where have I suggested this??