Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XII (The Byrne Supremacy)

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031136#Comment_122031136

Apologies, see my ninja edits.

Bogwoppit

I can understand a lot of the viewpoints on the revenues put across by Awec, aloof and others. I may not agree with them but fair enough they seem reasonable.

What I fail to understand is how people can think that a successful Leinster team stacked with talent prevents other teams from producing their own talent like they have in the past. That just doesn’t add up no matter how you look at it.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031149#Comment_122031149

What can we agree on here?

1. Leinster have natural advantages.
2. Leinster are an incredibly well run organisation that have maximised those advantages.
3. As a result of how the IRFU structures central contracts, in conjunction with 1) and 2) above, Leinster now have a disproportionate amount
   of central contracts to a scale that has never happened before.
4. The reduced number of URC games during International windows reduces the need for central contracts.

Is it fair to say that's all objectively true?

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031010#Comment_122031010

We've no idea how much the IRFU is financially subsidizing each province. Loads of assumptions that people seem very certain they're right about but zero details.

As others pointed out, the 'unbreakable' thing is nonsense. You keep trying to disregard Munster as just being 'lucky' but they fitted in the 00s exactly into your explanation of Leinster's current success in your post:

Munster bring in more revenue because Munster have the most money and therefore Munster have the best team. Munster play more knockout games because Munster have the most money and therefore Munster have the best team. Munster have more supporters because they're the most successful team, but also because Munster have the most money and are therefore the most successful, so it's really easy to attract new support, which lets them sell more merchandise.

Munster's luck with players led them to be miles ahead of Leinster when it came to their revenue and fan base at the time, including a huge number of Leinster based fans.

Munster lucked out in the 00s having a single group of exceptional players come through at the same time. The difference was their success wasn't systemic, it was a one off special team that they produced. Once this team aged they reverted.

Munster's success however didnt become systemic because they absolutely squandered the position they were in. Rather than investing in their facilities, academy, and player pathways first, they funneled it into big name signing after big name signing and a white elephant of a stadium, that the IRFU is still to this day bailing them out on. They refused to embrace professionalism and let internal politics lead to some absolutely idiotic decisions, like having half of their team and academy train in a different location.

I've no problem with accepting Leinster has certain advantages but can we please all admit to the reality that a significant proportion of where we are is some terrible mismanagement of the other three provinces?

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031120#Comment_122031120

The repeated assertion by @awec that Leinster have the best players because we get the most money from CC is absolute nonsense. It is literally the opposite of the truth.

Never said this.

Leinster have the best team because they have the most money. Having the most money includes having 10 of your best players paid for you, and not costing you a cent. This allows you to maintain a better squad.

Leinster have the best development pathway because they have the most money. The benefit of not having to pay your 10 best players helps fund this best development pathway (as does having access to the most expensive private schools in the most affluent area in the country, but this is a societal / geographical fact rather than a specific IRFU policy so that's a different discussion).

All of these things add up to Leinster making more money than anyone else, and so the circle continues.

antietam1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031174#Comment_122031174

Have we discussed moneys paid in lieu of central contracts PONI? recharge?, Munster's debt too.

Some of the questions the provinces have need answers alright.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031262#Comment_122031262

What do you know or understand about Munster's debt?

DBK1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030192#Comment_122030192

It’s not taunting, or certainly wasn’t aimed at being that so I’ll apologise if it came across as that, to me it was stating it as it is.

Have you any alternative options that are workable? If not then what are Leinster or the IRFU supposed to do in this scenario?

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031222#Comment_122031222

Your comparison of Munster in the 00s and Leinster today is wide of the mark again, IMO.

A common theme in this discussion is just to go round in circles, before eventually declaring that we just don't have any details.

I suppose every time someone says "the other provinces are just mismanaged" or "Ulster need to sort out their academies" I could just blurt out that we don't have any details about any of this, so there's no point discussing it.

But we have plenty of details. We know more than enough to make informed opinions on this topic.

Here's the facts we know:

1. Leinsters [will] have 10 of their first team, their very best players, paid for them. It costs Leinster nothing to have these players. That's a nice saving on the wage front.
2. We know for a fact that central contracts are financially advantageous to provinces. The evidence for this is clear:
   1. We know that when players like POM and Murray have dropped off central deals that the IRFU have had to give parachute payments to their province to ensure they can actually afford to pay them.
   2. We know that when Stockdale lost his central deal that it was a net loss to Ulster's player budget, since they now had to cover his salary.
   3. The system outlined in Thornley's article makes corroborates how the contract system is believed to work.
3. We know that the sum total of central contracts in the other 3 provinces is 3.
4. We therefore know that the other provinces must pay a much greater proportion of their budget on their first choice 23 than Leinster have to. By extension, this frees up money in Leinster to be spent outside of the first choice 23, in places such as:
   1. Luxurious NIQ signings for squad players (see points 5, 6 and 7)
   2. Money to spend maintaining a comparatively high calibre 2nd choice team
   3. Money to spend in the academy on better coaches, equipment, facilities or whatever else.
5. We know that Leinster have enough money to sign Jordie Barrett, someone who is not cheap yet may not even make the 23. Signing someone who is very much a member of the All Blacks 23 merely to bolster your squad depth is a level of squad building that most clubs in the world can only dream of, never mind Irish provinces.
6. We know that Leinster are in the market for a prop, and we know that Leisnter have been sniffing around the likes of Toupu. When Leinster already have 3 test props in their squad, they're shopping for a 4th test prop. Maybe this deal won't go through, but it's clear what sort of calibre is being sought here.
7. Leinster picked up RG Snyman who'll probably sit on the bench. A player that Munster only afforded via private investment. Yes, I'm sure we'll hear all the talk that he's playing for Leinster for pennies etc.

People will point out Kitshoff. It's a fair point, but there are key differences:

1. Ulster were signing Kitshoff to literally be their best forward. He wasn't coming as squad depth, he wasn't coming to be rolled out in March / April / May for knockout games.
2. Kitshoff was signed to try improve the culture at the club and hopefully bring a winning mentality.
3. Ulster's options in Kitshoff's position are bleak.

It didn't work out, criticism of the signing is fair, it was a mistake and there should be consequences for it. If it were up to me, those who signed off on it would be out the door (and they should have been out the door long ago). But it's also a distraction from the major underlying issue.

The problem with the system goes far beyond the academies at the other provinces. Yes, they are a problem, but they're only part of the problem. Pretending that they are the crux of the issue is convenient, because it gives us a way to say we want to fix things, but we don't really want to fix things (i.e. we're happy to "fix" things so long as it doesn't affect Leinster in any way).

awec

I guess to look at it really simply.

Leinster have various natural advantages due to societal / geographic factors. Not much can be done about that.

The IRFU have two options:

1. Design a system that compounds these advantages so the benefits are magnified. This is today's model.
2. Design a system that seeks to equalise where possible the opportunities for all 4 of their clubs. This requires the model to change.

Former Former Former

This is all bitterness and resentment @awec

Nothing more

Mod: A reminder. Attack the post, not the poster.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031365#Comment_122031365

A strong point, well argued.

We've gone from:

"There's really nothing to see here" → "ok there is, but it really makes no difference" → "ok it does make a difference, but just develop more players" → "we have no details" → "you're just jealous!"

I've said all along, I think changes can be made that do not impact Leinster's ability to compete at the levels they are competing at today. I'm not sure how you lurch from this to bitterness and resentment.

theVersatile

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031365#Comment_122031365

Three provinces plus well versed media personalities such as Thornley are ALL being bitter and resentful?

This is all just blissful ignorance @Former Former Former .

Nothing more

Exclamation Marc

There are so many wild assumptions being made about finances that the only thing that is factual is that nobody has a clue how the IRFU manage or allocate their finances so any claim that one team is being unfairly treated is pointless conjecture.

antietam1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031279#Comment_122031279

That it's it's €10 million now, not to be sniffed at.

sydthebeat

Have to really laugh at the "luxurious NIQ signings" claim.

Since Isa Nacewa joined in 2008 (more than 15 years ago) leinsters 'luxurious' NIQ signings have amounted to, at best, Scott fardy, Nathan hines, rocky elsom (for half a season) and brad thorn (for 3 months).

below that, the world beaters of Zane Kirchner, kane Douglas, hayden triggs, Ben teo, Sean beirne, Matt berquist, Jimmy gopperth, Joe tomane, croked lote tuquiri, Charlie ngatai, Jason Jenkins, Heinke van Der merwe, mike ala'alatoa, Mariano galarza, David Holwell.

Not exactly names that slip from the tongue when making the world's best.

Now, when were in a position to actually sign a high level name (one being in a six month contract, and the other already having been here for four years with another team) there's certs to the heavens of "unfair".

Well personally I say stuff that, at this stage we deserve some luxury given our way.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031378#Comment_122031378

there’s no point making rational arguments with you because you reduce everything to a completely mental conspiracy theory that everything IRFU do is driven by pro Leinster bias. You’re completely gone past the point of rational debate.

So what’s the point?

RichieRich_89

As I see it this "problem" is in large part down to what Lancaster did with Leinster. During Smith's tenure the percentage of homegrown players in the Leinster squad was in the 60s, and I saw one analysis a few years ago that had that percentage trending down year on year over his three seasons. Kiwis like Aaron Dundon and Leo Auva'a could have skewed things a bit. They weren't imports, but were rather called up from the AIL. But even so the 'production line' wasn't anything like it was under Lancaster.

Then there was the MOC era. No-one was saying Leinster were this unbeatable super club then. But you still had all Leinster's 'natural advantages' like feeder schools and so on.

In Cullen's first season, they finished bottom of their Euro pool. No home knockout gates going into the coffers that year. And of course they got outclassed by Connacht in the League Final.

Then Lancaster came in, and while he's not a winner at the very highest level, what he can do in terms of building a squad is remarkable. He had the academy train with the senior players so their development would be accelerated. And his training methods ensured everyone in the squad was prepared to a very high level and able to slot in seamlessly. The number of homegrown players rose to the high 80s. You didn't see signings like Mat Berquist and Clint Newland anymore because the training sessions made sure the next cab off the rank was at a high enough level. And that's it pretty much. The intensity of the training conditioned and upskilled the squad to the extent that a large proportion could hit the ground running at international level even if they were new on the scene.

If Ulster or Munster or Connacht want to do well enough in the Euro pools to get home knockouts and go deep in the competition they should really see if they can get Lancaster in next time they're in the market for a coach.

FrannoFan

I get that it creates a financial imbalance when a team get someone off the books and at the moment it is weighted heavily to Leinster.

But when a player moves onto an Irish contract they generally have their club appearances seriously limited. James Ryan has nearly the same Irish caps as Leinster appearances. Dorris broke through around the same time as deegan and has played around half the number of games.

You don't want a club punished by producing a star that you want to manage so taking them off the books let's Leinster afford a quality replacement.

Also a bit like league of Ireland clubs getting a % of transfer fees when a player moves from club to club in the premier League it could be viewed as a reward to the system.

antietam1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031417#Comment_122031417

Holwell was great, flipped houses when he went back to NZ.

Burkie1203

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031041#Comment_122031041

But is that not the issue now for Munster. Since the HC winning era they have signed TWENTY players (including just signed OBrien and rumoured to be signing Farrell) who have (or can) play at centre. 16-18 years is a long time to not produce anyone remotely capable of any sort of impact at national level in the 12 or 13 shirt.

From outside looking in, they sat on their hands and maybe complacency about it carrying on set in and it wasnt capitalised on?

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031418#Comment_122031418

Again you're being disingenuous and reductive.

Nobody has said this is some IRFU Leinster bias conspiracy. Nobody.

They have said with the system we have in place today Leinster are the only club who are equipped to take advantage of it, and that the system by design will benefit the wealthiest team in a self perpetuating way. That team is Leinster.

And so long as team Ireland and Leinster are doing well the IRFU have little motivation to fix it, because they can point to the fact that Ireland are winning and there's an Irish club competing in elite rugby.

There is a world of difference between this and "the IRFU are driven by a pro Leinster bias."

ulsteru20s

The problems with all these arguments is that fans wil naturally take offense it it is even implied their team has an unfair advantage. Let's remove that entirely.

Let's say irish rugby is an ecosystem and a natural cycle of that system is that leinster produce a surplus of players and they move elsewhere. That is what is expected to happen.

Let's rank players in buckets. The first bucket is elite players. Provinces basically never lose elite players against their will. This is rare and will always be rare. Let's call that A.

The next bucket (B) is the level below. Some guys here will have potential to be elite. Some will just be really good.

In the NORMAL ecosystem, leinster would not be able to keep as many as they are now in bucket B. That's not their fault or even an unfair advantage.

However, while it is true that Ulster and Munster have to do a better job of producing bucket A players and they HAVE to produce them themselves, they will always need to import bucket B players. It is not realistic that either province produces enough of them.

That's the current problem. The push pull factors are currently so weak that almost no one really is leaving to other provinces unless they are below even bucket B.

You could solve this in a few ways but its tricky. You can't and shouldn't force people to move however.

One possible solution is to increase NIQs allowed to maybe 4/5 and be less strict positionally on where they are allowed.

An illustation of the problem is loosehead at munster. Obviously a massive problem. They would imo have one bucket B player and that's basically it. Leinster have 1 bucket A, and maybe 4/5 bucket B looseheads. Again, they shouldn't be forced to leave but also munster can't magically make that weakness a strength in one season.

RichieRich_89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031570#Comment_122031570

You also have to ask the question why Milne is now ahead of Wycherley in the Ireland conversation when the latter was decisively ahead when they both played for Ireland U20s. Is it purely that Wycherley is smallish for pro rugby? Or have Munster not done as good a job developing him as they could have? Put another way, would he be a better player now if he'd spent the past 5 years or whatever it is in the Leinster set up?

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031407#Comment_122031407

So, other than a headline item, you have no understanding of it, yet you think, it's worthy of a mention.

To me, it sounds more like point scoring.

Podge_irl

The Leinster player squad bill is the highest in ireland (and likely one of the highest in europe) and they would not be able to afford it without IRFU support seem reasonably uncontroversial statements to me. Where the water is obviously muddied is central contracts cover international fees but I suspect both are still fundamentally true.

I think it's fair to ask if in another setup leinster would be able to afford to keep all the players they have admittedly developed. It is pretty unique we keep them all.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031343#Comment_122031343

I used your own words that you chose to explain how Leinster are currently successful and they fit nearly 100% with the scenario Munster had in '00s.

You've refused to engage and explain how your own words aren't applicable to Munster of the '00s.

Come on, there is a night and day difference in the level of details we know about the IRFU finances and the provincial mismanagement - it is utterly bizarre to claim different. For example, we all know Munster kept two training basis for years, while you cannot tell me how much the IRFU gives each province.

Some facts you jumped over, presumably because they don't fit your bitter narrative:

• Leinster have had many multiples the number of home knockout games as the other provinces recently – each one a huge payday
  
• Leinster have by a decent amount the highest average attendance numbers of all provinces
  
• Leinster have consistently made knockout stages so bring in far more prize money than the other provinces
  
• Leinster have the biggest population and highest attendance so presumably make the most from merchandise and sponsorship
  
• Leinster have brought in the fewest big name, expensive outside NIQs (Connacht have probably spent less on NIQs, though they signed a big name last summer when Leinster hadn’t for several years)
  
• Leinster have been dealing with little to no debt on their grounds

You're more upset by the guesses you're making about the IRFU finances than actual clear and obvious mismanagement, that destroyed the huge lead Munster should still have to this day and has hindered Ulster and Connacht.

phog

If you were running a company with 4 distinct Business Units, each competing with each other as well as other independent businesses and one of yours was performing much better than the rest.

Would you try to improve the other three by mirroring best practice or just continue as is with one great Business Unit and three struggling Business Units.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031378#Comment_122031378

That's complete BS, you keep refusing to engage in points that are being put to you - including your own words.

You keep saying you dont want Leinster dragged back while every single suggestion you've made to change things 'impacts ability to compete at the levels they are competing at today'. You've either completely lost it or are looking for a rise out of people.

If you weren't an admin you wouldnt get away with that level of posting in the thread of another province like you are.

Mod: Attack the post not the poster.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031558#Comment_122031558

”IRFU won’t do anything to threaten Leinster dominance” is the most reductive argument there is so I guess there’s a pair of us in it.

i find it utterly bizarre that the well run parts of the organisation are somehow the problem here and the toxic omnishambles are the victim. Yet here we are.