Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XII (The Byrne Supremacy)

sydthebeat

Necessity is the mother of invention.

bingobango12

Has it been announced what squad has gone down to SA?

Dont Be at It

Gerry Thornley covering this topic in his article today. Stark numbers re the central contracts. 10 for Leinster and 1 each for the other three provinces.

Also, I'm convinced he reads this thread 🤣

awec

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/2024/04/17/blue-bloods-irfu-national-contract-system-will-continue-to-load-the-dice-in-leinsters-favour/

Maybe Thornley reads Boards?

Either way, he is bang on the money here.

Dont Be at It

Snap, awec 🤣

Hey_Ho_Lets_Go_3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122028934#Comment_122028934

not yet.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122028953#Comment_122028953

Indeed, though he does go into more detail about how it works, which actually confirms my own understanding of how it works.

Leinster will thus not have to pay one cent toward the salaries of 10 frontline international players, whereas the other provinces will have a combined three who fall into this category, and will therefore have to at least partly fund the contracts of nine more players on their rosters.

All male and female players in the XVs and sevens games, including the academies, are centrally contracted to at least some extent by the IRFU. Accordingly, they can all be called up to training sessions, development tours, A games and so forth. Deducting the 12 to 16 players on national contracts leaves circa 160 or so male players with provincial senior contracts. Each contract is underpinned by the union on a scaled payment structure of €50,000, €90,000 or €110,000, and is individually supplemented by the provinces as they see fit or can afford.

TLDR: anyone saying having guys on central deals is not hugely financially advantageous is just wrong.

Hey_Ho_Lets_Go_3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122028945#Comment_122028945

Leinster rewarded for developing players better. Oh the horror.

pickarooney

If Leinster are using Ireland players to generate wins and income in the CC, should they not have to pay a percentage of that income back to the IRFU?

Exclamation Marc

If Leinster lose a lot of players to the national team throughout the year, it's no surprise that the IRFU picks up some or all of the tab on that alone. This year it wasn't so bad but when games used to be played through the Autumn series and Six Nations, Leinster had to rely on other players.

I don't see how any of this is controversial.

Hey_Ho_Lets_Go_3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029017#Comment_122029017

They do. IRFU got most of the gate from Aviva and get most of the winning money.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029042#Comment_122029042

I think it's the other way around. Leinster get most of it, but a portion of it definitely does go back to the IRFU.

KaneToad

The more players Leinster have on CCs, the more players they are without for significant portions of the year.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029050#Comment_122029050

But it's not just CC players who get called up to Ireland camps?

There are like 13 players on a central contract and Ireland camps are 30+ players.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029050#Comment_122029050

This isn't as true as it used to be fair though it is certainly true. Given we're still handily topping the league over the other provinces even with our cover players I think some adjustment is not uncalled for.

I think it's a bit silly leinster can afford cover players like Deegan (unless he's on a ridiculously low salary) but him moving on to potentially another province or potentially abroad isn't going to make a large impact on the general provincial scene in ireland.

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029050#Comment_122029050

So essentially the central contract money is to be used to pay the likes of Deegan, Penny, Ruddock, whichever Byrne is not selected… ?

I can see some logic to it, but at this point the IRFU is basically funding two Leinster teams, no?

I can't see any reasonable long-term solution that isn't massively investing in club rugby. If a handful of schools in Dublin can bring through tens of players prepared for a life in professional rugby, it should be feasible to bring through a similar number from the clubs in the rest of the country. Something like the Toulouse academy, but in Cork or Galway where young players can get access to the best training without going to private school. I know they'd never have quite the level of access the schools have but they could maybe get close enough with a decent pool of players.

Clegg

Media doing the whining of the other provinces for them.

Just want to tear it down out of jealousy.

MangleBadger

We should implement an NBA draft system post school for which prospects go to which academy!

Exclamation Marc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029147#Comment_122029147

We absolutely should not. Arbitrarily shipping 18 year olds around the country is not a good approach.

Clegg

The provinces will never accept a draft system. They want to develop their own players and their own players want to play where they're from.

It's parochial, but it has worked for years.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029127#Comment_122029127

There has been some work in that direction with the creation of the "centres of excellence" around the provinces , but more needs to be done to ensure that young players in Club rugby are getting access to the highest possible levels of coaching.

A combination of regional development centres and more "boots on the ground" in terms of coaching development officers spending increased amounts of time in the clubs making sure that the coaching standards are consistently kept at the highest levels.

Like you say , clubs will never have the physical access to players that schools (especially boarding schools) have but we can do better for certain.

Former Former Former

OK so 13 central contracts next season, if JGP gets one;

Porter, Furlong, Sheehan, Ryan, Beirne, Henderson, VDF, Doris, JGP, Henshaw, Aki, Ringrose, Keenan.

You can look at that list and say that Leinster will have 10 of the 13 and that's outrageous.

But another way to look at the list is to say;

• Nine products of the Leinster academy
• Two project players
• One each from Connacht and Ulster - and the Ulster guy is very likely on his last year
• No Munster-produced players

The only Munster or Ulster-produced player in that list made his test debut in 2012. The Munster guys coming off their central deals made their test debuts in 2011 and 2012, following Keith Earls last year (test debut 2008). I'm pretty sure the only Ulster or Munster player to debut since 2012 and subsequently get a central deal was Stockdale? That's over a decade of tumbleweeds.

Even if we dished out a couple more, who'd get them? Probably Lowe and Hansen first up, i.e. two more SH imports. Maybe then you'd look at McCarthy and Crowley but it's way too early for them.

People can bleat about Leinster's financial advantages and throw out the usual shyte about private schools, but it is self-delusion of the highest order to pretend that the real root problem here is anything other than the utter inability of Munster and Ulster to produce top-level players.

Forcing top players to relocate is a short-term fix, and paying lesser players more and better players less is not a fix at all. This is a problem that has been years in the making and will take years to fix.

The Irish team is the lifeblood of the game here and - rightly or wrongly - the provinces' primary function is to supply players to it. That system has not changed in 20 years. What has changed is the ability of two of the main suppliers to keep up their side of the bargain.

Until the other provinces get their sh1t together in terms of player development, it's all just noise. If we're going to redistribute the money, then let's figure out a way to spend it in a way that will actually help, and not spunk it away on paying mediocre players more.

Interested Observer

Listened to the Indo podcast on the commute the morning and it was just a full hour of whining. Apparently Sam Prendergast should be sent to the ProD2 for some reason? Hard to believe really after the weekend that was.

Clegg

Good summation of the issues facing the other provinces.

Leinster absolutely have financial and geographical advantages. But they're carrying the other provinces wrt player development and progressing to the test side.

DBK1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122028945#Comment_122028945

How is any of this controversial though? The best players in the country are getting paid the best money, it’s hardly unreasonable for that to be the case?

How are Leinster coming out as the bad guys in all of this? They’ve invested well from underage up, going back a long way to when they were practically a laughing stock in Irish rugby. This all didn’t happen overnight, it’s after taking a few generations of players and coaches for it all to come to fruition and now because the hard work paid off they’re being painted as the villains here.

The simple solution is for the other Provinces to just go and develop better players to push the Leinster lads off their central contracts. That’s what Leinster decided to do 20 years ago when Munster had the majority of the best players and the CC’s and it’s paying off now. But the fans of the other Provinces don’t want to hear this and don’t want to put the time and effort in, instead looking for a quick fix.

So what are the other solutions available?

1. Force the lads on CC’s to move to other Provinces to share them equally? Most of them wouldn’t want to move and would probably retire instead so not going to work.
2. Give an equal amount of CC’s to all Provinces? This would mean a lot lesser players getting CC’s over the better players so won’t work either as the better lads will look to move abroad for more money instead which is the opposite to what the CC‘s are for.
3. Give matched funding to all Provinces so every time a player from any Province gets a CC then the other 3 Provinces are given the same amount of money to develop their own players? On paper maybe the fairest solution but where does all the money come from to fund it and what happens when a CC player gets injured playing for Ireland and is out of action? Their Province are without a player while the other 3 still have the money they were provided with for development of their non CC players that didn’t get injured for Ireland so not fair either.
4. Cancel the CC structure and let it be every Province and every player for themselves? I’d assume there’s no explanation needed for how that would turn out.
5. We’re out of options!

I just don’t see how there’s any quick fix solution to the perceived problem here or how Leinster can be seen as the bad guys for putting 20+ years of hard work and money into developing the best players

Clegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029230#Comment_122029230

That's not the first time I've heard that idea floated. I think it was Ruaidhri O'Connor who suggested it the last time as well.

It's a terrible idea for any young Irish player to go there. It's a hyper physical league where you'll be dropped immediately if you start to struggle. It's an en especially bad idea for someone like Prendergast who needs more physical development.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029248#Comment_122029248

theyre also carrying the other provinces in regard to funding the IRFU.

no doubt there is some matrix in the books of the IRFU which show 'income in to expense out' per province and that matrix would be very favourable towards Leinster.

MangleBadger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029153#Comment_122029153

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029168#Comment_122029168

I didn't think I needed to mark this as sarcasm. But do we have many Leinster schoolboys going to the other provinces academies? Because if the other provinces are not producing enough local talent they should definitely be scouting in Dublin schools.

Buer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029147#Comment_122029147

Aside from obvious flaws, wait for the absolute meltdown if/when Leinster got to draft a really highly rated prospect from elsewhere.

The draft system would see a number of guys also leave Ireland. It would potentially be very damaging for Ulster who already experience a massive drain of school leavers to Britain.

Hey_Ho_Lets_Go_3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029315#Comment_122029315

Most leinster schoolboys dont want to play for another province and they certainly dont want to leave Dublin for college.