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Leinster Team Talk Thread (Love you Furlong time)

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,272 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus




  • Posts: 12,836 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    They could be shopping with 300-400k if that didn't sign an unnecessary niq winger..



  • Administrators Posts: 56,219 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    And without wanting to delve too much into hypotheticals, the situation should be even worse too, had Dan Leavy not been so unfortunate with his injury.

    By rights, Leinster should have all of Doris, Conan, VDF, Leavy, Connors, Penny, Deegan and Baird (if you count him as a back row) on the books at back row. Absolute kudos for developing every single one of those players, that does deserve a ton of credit, but it also needs to be recognised that this is an expensive back row to keep. There is more than a whiff of luxury about this.

    But yes, a player's salary should be reflective of his impact at his club. The likes of Deegan and Penny are well down the depth chart at Leinster. If they are happy to continue like this then it should be reflected in the money being paid to them, because that money could be better spent elsewhere on players much higher in the depth chart.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 32,765 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I don't really see it as a fix either though one could at least argue it is more fair.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 17,367 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    Your McCann example just doesn't hold water to be honest - The "backrow contracts aren't all tied up" forever.

    If in a few years time McCann is tearing up trees and is a regular starter for Ireland usurping JVDF from the team then he gets his contract when it expires , just as Joe McCarthy, based on current form will probably take Hendersons slot when his contract expires.

    The opportunity is to help share the demographics better with the other provinces.

    Lets say that Leinster produce a dozen players that are at a level worthy of an academy contract each year , but they only have 6/7 slots available and will choose those slots based on their future positional needs - I'd imagine they will be overloading on scrum-halves in the coming years to try to unearth the long term replacements for JGP and McGrath for example.

    If there was money available to help the other provinces make their offers more appealing as I previously suggested - College scholarship budgets , accommodation costs covered etc. it might make a move to another city more appealing to those players.

    The idea of using financial coercion to get players to move to another province is just terrible from a man management perspective and also probably a breach of employment law.

    The approach needs to be carrot , not stick.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,018 ✭✭✭✭Exclamation Marc


    Is there genuinely a belief that there is some model where all four provinces are equally as competitive as each other?

    Lets say there are twelve central contracts. Will having four centrally contracted players at each province actually achieve or change anything? Will the other provinces magically be filling in the other three semi-final spots? Of course not.

    Central contacts are such an easy stick to beat Leinster and the IRFU with when the reality is that we're talking about the tip of the iceberg of why the other provinces aren't good enough.



  • Administrators Posts: 56,219 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Right, to be clear I am not saying we have to take central contracts away from Leinster. They go to the best players and the best players are going to come from Leinster more often than not. That's not going to change.

    I am saying that everyone else needs to be compensated in some way for the fact that 10 of Leinster's best players are essentially given to them for free, and if needs be, that should mean that cuts are made at Leinster outside of those 10 players to fund it.

    And to be clear, I am saying that I believe these changes can be made while NOT affecting Leinster's ability to compete in Europe or the URC. This is not about dragging them down to our level.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 32,765 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Ah here it is absolutely not a breach of employment law to offer someone more to move elsewhere.

    As to whether it's bad man management, I think it's perfectly fair to offer players what they're worth and third choice players who rarely see a high level 23 man squad dont have massive worth.

    Also the argument, which I think has merit, is that the funding for leinster is too high if they can afford to have such luxury players around.



  • Administrators Posts: 56,219 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Also the argument, which I think has merit, is that the funding for leinster is too high if they can afford to have such luxury players around.

    Yes! Exactly!

    Put far more succinctly than I have managed so far. 😅



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,715 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Let's imagine McCann kicks on in a massive way next year. He has no chance of a central contract, the back row contracts are all tied up in Leinster. 

    This is my issue in microcosm. David McCann, he looks like a really good player and he will hopefully cement his spot in the Ulster starting team. Best of luck to him.

    However, you've jumped from "exciting prospect" to "no chance of a central contract because Leinster". Here's the issue with that.

    1. The guy has yet to feature in an Ireland squad, let alone become an Ireland first-choice. Let's see how he does as an international prospect before we decide if it's all a conspiracy.
    2. The back row contracts are not "all tied up in Leinster" - POM is coming off one and unless I've missed a memo, a new recipient has not been announced, and it's unlikely one will be any time soon.
    3. McCann is at least two years from being in the mix - Van der Flier has two more years on his contract, at which time he'll be 33 and McCann will be 26, should be ideal timing.
    4. Nowhere is it written in stone that we can only have one CC per position. We have three locks and three centres.

    So there's no reason McCann can't get a CC, but your immediate reaction is that he cannot because Leinster have it all sewn up. You have missed the underlying problems and jumped straight to the point where it's all someone else's fault.

    I'm all for change, if the change happens where it is needed.

    Post edited by Former Former Former on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,819 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Would coming through Leinster but playing for another province quell the uproar?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,819 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    You're right. But is this a Leinster problem? Is it Leinsters fault?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,728 ✭✭✭ionadnapóca


    If McCann is good enough to force his way on to the Irish XV. He will 100% get a central contract. Why would he not?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,018 ✭✭✭✭Exclamation Marc


    JGP didn't until now despite being Ireland's number one scrum half for years. Works both ways for/against Leinster



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 17,367 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    The suggestion was to say to a player - "Take a pay cut and stay here or keep your current salary and move there"

    That would absolutely be a potential case for constructive dismissal etc.

    Obviously saying "here's a pay increase to take another role" is no issue , but that wasn't the original suggestion.

    This is the key question.

    We absolutely do not have the money to have 4 separate teams operating at a level that has them competing at the business end of both the URC and CC in most season. We just don't , we're not as bad as the Welsh but we simply don't have that kind of revenue.

    We might have the revenue to have two teams at that level and to be fair Munster were almost there , barring their horrendous squad injury profile over the last two seasons.

    So do we want 4 "balanced" budgets and squads , none of whom are quite good enough to be getting to Semi final/Final stages in the URC and CC every year or do we want to have at least one , maybe two that are??

    And if we decide on the latter model as it would seem we have , does it not make sense for that team to be based in the largest population centre to maximise the opportunity?

    That's not saying that we can't be doing more to ensure we are developing every single possible Pro-player coming out of the clubs and schools which means we need to work make it more attractive and manageable for a promising kid from Leinster to want to take a shot at it in Limerick, Galway or Belfast.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,819 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    But, but... the advantages.... lol

    Seriously, looking at lads that left Leinster, i.e Timoney, loughman, Prendergast it's worked out. I'd say in a few years up the road, Gleeson or Quinn will be CC'd. Ahern a possibility. For Ulster, I would guess that Wilson will be a regular international and be a possible CC. Success breeds more success. Leinster have a good record of bringing along young players and sometimes get it right with NIQ'S. The system is what it is and Leinster with the advantages they have should carry more of the load. In saying that, there's some real top level guys emerging in the other provinces.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,974 ✭✭✭DBK1


    That’s a snippet from a post of mine you’ve replied to. Why did you cut out the rest of the post where I gave a list of what I thought were the options available to sort the problem?

    You didn’t say whether you agree or disagree with any of the options I listed, you didn’t offer any alternatives, instead you took one paragraph and went on a “hand-wavy” rant about the “self-satisfied attitude of a lot of Leinster fans” and looking for constructive advice after cutting out the options that were given.

    I suppose it wouldn’t have suited your narrative of the privileged supporters so you cut out most of the post to turn the narrative to suit yourself.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,819 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Should Leinster be capped at a certain amount of players?



  • Administrators Posts: 56,219 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Professional rugby players are on fixed term contracts. The rules aren't the same.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 17,367 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    That's fair enough - At contract renewal if you say to a player "Here in Leinster you are considered Tier 3 and the offer is X , but Munster/Ulster/Connacht are prepared to offer you a Tier 1/Tier 2 if you'd like to consider them" then that's a reasonable if blunt pathway for "asset redistribution" but the risk in that is that those players simply leave the country for contracts overseas so all the Provinces lose out.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,819 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Are you saying that Deegan and Penny should be paid more to leave for another province?



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 36,368 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    You listed 5 'options' and immediately said why each one wasn't workable (and you were right). If you don't even think any of your own suggestions are viable, why would someone else? It's completely disingenuous.

    There's just no call for taunting fans of other clubs IMO.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,790 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    I think a player can be asked at contract time if there is a need elsewhere, and if they agree to go the IRFU top up a contract with an additional 30k/50k isn't the worst idea.



  • Posts: 12,836 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    image.png

    On the actual Leinster game…

    They have priced over half the stadium as Category 1? Unless Leinster have sent out the wrong information.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,819 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    That's fair. But telling someone they take a payout if they stay is crazy. By the way, from an Ulster pov, where's this money coming from?



  • Administrators Posts: 56,219 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Why is it crazy? Players are offered reduced terms all the time, as decided by their importance, career stage etc.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 32,765 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    They are all on fixed-term contracts. There is nothing stopping them saying exactly that when it comes up for renewal. I doubt anyone is suggesting breaching agreed contract terms.

    Edit: should really read to the end before replying.

    I don't think Deegan or players of his standing leaving is a particularly massive blow to Irish rugby if that is what happens. It's more just in the unfortunate bucket.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,819 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    But are you saying that staying in Leinster means a payout? Moving to another province and its the same pay? Is that even legal?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 32,765 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Might be a case of upper tiers not open on the side stands? Trust them to have weird ass pricing though.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,790 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    Well there is a budget.

    They need a 6/8 and Deegan fits that's bill

    Deegan is way down the pecking order and the question is put to him. If he accepts, he gets paid X by Ulster and the IRFU top it up by way of incentive.



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