Modern Feminism-Good for Society?

hatrickpatrick

Deleted User wrote: »

The idea that a 40-something, upper-middle-class career woman who's been straight through the college-to-politics pipeline is uniquely qualified to speak on behalf of all women by dint of her chromosomes is laughable.

This is the root of most of modern feminism's issues though, assuming modern feminism refers to the intersectional 'identity politics' kind. The people who advocate for this do not see human beings as individuals with independent minds and free will, they see absolutely everything as a collective, they group everyone into pigeon holes based on demographic attributes and then view the entire world through that lense, no exceptions.

That's why concepts such as "male privilege" and "toxic masculinity" are such a huge thing.

That's why this whole "bigotry only counts when it comes from a privileged demographic, therefore #KillAllmen" sh!te is such a huge thing.

That's why all men are to be held responsible when an individual sharing their Y chromosome does something wrong.

That's why something which insults a particular woman is seen as an insult to all women. take for example the sexual imagery on a t-shirt worn by the scientist who landed a satellite probe on the Philae comet a number of years ago. The t-shirt depicted a specific character from a specific anime I believe, but because she was a woman, a massive cohort of internet feminists decided that it represented them, because they share the common attribute of having two X chromosomes.

Essentially, the current incarnation of radical feminism insists that all women and all men respectively are joined by some kind of chromosomal bond. That the actions taken by, or perpetrated against, one individual human, are to be seen as resonating with or having a consequence for every other human sharing that demographic characteristic.

The problem is that the vast majority of men simply don't see the world this way and never will, no matter how much feminists attempt to bully us to. Some random male scumbag does something violent? Unless he's a family member, colleague or friend, his actions are literally nothing to do with us.

The man who murdered Sarah Everard, for example (assuming of course that the crime was committed by the suspect currently in custody) is the absolute scum of the Earth and deserves to be locked up until he is old and frail, at the very least.

But I don't know him. I'm not related to him. I've never met him. He doesn't even live in the same country that I do. His actions are not a part of my life story in any way, shape or form, because of those factors. And therefore, I fundamentally reject any suggestion that I am in any way complicit in his behaviour just because we both happen to be two of several billion humans who have a bollocks and a cock as opposed to ovaries and a vagina.

This is the problem with the recent campaign demanding that all men "do something" about this. Good people do not associate with scumbags. Good men do not have such monsters in their group of friends. So what exactly are we supposed to do? Vigilantism? Sure, I'd like to think I'd intervene if I saw someone (of either gender) being violently attacked or abducted. At the very least, I'd certainly call the Gardaí, no question about it (and have done on two occasions on nights out in Dublin). But telling men that our entire culture (as if we have some kind of hive culture to begin with!) is a blot on the Earth because random strangers who share our configuration of reproductive organs are monstrous psychopaths? ....No. That's where most of us switch off and draw a very firm line which says "everything after that statement is bullsh!t".

It's fundamentally a difference in how feminists and non-feminists see the world. Maybe there's a gender divide there too, but I'm not sure there is, to be honest, I think it's more of an evenly spread ideological thing.

Some people view the world in terms of demographic collectivism. Others view the world in terms of individualism. The problem is that feminism subscribes to the former ideology and is hostile, intolerant or sometimes even just downright ignorant of the existence of people who subscribe to the latter ideology.

I fundamentally believe that for me, a man, to say "I feel no affinity, common ground, or shared 'team' with the man who committed this murder" is something which a lot of the feminists commenting on it will either not believe, or not understand. They seem to view the world entirely along the lines of "you have a Y chromosome and a cock and a bollocks, so does the scumbag who did this, what have ye as a group got to say for yourselves? This was done by one of your own". No, it wasn't. There is no "our own", there's just me. And there's another guy. And another guy. And yet another. And literally none of us feel like we're part of "Team Man" or whatever, we're just individual lone wolves going through life and taking it issue by issue, day by day, individual person by individual person.

The sh!te part? Within that framework, we should all be united in condemning individual human beings who are sh!t to other individual human beings. But at the moment we can't be, because too many outspoken people want to make everything done by a single, individual human being, something which is personal to every other single, individual human beings who happen to share demographic attributes with that individual.

Collectivists will relate to and understand that, but individualists will not. And in my view, the vast majority of men and women are not collectivists. Feminists and identity politics advocates are, but their mistake is assuming their world view is the one and only correct world view, and that either everyone else automatically sees the world the way they do, or everyone else is wrong. It just doesn't work like that.

Tell me how

^^^
I pay a lot of attention to current affairs type of discussions and have genuinely never heard of this #killallmen which is apparently such a huge thing.

Wanting to view the world solely in terms of individualism is a cop out. Don't get me wrong, individualism is a very relevant ideal and ultimately we are all responsible for our own actions but that does not mean that there aren't collective norms which exist and which we contribute to. And also, its worth mentioning, but many on here categorise feminism very much as a collective across several different frameworks; identity, credo, support, language etc and yet are abhorrent and the same being applied to men. This is literally doing the exact thing that you are complaining about feminists doing.

In respect to your efforts to deflect from the Sarah Everard incident and the public reaction after it, no one (at least statistically speaking), male or female, is saying that all men are directly responsible for the actions of the person who attacked and killed Sarah Everhard but what many are saying is that so many women have being targeted in some way that has made them feel uncomfortable that they frequently cannot plan their day/night how they travel, what they wear, where they go without putting some effort in to thinking about reducing the risk of unpleasant incidents. And this doesn't mean an incident where they are attacked but just one where they are made to feel uncomfortable.

That is why the example previously written by Melissa Reddy was relevant, for a couple of reasons. 1, it clearly made her uncomfortable and her experience was dismissed entirely by some here as being an over reaction which gives some indication how these people would react if someone close to them had such an experience. 2, in relation to the 'collective' term, I suspect again some will say that it was solely the responsibility of the individual who flashed her and thereby absolve the other 4 people who were with him as having nothing to do with it. I would guess that he did it because he knew they wouldn't say or do anything to stop him and so, when the journalist experienced this, she saw not only 1 person flashing her, but 4 others enabling him (I bet you love that term). That I think is why women are asking all men to help in improving society, not because they think everyone will flash them, or grab their ass or talk about their tits, but the ones standing by laughing or ignoring the one doing this are helping him to feel it is acceptable.

Tell me how

Here is someone looking to talk to males about their experience in this space.
This is an opportunity to have your voice heard.

https://twitter.com/jenoconnell/status/1375430191632281600

Silentcorner

Tell me how wrote: »

Here is someone looking to talk to males about their experience in this space.
This is an opportunity to have your voice heard.

https://twitter.com/jenoconnell/status/1375430191632281600

I've no idea who that one is, but if she is a feminist we all know what the article will involve..."traditional masculinity hurts our boys" or some such nonsense...it's predictable, however if she has a genuine interest in the different dynamic of growing up as a boy or young man around other young men then she will be a lot more honest than the rubbish media outlets publish day in day out!!!

Life is a journey of personal responsibility and self improvement for everyone, the pressure of life can get to the best of us...pointing the finger at things like masculinity is obscene nonsense .... it's like an alcoholic blaming the availability of alcohol for their disease....it's no wonder our society is riddled with anxiety and mental health issues, where it wasn't 20 years ago.

Tell me how

Silentcorner wrote: »

I've no idea who that one is, but if she is a feminist we all know what the article will involve..."traditional masculinity hurts our boys" or some such nonsense...it's predictable, however if she has a genuine interest in the different dynamic of growing up as a boy or young man around other young men then she will be a lot more honest than the rubbish media outlets publish day in day out!!!

Life is a journey of personal responsibility and self improvement for everyone, the pressure of life can get to the best of us...pointing the finger at things like masculinity is obscene nonsense .... it's like an alcoholic blaming the availability of alcohol for their disease....it's no wonder our society is riddled with anxiety and mental health issues, where it wasn't 20 years ago.

So if she writes something you don't agree with, she's a feminist but if you agree with it, then she's just being honest?

Get involved, or don't, but here is someone (a woman) looking for men to have their say so maybe consider that her article will be based on what men say to her.

Your analogy in your final point actually proves the point. I have frequently seen and heard people who struggle with alcoholism (and others) lament the fact that many Irish culture and events are influenced by the consumption of or presence of alcohol.

And while you think that society today has anxiety and mental health issues that didn't exist several years ago, A, the evidence would suggest that people had mental difficulties in the past, they just didn't have an outlet to deal with them and B, society now, (mostly because of what the internet has done) is very different to 20 years ago. We can't keep discounting things today based on the norms of the past.

Silentcorner

Tell me how wrote: »

So if she writes something you don't agree with, she's a feminist but if you agree with it, then she's just being honest?

Get involved, or don't, but here is someone (a woman) looking for men to have their say so maybe consider that her article will be based on what men say to her.

Your analogy in your final point actually proves the point. I have frequently seen and heard people who struggle with alcoholism (and others) lament the fact that many Irish culture and events are influenced by the consumption of or presence of alcohol.

And while you think that society today has anxiety and mental health issues that didn't exist several years ago, A, the evidence would suggest that people had mental difficulties in the past, they just didn't have an outlet to deal with them and B, society now, (mostly because of what the internet has done) is very different to 20 years ago. We can't keep discounting things today based on the norms of the past.

What I said was if she is a feminist her article will be predictable, what am I basing that on? Every other article a feminist has written about men/masculinity....I don't think there has ever been a more predictable ideology than feminism....she may not be...maybe she will run an honest article on masculinity and how our society requires a healthy balance of it in our education system and broader society...

I've no interest in getting involved with any media outlet, she is just filling space on a website for a media company that is on the way to financial ruin.

Anybody who blames culture or society for their struggles will never deal with the root causes....it is weak minded to point the finger away from oneself....the younger a person learns that the better their outcomes in life.

I detest this pathetic weak culture of victimhood....especially in the era of the internet and social media...it's become social currency...it's weird and unhealthy.

Good luck to anyone who succumbs to it...you're going to need it!!!

Tell me how

Silentcorner wrote: »

What I said was if she is a feminist her article will be predictable, what am I basing that on? Every other article a feminist has written about men/masculinity....I don't think there has ever been a more predictable ideology than feminism....she may not be...maybe she will run an honest article on masculinity and how our society requires a healthy balance of it in our education system and broader society...

I've no interest in getting involved with any media outlet, she is just filling space on a website for a media company that is on the way to financial ruin.

Anybody who blames culture or society for their struggles will never deal with the root causes....it is weak minded to point the finger away from oneself....the younger a person learns that the better their outcomes in life.

I detest this pathetic weak culture of victimhood....especially in the era of the internet and social media...it's become social currency...it's weird and unhealthy.

Good luck to anyone who succumbs to it...you're going to need it!!!

And I suspect you won't be the only one who will rubbish what they write, but won't engage with them when they specifically reach out with an opportunity to give your side of the story.

Once again you are doing something that you and others are complaining about. I suspect you agree with others on this thread complain about feminism and the impact it has on the lives of men and here you post this statement.

Anybody who blames culture or society for their struggles will never deal with the root causes....it is weak minded to point the finger away from oneself....the younger a person learns that the better their outcomes in life.

So is feminism a problem which needs to be called out? Or is call it out avoiding dealing with the root cause an is weak minded to point the finger away from oneself?

This is a question not just for you, but for others on the thread who have expressed their dislike of feminism in vehement terms.

Silentcorner

Tell me how wrote: »

And I suspect you won't be the only one who will rubbish what they write, but won't engage with them when they specifically reach out with an opportunity to give your side of the story.

Once again you are doing something that you and others are complaining about. I suspect you agree with others on this thread complain about feminism and the impact it has on the lives of men and here you post this statement.



So is feminism a problem which needs to be called out? Or is call it out avoiding dealing with the root cause an is weak minded to point the finger away from oneself?

This is a question not just for you, but for others on the thread who have expressed their dislike of feminism in vehement terms.

All feminists write different versions of the same thing...it is infantile and shallow, devoid of logical consistency and headed up with an emotive headline...the disdain they receive is well earned....I feel sorry for the individuals who haven't yet copped on that you don't need a media outlet to shape your thinking....the media industry is as healthy for an individual as the fast food industry.

I think feminism's impact on both genders won't be healthy...it's part of a broader victimhood culture that isn't healthy for anyone or any institutions or industries, let alone individuals.

dotsman

Tell me how wrote: »

You're proving here that it took women advocating for improvements in how they were viewed and treated to bring that even close to being added to the constitution, but calling the latest phase of this MS like metoo and social media.

I don't think you understand this, and I can't think of any way to explain it in more simpler terms. Besides, I'm not allowed #mansplaining.

Tell me how wrote: »

As with other currents affairs topics, I suspect if you were around in the 60's you'd have been telling those women to pipe down also in the same way the recent arguments against BLM were also used against MLK and others.

MLK would have been strongly against BLM, but you're just dragging this off topic by bringing that up.

Tell me how wrote: »

So you see the argument for segregated age and weight groups and that the funding in to such is an investment recognizing that those participants are benefiting from money earned on the back of other groups but don't accept that womens teams should have adequate facilities with the money coming from the same pot?

But the investment in underage teams sees a return. Giving money to women's teams with no return is not an investment, Again, I don't know how I can explain this in simpler terms.

Tell me how wrote: »

And you are still conflating this particular issue which happened in a college environment as opposed to a professional set up and as such their focus should be on optimizing the preparation of all participants, not effectively ignoring an entire gender.

The players may not be professional yet, but the money is still huge.

Tell me how wrote: »

That word was coined by someone who wanted to highlight that some women were being killed because they are women. We know that this happens. I don't see this word overused in any way like you seem to suggest it is. If you think there should be a comparable word for the killing of men, propose one, that is what Diana Russel did.

It is used because now every murdered woman is "femicide", regardless of reason (when the vast majority of the time it is not because they are women). I don't want to make up a term. I'm not some cnut who wants to create new words when there are already perfectly adequate existing words, especially when the only reason to do so would be to distort facts and logic.

Tell me how wrote: »

Not necessarily. While more men are subjected to violent crime, they are also typically in a better position to put up resistance than your average woman.

How so, and why are you promoting victim blaming?

Tell me how wrote: »

A single bill, passed by 94 votes to 6 in a Dail of 160 seats does not exactly confirm that feminists hate sex workers. Advocates for such a bill would argue that they were doing so because of the exploitation suffered by many in that industry and so they would say, that they care more about them than those advocating that it be allowed to continue. I am not saying they are right, I have no doubt that there are some in the industry entirely by choice, but I also suspect that there are many who this is not the case for. In the Netherlands, where prostitution is legal, human trafficking's for that purpose is still a big problem.

The only reason trafficking exists in prostitution is because it is underground. Bringing in laws to drive it further underground only makes it worse. I find it hard to believe that anybody supporting the law actually believed that. The trafficking problem is, again, another case of feminists "owning" an issue to drive their own agenda.

Tell me how wrote: »

Take your average run of the mill drunken banter, now add to that a scenario where one party is used to the other being excessive, taking it too far, being violent. Still think that things are equal?

There you go again, grouping all men together, so you can justify a BS argument.

Tell me how wrote: »

Who's talking about feelings?

em...

Tell me how wrote: »

Speaking of hijacking feminism, or the use of the word, your post does exactly that with the dismissal of articles, newspapers, journalists solely on the basis of your feeling about what it is or what it represents.

you?

Tell me how wrote: »

What I have seen on Boards is many people getting aggrieved at any suggestion that problems be considered as something everyone must work on to fix. The #notallmen hashtag started trending on Twitter in parallel with Sarah Everards name as people looked to absolve themselves from the conversation.

I pay no heed to what's on twitter, so can't comment. But can definitely assume it is BS that defies logic and facts.

Tell me how wrote: »

You say that these issues are for all people, but disagree that in an education environment, that the provision of equipment should be done more collectively which seems to be a selective position to take on that topic.

Are you saying that every primary school should have the same library as a university? Even within the university system, are you saying every university should have the exact same facilities? Do you not understand that the concept of sport is competition and focusing on the best? Or should everyone get a medal for participating?

Tell me how wrote: »

The way I view what a lot of women advocates have done is they have identified an issue for their gender, and decided to speak up, gain support, create a position and a voice and call for change. It took them nigh on 30 years to achieve this in terms of repealing the 8th in Ireland, but they did it. We have seen that as with civil rights in terms of race, significant progress was often only made when people finally managed to raise their voice to a level that everyone sat up and took notice.

Maybe if they hadn't made it a "women's issue", it might have happened a lot sooner. You do realise that that pretty much just as many men are pro-choice as women? And those men sure didn't come to that opinion because feminists sold the idea to them. So if feminists actually did anything to "win" that vote it was only because they convinced other women who would have otherwise would have been anti-choice.

Tell me how wrote: »

And now, because they have been successful in their advocacy, others are targeting them and trying to undermine their right to do so. We saw it last summer with the 'All Lives Matter' response to BLM, where were the 'All Lives Matter' people when black people were being disenfranchised?

Who's been successful in what? Feminists in promoting hate and unhappiness? Successful in making people's brains hurt as they try to understand feminist arguments?

Tell me how wrote: »

I'm very suspect of people who only demand equality when they perceive that they might actually be about to lose out on something.

Well, I'm glad you have eventually agreed that feminism is not about equality.

Tell me how

^^
Have seen this but don't feel it warrants a detailed response, you are of the opinion everything I say defies logic and facts, and everything you say is so obvious doesn't need explaining, and no doubt you'd say the same about me.
I've already answered many of your questions already in my posts here in any case.

Tell me how

Silentcorner wrote: »

All feminists write different versions of the same thing...it is infantile and shallow, devoid of logical consistency and headed up with an emotive headline...the disdain they receive is well earned....I feel sorry for the individuals who haven't yet copped on that you don't need a media outlet to shape your thinking....the media industry is as healthy for an individual as the fast food industry.

I think feminism's impact on both genders won't be healthy...it's part of a broader victimhood culture that isn't healthy for anyone or any institutions or industries, let alone individuals.

I don't feel I need to add anything to what you've already said.

Silentcorner wrote: »

Anybody who blames culture or society for their struggles will never deal with the root causes....it is weak minded to point the finger away from oneself....the younger a person learns that the better their outcomes in life.

Sleepy

Tell me how wrote: »

There is no evidence that society values women more than men. Men still hold most positions of authority and are more likely to be well paid. Most of the prominent voices in the media (which you mistakenly suggest is entirely feminist focused) are men and the owners of the corporations which run them are too still more likely to be men. Most of them also of a conservative nature.

Average Life Expectancy in Ireland for women is 84.1 years for men it's 80.5.
43.2% of women are educated to third level compared to 40.7% of men
Public spending on, and charitable organisations funding for, womens health issues dwarves that spent on mens health issues.
The suicide rates per 100k of population was 13.8 for men compared to just 3.4 for women.
The NWCI receives roughly 1m a year in funding from the government, there is no equivalent for men.
Women are entitled to 26 weeks’ maternity leave, men get just 2 weeks paternity leave.
The injury rate in the workplace in Ireland is 27.1 per 1000 for men versus 17.2 for women, workplace deaths is even more skewed: just 2 of the 46 workplace deaths in 2019 were women.

That looks like a society that values female lives more than male ones to me...

Your final message about a breeding ground for angry disaffected young men is a dangerous one and unfortunately one that I think has some basis in truth but unfortunately I think most of the motivation in this direction is coming from men (young and old) who see any advocacy or advancement for women as meaning that they are going to lose out is a similar 'anti-progression' narrative we have seen in those on the conservative side of other current affairs topics.
And there are cohorts of young men who seemingly find solace in 'Incel' and 'MGTOW' chat rooms where they collectively blame women and feminism for the fears and failures they experience for no other reason than it is natural to have knocks and falls in life.

And while there is no question but that there are some women who do blame men and seek to be a victim in the same way but they, as a gender, seem to currently have found a way to be much more supportive towards each other and to form groups to help each other out than what we see happening amongst men.

As has been discussed before, there are several cases in which men could justifiably advocate for to see efforts and supports to help themselves and others from suffering or losing out but for the most part, at least on here, what we seem to see is that it is limited to blaming feminists for creating a society in which they are reaping all the benefits while the men are suffering and this is both incorrect and misguided.

Ah, we're back to the "it's men's fault for not advocating for themselves" argument. It utterly misses the point tbh. Mens rights groups are usually attacked by feminists whenever they try to get off the ground and, ultimately, are just as wrong-headed an approach to achieving equality as feminism.

Equality isn't a zero sum game and having separate mens and womens movements to fight for their own interests is only ever going to lead to conflict and a swinging pendulum of inequity. Rather than arguing for further preferential treatment for women and painting men as the enemy, feminist groups should be disbanded to allow the emergence of a new movement that could advocate for equality and gender neutral laws.

Wibbs

Sleepy wrote: »

That looks like a society that values female lives more than male ones to me...

The thing is Sleepy, pretty much all societies over time have "valued" and "protected" women over men. Human societies overwhelmingly value in this order; children, women, men. Men have always been the disposable gender in work and war. Now how women were "valued/protected" varied massively. In the most patriarchal sexist societies women were/are "valued" to the degree they're essentially prisoners of those societies, cloistered away and constantly under surveillance, a precious commodity owned by the society and men. It's why a religious Saudi Arabian will regard western attitudes to women as alien. To that mindset they are protecting women and think western attitudes and societies don't. That Western society has at least in the case of modern "feminism" kept the protection and value aspects going should come as no surprise.

Wibbs

Actually you can see this shift having an evolution of sorts. The Suffragettes actually campaigned for women to be treated equally in the justice system and this included capital crimes. They campaigned that women should be hanged for the same crimes as men. Society was again disposed to treating women less harshly so fewer women were condemned to death than men. The Suffragettes wanted actual equality there. Fast forward to today and "feminism" argues for fewer women in prison for the same crimes as men and indeed women are less likely to serve custodial sentences and have shorter terms handed down when they are. So ironically we're back to the pre Suffragette viewpoint on that score.

biko

US Women's soccer pay claims.
This man says they got paid more than the men.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLeAWuRbObQ