Modern Feminism-Good for Society?

John Doe1

I personally believe that the pioneers of Feminism have brought about fantastic change in the western world and brought women to an equal footing today. However, the modern variant just seems just so toxic and divisive for society.

There are so many myths propagated by it, the gender wage gap being the main one. if companies were paying their female employees less than men for the same job with the same experience they would be sued out the eyeballs every day. Not to mention, the fact that women choose different jobs(i.e lack of representation of women firefighters/bin men)

Modern Feminism also ignores the rights of women in Islamic countries or the disproportionate sexual assaults caused by Muslim immigrants because it doesn't fit nicely into their narrative. if they really cared about gender equality this would be cause number one rather than spending their time complaining about manspreading and pretending OnlyFans performers are feminist icons.

This Time article by Christina Hoff Sommers explains things pretty well

https://time.com/3222543/wage-pay-gap-myth-feminism/

But, I'd love to be proven wrong so..

Smee_Again

Anything that promotes equality is good for society.

EmmetSpiceland

John Doe1 wrote: »

However, the modern variant just seems just so toxic and divisive for society.

When you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

biko

There is no position today in civilised countries that is not open to women. The suffragettes made it happen.

Potential-Monke

I don't follow or understand these movements or political ideas (still don't know the difference between right and left, and frankly I couldn't give a damn). Treat everyone the same, don't be a cnut. Simples.

dotsman

Smee_Again wrote: »

Anything that promotes equality is good for society.

Feminism isn't about promoting equality. The clue is in the name.

Op, to answer your question - no; modern feminism is a vile, hate-filled, almost religious-like view that causes tremendous harm to men, women and society as a whole.

But you are not allowed to proffer anything against it. Otherwise you are a misogynistic sexist pig.

Your Face

Boobs

Ultrflat

Your Face wrote: »

Boobs

In bra's or are they being burned in a heep out side some gentlemen's club?

Smee_Again

Smee_Again wrote: »

Anything that promotes equality is good for society.

Sometimes you have to look under the bonnet a bit more though and see if there's an actual issue

Mr. CooL ICE

I knew a woman once, but she died

Church on Tuesday

I have a lot of respect for the first wave of Feminism. Obviously there should be equality regardless of gender, background, color of skin, physical ability (within reason).

But the newer variants are simply vehicles for hate and quite damaging too.

the beer revolu

My only real issue is that many women today turn everything into a gender issue.
I see it here, where any negative experience with a man is labelled as misogyny.
Sometimes people are just cnuts, irrespective of their gender.

But polarisation of everything seems to be the way, now.

But, mostly I'm all for feminism.

Tombo2001

John Doe1 wrote: »

I personally believe that the pioneers of Feminism have brought about fantastic change in the western world and brought women to an equal footing today. However, the modern variant just seems just so toxic and divisive for society.

There are so many myths propagated by it, the gender wage gap being the main one. if companies were paying their female employees less than men for the same job with the same experience they would be sued out the eyeballs every day. Not to mention, the fact that women choose different jobs(i.e lack of representation of women firefighters/bin men)

You are having a laugh there surely

ThewhiteJesus

Eoghan Mcdermott is a feminist, what does that tell you ?

Wibbs

Smee_Again wrote: »

Anything that promotes equality is good for society.

It would be if it did.

Modern Feminism: Women are always agentless victims and it's always men's/the patriarchy's fault.

Even on the rare occasions where men are acknowledged as victims, it's because of the patriarchy, or "toxic masculinity", so it's still somehow their fault.

It's long passed by equality and is like so many isms and political positions of all stripes these days steeped in identity politics, the oppressed/oppressor narrative and prays in the church of the Eternal Victimhood, with plenty of mouthpieces looking to foster more division and gain attention and financially from it.

QV:

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

When you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

It doesn't stand up to much in the way of deeper scrutiny of many of its basic tenets, tenets that used to be the preserve of the fringes and extremes, but are now mainstream. It also pulls the move of conflating historical and indeed current elites with the average person on the street. EG "the number of male CEOs and billionaires DWARFS the number of womxn CEOs and billionaires!!!!" The number of billionaires fullstop is an absolutely tiny percentage of the world's population and is an empty comparison, but facts don't appeal to the acolytes and the dim of any identity politic.

Put it another way; among average everyday people, which gender is more likely to die younger, be killed at work, be physically assaulted, be homeless, be addicts, be more suicidal and carry that to its unfortunate end, be unemployed, have lower educational outcomes, fewer social and financial resources, be treated less favourably in law, including in the event of divorce? I'll give ye a hint, it's not women. The only metric where women figure higher in the stats is in sexual assault.

jimgoose

EmmetSpiceland

Men: the real victim.

It’s okay, I feel you. It’s not easy being a cis, whyte, heterosexual male aged 18-49 these days. Not easy at all. Cant even look at, let alone talk to, a woman.

SnazzyPig

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

When you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

That should just about fit on a T-shirt, made by a 10-year old girl in Bangladesh.

meeeeh

Feminism
Bin men
Gender gap
Islam
Porn

Topics that haven't been discussed at least for a month in the same post... I don't care if people complain about feminism but can we have less clichés. You are not the first one who thought of those arguments so if you intend to make them at least improve the quality. Instead we get the same argument that there is no pay gap because only men are collecting bins. As for Islam, there are people who will reply to 'Is it raining?' with 'yeah but it's raining in Muslim countries too.'

Leg End Reject

I'd agree with Wibbs. There was a time when feminism was relevant, but it's jumped the shark now.

I'm all for gender equality, but it should come from the honest starting point of acknowledging that there are differences between the 2 genders, and those differences influence behaviours, outlook and social interactions.

The last thing I would like to be described as is "masculine", appearance or behaviourwise. :eek:

keano_afc

I find the most ironic thing about "modern" feminism is that many of its proponents cant even define what a woman is without wanting to include biological males.

meeeeh

keano_afc wrote: »

I find the most ironic thing about "modern" feminism is that many of its proponents cant even define what a woman is without wanting to include biological males.

I was actually thinking to myself that op forgot to stick trans issues somewhere in the post.

Well it didn't take long...

Tell me how

Wibbs wrote: »

It would be if it did.

Modern Feminism: Women are always agentless victims and it's always men's/the patriarchy's fault.

Even on the rare occasions where men are acknowledged as victims, it's because of the patriarchy, or "toxic masculinity", so it's still somehow their fault.

It's long passed by equality and is like so many isms and political positions of all stripes these days steeped in identity politics, the oppressed/oppressor narrative and prays in the church of the Eternal Victimhood, with plenty of mouthpieces looking to foster more division and gain attention and financially from it.

QV:


It doesn't stand up to much in the way of deeper scrutiny of many of its basic tenets, tenets that used to be the preserve of the fringes and extremes, but are now mainstream. It also pulls the move of conflating historical and indeed current elites with the average person on the street. EG "the number of male CEOs and billionaires DWARFS the number of womxn CEOs and billionaires!!!!" The number of billionaires fullstop is an absolutely tiny percentage of the world's population and is an empty comparison, but facts don't appeal to the acolytes and the dim of any identity politic.

Put it another way; among average everyday people, which gender is more likely to die younger, be killed at work, be physically assaulted, be homeless, be addicts, be more suicidal and carry that to its unfortunate end, be unemployed, have lower educational outcomes, fewer social and financial resources, be treated less favourably in law, including in the event of divorce? I'll give ye a hint, it's not women. The only metric where women figure higher in the stats is in sexual assault.

Don't suppose you have a link for the first bit in bold?

As for the second bit, if this is the case, and I am not suggesting that it isn't so for any or all of them, there's a lot in there, why do we never see a focus on overcoming these issues on here, raising awareness about them, getting government organisations to act in relation to them, support groups being formed etc. Time and again (and my God has it been time and again on here lately) there are threads lambasting various 'liberal' activist ideals, feminism today being the latest to be targeted.

Say what you want about these liberals, feminists included, but one thing they have shown themselves to be capable of doing is activating and advocating and building support and ultimately seeing action being taken, slow and all as it can be. And almost exclusively to be met with derision and insults for doing so, and often to be dismissed with these claims that 'Oh but men have it way worse'. If they do, why not try and do something about it? Is it a fear of appearing on the 'Wokeism of the day thread' Or maybe being accused of being the lowest of the low, 'a Social justice warrior'.

And for anyone who comes in with cries of the MSM and how they would react to men trying to help themselves and each other, have a look at how one young female activist is treated, her mural didn't last 24 hours before it had a bucket of paint thrown over it and everyone from high profile media people to the President of the United States had a go at her for trying to raise awareness, and yet, she, and others like her persist and don't stop just because someone tells them they should.

If people aren't happy with how things are, why do some focus their efforts in complaining about other people who are advocating for improvement in one way or another rather than trying to change or help that thing which they feel is not ideal?
Answers on a postcard please.

FunLover18

John Doe1 wrote: »

I personally believe that the pioneers of Feminism have brought about fantastic change in the western world and brought women to an equal footing today. However, the modern variant just seems just so toxic and divisive for society.

There are so many myths propagated by it, the gender wage gap being the main one. if companies were paying their female employees less than men for the same job with the same experience they would be sued out the eyeballs every day. Not to mention, the fact that women choose different jobs(i.e lack of representation of women firefighters/bin men)

Modern Feminism also ignores the rights of women in Islamic countries or the disproportionate sexual assaults caused by Muslim immigrants because it doesn't fit nicely into their narrative. if they really cared about gender equality this would be cause number one rather than spending their time complaining about manspreading and pretending OnlyFans performers are feminist icons.

This Time article by Christina Hoff Sommers explains things pretty well

https://time.com/3222543/wage-pay-gap-myth-feminism/

But, I'd love to be proven wrong so..

So your two examples of the toxicity and divisive nature of modern feminism are something that you don't believe in and something they're not even addressing?

Women have all the same rights men do, plus:

• Women have far more rights over their children than men do.
• Women have far more health screening programmes aimed at them than men do (the cervical smear scandal notwithstanding) despite having a longer life expectancy.
• Women have all sorts of positive discrimination hiring policies in place - a woman in STEM will have companies fighting to hire her over better qualified men.

So yeah feminism now is just about complaining and a power grab mainly.

Wibbs

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Men: the real victim.

It’s okay, I feel you. It’s not easy being a cis, whyte, heterosexual male aged 18-49 these days. Not easy at all. Cant even look at, let alone talk to, a woman.

Nope. Unlike what appears to be your first position and the first position of "feminism" I don't frame everything in victimhood. I'm merely pointing to the speciousness of modern "feminist" thought. Nor do I try to foster even more identity politic divisions by endlessly looking for more and more labels to slap on people like "cis" or "whyte" so we can play the oppressor/oppressed narrative to death.

Mister Vain

Modern feminism promotes a cliquey sisterhood mentality that is opposed to criticism. Today’s media feminists are only interested in talking about equality when it’s used to bargain a better deal for themselves. Too much of the debate in mainstream and social media around gender issues is dictated by a strain of feminism that views masculinity as inherently problematic.

Salvation Tambourine

Wibbs wrote: »

It would be if it did.
Put it another way; among average everyday people, which gender is more likely to die younger, be killed at work, be physically assaulted, be homeless, be addicts, be more suicidal and carry that to its unfortunate end, be unemployed, have lower educational outcomes, fewer social and financial resources, be treated less favourably in law, including in the event of divorce? I'll give ye a hint, it's not women. The only metric where women figure higher in the stats is in sexual assault.

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Men: the real victim.
It’s okay, I feel you. It’s not easy being a cis, whyte, heterosexual male aged 18-49 these days. Not easy at all. Cant even look at, let alone talk to, a woman.

If that a response to the above (that was the order of the comments for me) then wow.

Why do you spell the word "Whyte"?

FunLover18

Mister Vain wrote: »

Modern feminism promotes a cliquey sisterhood mentality that is opposed to criticism. Today’s media feminists are only interested in talking about equality when it’s used to bargain a better deal for themselves. Too much of the debate in mainstream and social media around gender issues is dictated by a strain of feminism that views masculinity as inherently problematic.

I think this is a problem with most movements across the political spectrum. There's very little room for nuance or discussion these days, the extemists are used as a weapon to tarnish everyone by association.

Wibbs

Tell me how wrote: »

Don't suppose you have a link for the first bit in bold?

Any part of the modern "feminist" credo will suffice for example.

As for the second bit, if this is the case, and I am not suggesting that it isn't so for any or all of them, there's a lot in there, why do we never see a focus on overcoming these issues on here, raising awareness about them, getting government organisations to act in relation to them, support groups being formed etc. Time and again (and my God has it been time and again on here lately) there are threads lambasting various 'liberal' activist ideals, feminism today being the latest to be targeted.

I hate to break it to you, but I'm far more left of centre than right. Old stylee Liberal. Pick any "liberal" position you like and you'll find me on the side of it in the vast majority of cases. In every referendum save one(the birthright passports) I voted the "correct" way, including the first time I could vote the divorce referendum which didn't pass.

Where I take issue is the growth and digging in of identity politics and US college speak, of oppressed and oppressor and victim narratives, of ever increasing labels driven by market forces and fashion as much as actual politics. Twenty years ago I'd likely have said yep I'd be a feminist, because a) it wasn't nearly so daft or divisive in the mainstream and b) it was a societal Accepted Truth that I just went along with. As time went by and it became more and more ridiculous and whiny and the more I actually looked at the main tenets of that politic the more I smelled what you would smell if you followed a bovine of the male persuasion around a field for long enough.

PS the fact you didn't know or aren't sure about the second part you bolded says much about which squeaky wheel gets the most grease in western societies.

Say what you want about these liberals, feminists included, but one thing they have shown themselves to be capable of doing is activating and advocating and building support and ultimately seeing action being taken, slow and all as it can be. And almost exclusively to be met with derision and insults for doing so, and often to be dismissed with these claims that 'Oh but men have it way worse'. If they do, why not try and do something about it? Is it a fear of appearing on the 'Wokeism of the day thread' Or maybe being accused of being the lowest of the low, 'a Social justice warrior'.

For a start fighting fire with fire, or in feminism's case BS with BS means both parties end up on fire or covered in BS.

And for anyone who comes in with cries of the MSM and how they would react to men trying to help themselves and each other, have a look at how one young female activist is treated, her mural didn't last 24 hours before it had a bucket of paint thrown over it and everyone from high profile media people to the President of the United States had a go at her for trying to raise awareness, and yet, she, and others like her persist and don't stop just because someone tells them they should.

If people aren't happy with how things are, why do some focus their efforts in complaining about other people who are advocating for improvement in one way or another rather than trying to change or help that thing which they feel is not ideal?
Answers on a postcard please.

Feminism is the Accepted Truth in the vast majority of politics, thought and media in the West. Here in Ireland it's a cast iron given. You will not see any men's issue being publicly debated unless it is framed within "feminist" thought and the again the reasons will almost certainly be blamed on the patriarchy. You won't even hear measured critique of "feminism". There are no other voices. In order to be proactive it would butt up against that tide. It's doable, but most people men and women couldn't be arsed and just go along with it, leaving the field open to cranks on twitter.

Wibbs

FunLover18 wrote: »

I think this is a problem with most movements across the political spectrum. There's very little room for nuance or discussion these days, the extemists are used as a weapon to tarnish everyone by association.

I'd agree and go further and say the extreme positions across the spectrum become more and more the mainstream.

Earthhorse

Leg End Reject wrote: »

The last thing I would like to be described as is "masculine", appearance or behaviourwise. :eek:

Very manly of you to admit this.

Sleepy

Wibbs wrote: »

Feminism is the Accepted Truth in the vast majority of politics, thought and media in the West. Here in Ireland it's a cast iron given. You will not see any men's issue being publicly debated unless it is framed within "feminist" thought and the again the reasons will almost certainly be blamed on the patriarchy. You won't even hear measured critique of "feminism". There are no other voices. In order to be proactive it would butt up against that tide. It's doable, but most people men and women couldn't be arsed and just go along with it, leaving the field open to cranks on twitter.

I think the best example of this is Eton College, that bastion of liberal thought who are now so afraid of Feminists that they'll sack a teacher for daring to questioning the religion of the white middle class woman, even when that questioning was done as part of a class focused on debating social issue and where he cited academic research to back up his arguments.

The Feminists of the past won their fight (and that's a great thing!). Their ideological daughters are dangerous idiots and society needs to figure out how to stand up to them.

Mad_maxx

Smee_Again wrote: »

Anything that promotes equality is good for society.

slogans never lie , everyone knows that

Mad_maxx

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Men: the real victim.

It’s okay, I feel you. It’s not easy being a cis, whyte, heterosexual male aged 18-49 these days. Not easy at all. Cant even look at, let alone talk to, a woman.

you spelt the word White incorrectly.

.anon.

ThewhiteJesus wrote: »

Eoghan Mcdermott is a feminist, what does that tell you ?

It tells you nothing, other than the fact that claiming to be a feminist doesn't mean that you aren't a misogynistic arsehole beneath the facade.

Yurt2

When people ask me am I a feminist I reply 'what do you mean when you say feminism?'

Because as one of the 21st century's dominant meta-theories, there is a lot of kooky stuff being bandied about by people proclaiming to be feminists apart from the legal equalities that 99% of men are already on board with.

Feminism is a political movement concerned with power, and it should be viewed and scrutinized as such. There are also a lot of bad actors that take up the flag for the wrong reasons, people seeking to feather their own nests, and those simply using feminism as a convenient cloak to avoid scrutiny and to help themselves to power and unaccountability.

Tombo2001

Wibbs wrote: »

Put it another way; among average everyday people, which gender is more likely to die younger, be killed at work, be physically assaulted, be homeless, be addicts, be more suicidal and carry that to its unfortunate end, be unemployed, have lower educational outcomes, fewer social and financial resources, be treated less favourably in law, including in the event of divorce? I'll give ye a hint, it's not women. The only metric where women figure higher in the stats is in sexual assault.

You are not wrong in any of the above - the only issue I have is that I'm not sure you can blame women for any of this.

Its not the same thing.

If you look at politics for example, we've never had a female president in the US or Taoiseach in Ireland. And while we easily could have today - nonetheless the history of politics is one where the starting point was that women couldnt vote and that politicis was a male only bastion that women had to break into. Women could directly point the finger at men in that case and say - this isnt fair.

In all of the things you've listed out above - if women are better educated than men - can women be blamed for this? We know that men are better networked in the workplace than women (look at company boards for concrete and undeniable evidence of this). As such, there is less pressure on men to be well educated.

Be physically assaulted? Women dont randomly attack men on the street. Men do.

Weaker access to custody? The legal system was largely devised by men, and goes back to a starting point where women were not allowed work when they got married.


The second point is: Instead of giving out about Feminism, why not use it as an inspiration for how you can pursue better rights, better living conditions for men.

That is, if you really care that much about the valid points that you have raised.

TheValeyard

I'm not even sure what could be defined as Feminism anymore as it appears to be a splintered force at war with itself. Only need to look at all at terf stuff, JK Rowling, etc. Even a split between social and individual feminism. It all seems as if there are multiple competing forms of intersectional feminism.

whisky_galore

It's good for manufacturers of blue hair dye and nose rings.

anewme

The majority of women on a day to day basis haven't a clue or interest in first wave, second wave or whatever other label is put on women.

Im sure the majority of men do either.

I dont understand any of this, nor would I waste any time reading up on it.

What I do know though, is, there are these constant threads about women here which usually end with people being demeaned as blue haired lesbians. Case in point, post above. Not to mention the juvenile references to boobs, burming bras etc.

Its pretty clear that these people are threatened by women so try to demean them as a cliched generalised stereotype.

Up until 3rd wave it kinda made sense, although there were some extreme views. 4th wave feminism holds beliefs that 3rd wave would find abhorrent and anti female

.anon.

.anon. wrote: »

It tells you nothing, other than the fact that claiming to be a feminist doesn't mean that you aren't a misogynistic arsehole beneath the facade.

For many, It may be an indicator that you are.

EmmetSpiceland

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Men: the real victim.

It’s okay, I feel you. It’s not easy being a cis, whyte, heterosexual male aged 18-49 these days. Not easy at all.

Hard to know if parody. Well done on not misquoting there though. You may have forgotten your persona.

Silentcorner

It's a movement rooted in dishonesty, this wave that is, whatever wave we are on now!

And it's everywhere today, work, media, education.

It's a movement driven by emotion, not reason.

It's a movement devoid of accountability for the dishonesty.

It's a movement devoid of logical consistency.

It is a simple persons movement really, you don't have to think too hard about it or question it too deeply, just a nice twitter handle and a cheap and easy way to feel good about oneself.

whisky_galore

anewme wrote: »

The majority of women on a day to day basis haven't a clue or interest in first wave, second wave or whatever other label is put on women.

Im sure the majority of men do either.

I dont understand any of this, nor would I waste any time reading up on it.

What I do know though, is, there are these constant threads about women here which usually end with people being demeaned as blue haired lesbians. Case in point, post above. Not to mention the juvenile references to noobs, bras etc.

Its pretty clear that these people are threatened by women so try to demean them as a cliched generalised stereotype.

anewbuzzkill

Rothko

dotsman wrote: »

Feminism isn't about promoting equality. The clue is in the name.

Op, to answer your question - no; modern feminism is a vile, hate-filled, almost religious-like view that causes tremendous harm to men, women and society as a whole.

But you are not allowed to proffer anything against it. Otherwise you are a misogynistic sexist pig.

True

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Men: the real victim.

It’s okay, I feel you. It’s not easy being a cis, whyte, heterosexual male aged 18-49 these days. Not easy at all. Cant even look at, let alone talk to, a woman.

As can be seen by this sarcastic response that isn't based on anything at all in this thread.

Mad_maxx

women in places like Saudi Arabia who take great risk in order to try and achieve even the most basic of equalities , those are feminists who anyone can admire , they are battling real systematic unfairness and battling a genuinely male dominate society , i salute those feminists, if they identify as feminists that is , maybe they just identify as women seeking equality ? , some women who take no crap also dont like the baggage which comes with that label

in the likes of Ireland , feminists are often just careerists in the grievance industry or social media attention seekers who form part of the broader WOKE movement

Wibbs

Tombo2001 wrote: »

You are not wrong in any of the above - the only issue I have is that I'm not sure you can blame women for any of this.

I didn't T. As I said I don't run the victimhood narrative, nor do I run the blame game or point at nebulous oppressors by way of simplistic explanation. I do point at "feminism" though for pushing all of the above and with spurious ballsology to support their politic.

If you look at politics for example, we've never had a female president in the US or Taoiseach in Ireland. And while we easily could have today - nonetheless the history of politics is one where the starting point was that women couldnt vote and that politicis was a male only bastion that women had to break into. Women could directly point the finger at men in that case and say - this isnt fair.

The problem with this regularly trotted out notion is in the half truths of history. In most western democracies the non landowning common man didn't have the vote either. In most democracies(Switzerland being the obvious exception where women didn't get the vote until 71) the average woman got the vote soon after or at the same time the average man did. Indeed women landowners and the wealthy often had the vote before the common man or woman.

The plain fact is this; for most of human history the average man was a bullet and spear stopper expected to fight, work and die for the powerful, the average woman was the babymaker of bullets and spear stoppers expected to fight, work and die for the powerful and a babymaker to more babymakers. Men were the expendable gender, women were the "valuable" gender, so long as they were fertile. Rinse and repeat. The "gender war" was far more a class and power war than a gender one.

It remains somewhat similar today. If you regard modern western feminism it is overwhelmingly concerned with the issues of White, middle class, university educated women. Anything beyond that tends to be tokenism and often dismissed as cultural equivalence. The average self identifying western "feminist" is usually more concerned about things like being "slut shamed" and "more women in STEM!!" than the plight of Brown women living in actual patriarchal societies. The joke is that it's often the case that in quite a few patriarchal societies you find more women in STEM fields and in senior management than in more "feminist" societies. EG there are more senior management women in no gender quotas Russia than there are in gender quotas Sweden or Norway.

In all of the things you've listed out above - if women are better educated than men - can women be blamed for this? We know that men are better networked in the workplace than women (look at company boards for concrete and undeniable evidence of this). As such, there is less pressure on men to be well educated.

The education gap exists long before company boards or employment. More school age boys have lower literacy levels than girls. Ireland is actually good on this score as the gap is narrower than other developed nations. This gap continues into university years. Here's a UK link from the BBC on this. And this gap trend widens in other western nations. The "better networks for men" is a nonsense and isn't in play until you get to boardroom level. This gap is reflected in pay too. Oh yes. Before children come into play Irish women on average earn more than Irish men. The women's council of Ireland had this on their website. Of course as you will see couched as a negative, but they then removed that page entirely. Doesn't fit the narrative. But when I spotted this six years ago on another thread on the matter I copied the text involved.

Me. In 2015. wrote:

The latest figures from the EU Commission show that the Gender Pay Gap in Ireland is 13.9% - in other words women in Ireland are paid almost 14% less than men. The Gender Pay Gap exists even though women do better at school and university than men. In the Irish context, what is perhaps most disturbing is the high cost of motherhood. Figures from the OECD show that in Ireland the Gender Pay Gap for women with no children is -17% but this increases significantly to 14% for women with at least one child – a jump of 31 percentage points. The gender pay gap exists across the sectors.
For the bottom 10% of earners, the Gender Pay Gap in Ireland is 4% but this rises to 24.6% for the top 10% of income earners, suggesting the continued presence of a glass ceiling and indirect discrimination.

Emphasis mine. Note how they don't come out straight and say that childless women earn 17% more on average. Blink and you'd miss it kinda thing. You'll also note that they mention women do better in education than men, yet little focus is given by society to why men are failing in that area.

Be physically assaulted? Women dont randomly attack men on the street. Men do.

I agree on that score. In cases of domestic abuse international studies show that in non reciprocal violence women are slightly more likely to be the aggressor. The couples with the highest risk of partner abuse? Lesbian couples. Must be all the "toxic masculinity" flying around. Where are the shelters for male victims of domestic abuse? In the UK, US and Australia there are more shelters for the pets of female victims of domestic abuse than there are male shelters. When the first shelters were set up in the UK in the late 60's they took in both women and men as the founder and her associates noted that men needed this service too. Didn't last long when the 70's "feminists" got going. To the degree that the woman who founded the shelters across the UK was subsequently barred from entering them for questioning the equal rights "feminist" credo.

Weaker access to custody? The legal system was largely devised by men, and goes back to a starting point where women were not allowed work when they got married.

Women work now and I don't hear a peep outa the we're all for equality "feminists" on the matter. I thought this "feminism" was for equal rights gender notwithstanding? It's not. As was noted earlier the clue is in the name.

The second point is: Instead of giving out about Feminism, why not use it as an inspiration for how you can pursue better rights, better living conditions for men.

That is, if you really care that much about the valid points that you have raised.

Because "feminism" is the antagonist for much of this and as I said it and so many other political credos these days use the same tactics and I wouldn't be up for fighting fire with fire. Sadly much of western society and debate is too used to these divisive tactics and expects them. Measured debate that might actually make a difference, or screeching about rights without responsibilities, oppressors and the oppressed and never being satisfied with the results for your particular group? Well the latter tends to win.

Tombo2001

Wibbs wrote: »

It remains somewhat similar today. If you regard modern western feminism it is overwhelmingly concerned with the issues of White, middle class, university educated women.

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All very good points, and I would agree with a lot of it, disagree with some of it - particularly the networking piece, its strongly male oriented. As an example, corporate entertainment - heavily focussed on sports that are principally followed be men. Where do large banks or legal firms have corporate boxes? In Croke Park. The Aviva. Who does that suit better? Men or women? Men, clearly.

On the above, I read the Reni Eddo Lodge book and she made that point strongly, that the feminism agenda didnt encompass the black female experience.

What it boils down to though - and noone should be particularly shocked by this - people care first and foremost about their own rights. Thats what they agitate for.

I dont see the people who marched for gay marriage also supporting better living conditions for travellers. Or the 'Repeal the 8th' activists campaigning about direct provision. (By and large, I'm sure some do).

Why would it surprise you that white middle class women are principally concerned with the welfare of white middle class women. Why would you blame them for that.

You have to fight your own battles.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Leg End Reject wrote: »

I'd agree with Wibbs. There was a time when feminism was relevant, but it's jumped the shark now.

I'm all for gender equality, but it should come from the honest starting point of acknowledging that there are differences between the 2 genders, and those differences influence behaviours, outlook and social interactions.

The last thing I would like to be described as is "masculine", appearance or behaviourwise. :eek:

Liberal feminism, yes. I find so much of that ridiculous. It leans into victimhood far too much.

Old school feminism, however, has seen a resurgence because the rights that that wave fought for are now under threat due to the erosion of spaces women carved out in society to protect themselves from the small number of men who will harm them.* I had thought feminism was beginning to seem a bit outdated. That would have been my view a few years ago. But not now. In a country where in the last year, public health literature did not feature the word ‘woman’ once in relation to a female-specific condition (corresponding literature was peppered with the word ‘men’) and violent male-bodied inmates are being incarcerated in a women’s prison, feminism is still sorely needed. Self-ID was legal three years before abortion was.

*the kind of spaces I am talking about are those which were created to protect women, rather than say something like a men-only golf club being questioned. Now I actually don’t object to men-only clubs personally. I just want to make that distinction as I’ve seen this false equivalency posited a few times. The debate about whether men-only and women-only establishments should exist is a valid one. But I’m just talking about privacy and safety related places here.