Modern Feminism-Good for Society?

alexv

https://www.thelocal.ch/20200115/switzerland-ranked-best/
"Switzerland has again topped the global ‘best country’ rankings, sitting atop the list for the fourth year in a row."

alexv

Here's an interesting Camille Paglia quote about feminist misandry (it probably applied to all "waves"): "Men have sacrificed and crippled themselves physically and emotionally to feed, house, and protect women and children. None of their pain or achievement is registered in feminist rhetoric, which portrays men as oppressive and callous exploiters."

Tell me how

Eric Cartman wrote: »

it was a protest that was denied a permit because it violates covid lockdown rules, pretending that the police were present or using force for any other reason than this is arguing in bad faith. they arrested a covid restrictions violator who kicked off at them , gender and the topic of the protest are immaterial.

Hence the image in my tweet showing the disparity in how police reacted to rangers supporters celebrating the title.

Hence your arguing in bad faith position is incorrect.

Eric Cartman

Tell me how wrote: »

Hence the image in my tweet showing the disparity in how police reacted to rangers supporters celebrating the title.

Hence your arguing in bad faith position is incorrect.

but theres no evidence (to my knowledge, open to correction) that rangers supporters kicked off at police to warrant arrests. There is evidence of that woman kicking off at the vigil, so she was arrested.

Id respect if you argued that the police should have been more heavy handed with the rangers fans, but no, your argument is 'they unfairly targeted women because they were women' which is where bad faith enters into this.

Tell me how

alexv wrote: »

Here's an interesting Camille Paglia quote about feminist misandry (it probably applied to all "waves"): "Men have sacrificed and crippled themselves physically and emotionally to feed, house, and protect women and children. None of their pain or achievement is registered in feminist rhetoric, which portrays men as oppressive and callous exploiters."

Are you suggesting that because some women have had the benefit of men in their lives, no woman must highlight further room for improvement without first acknowledging this?

Camille in many ways seems to be focused on the most extreme definition of what a feminist is, a definition which is also viewed as being typical by many on here who argue that it is indicative of any advocate of female issues.

There are extremes, but they are being hijacked by those opposed to any situation where women might argue on a collective issue.

We saw it during the week with the Daily Mail headlining the phrase from a member of the house of lords about imposing a curfew on men, something, which having watched the video, was clearly said in hyperbole but it was taken up on here and on other threads to imply it was the desired position of all in favour of womens right to adovcate.

Eric Cartman

Tell me how wrote: »

Are you suggesting that because some women have had the benefit of men in their lives, no woman must highlight further room for improvement without first acknowledging this?

Camille in many ways seems to be focused on the most extreme definition of what a feminist is, a definition which is also viewed as being typical by many on here who argue that it is indicative of any advocate of female issues.

There are extremes, but they are being hijacked by those opposed to any situation where women might argue on a collective issue.

We saw it during the week with the Daily Mail headlining the phrase from a member of the house of lords about imposing a curfew on men, something, which having watched the video, was clearly said in hyperbole but it was taken up on here and on other threads to imply it was the desired position of all in favour of womens right to adovcate.

Every woman has benefited from what men have collectively done for the world just as every man has collectively benefited for what women have done for the world. Theres no 'some' about it.

the curfew on men may have been hyperbole but giving politicians the benefit of doubt in that regard is never issued to men or conservative politicians making similar remarks so I can see why that side of the aisle would hold the left to their own standards and be outraged by such.

Tell me how

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Every woman has benefited from what men have collectively done for the world just as every man has collectively benefited for what women have done for the world. Theres no 'some' about it.

the curfew on men may have been hyperbole but giving politicians the benefit of doubt in that regard is never issued to men or conservative politicians making similar remarks so I can see why that side of the aisle would hold the left to their own standards and be outraged by such.

We've just watched 4 years of conservative media going out of their way to say that Trumps words were not to be taken literally.
In the UK, again, a largely conservative media has given Boris Johnson and others in his party a pass on several cases of such hyperbole. Johnson is largely portrayed as a bit goofy and eccentric rather than being objectively analysed.

alexv

Tell me how wrote: »

Are you suggesting that because some women have had the benefit of men in their lives, no woman must highlight further room for improvement without first acknowledging this?

Camille in many ways seems to be focused on the most extreme definition of what a feminist is, a definition which is also viewed as being typical by many on here who argue that it is indicative of any advocate of female issues.

There are extremes, but they are being hijacked by those opposed to any situation where women might argue on a collective issue.

We saw it during the week with the Daily Mail headlining the phrase from a member of the house of lords about imposing a curfew on men, something, which having watched the video, was clearly said in hyperbole but it was taken up on here and on other threads to imply it was the desired position of all in favour of womens right to adovcate.

I'm not suggesting anything. Her quote is fairly self-explanatory and does not require much elaboration. Whether or not it applies to one's personal experience is obviously up to the individual to contemplate.

She does have some insightful quotes though, in relation to many subjects. Another of hers:

"If civilization had been left in female hands we would still be living in grass huts."

Tell me how

alexv wrote: »

I'm not suggesting anything. Her quote is fairly self-explanatory and does not require much elaboration. Whether or not it applies to one's personal experience is obviously up to the individual to contemplate.

She does have some insightful quotes though, in relation to many subjects. Another of hers:

"If civilization had been left in female hands we would still be living in grass huts."

I don't find that insightful, I believe it to be entirely baseless, untrue and an insult to women worldwide and the memories of those already dead.

I would be ashamed to suggest there is any truth in it to the women in my life.

What do you think of it?

P.S. No quote that doesn't provide the context in which it is made is self-explanatory.

MadameHussein

alexv wrote: »

I'm not suggesting anything. Her quote is fairly self-explanatory and does not require much elaboration. Whether or not it applies to one's personal experience is obviously up to the individual to contemplate.

She does have some insightful quotes though, in relation to many subjects. Another of hers:

"If civilization had been left in female hands we would still be living in grass huts."

Paglia is also an advocate of paedophilia. In the October 1991 issue of Esquire magazine, Paglia stated that she sees pedophilia to be "perfectly natural": "Worldwide, in Greece and Rome as in the Near East, China, and Japan, pretty boys have usually been considered by men to be as sexually desirable as women. This seems to me perfectly natural."

In a 1992 interview with Time magazine, Paglia listed her support for both child pornography and snuff films: "I am proabortion, pro the legal use of drugs, propornography, child pornography, snuff films."

These are actually just two quotes of many she's made in relation to her support for "boy love". She may have made some insightful comments but she is hardly a beacon of reason and logic. For the record, I think men and women can both be credited with the the development of civilisation and without one or other, both would have suffered.

alexv

Tell me how wrote: »

What do you think of it?

I think it's a provocative thing to say or write. I think that if a successful man said or wrote the same, that he would be promptly "cancelled", and if he held a prominent role in politics, business or academia, he would be unceremoniously fired.

Paglia, as a lesbian and self-proclaimed feminist, is more free to speak her mind, as would be someone like Christina Hoff Sommers.

Tell me how

alexv wrote: »

I think it's a provocative thing to say or write. I think that if a successful man said or wrote the same, that he would be promptly "cancelled", and if he held a prominent role in politics, business or academia, he would be unceremoniously fired.

Paglia, as a lesbian and self-proclaimed feminist, is more free to speak her mind, as would be someone like Christina Hoff Sommers.

Do you believe it to be true, or false?

Dyr

Did any one come up with a list what modern feminism in Ireland want?

Lost track a bit.

Eric Cartman

Bambi wrote: »

Did any one come up with a list what modern feminism in Ireland want?

Lost track a bit.

im not sure of the specifics but its mostly free stuff from the government and to be railroaded into high paying jobs.

Tell me how

Bambi wrote: »

Did any one come up with a list what modern feminism in Ireland want?

Lost track a bit.

They want you to stop asking that ridiculous question.

the_pen_turner

Bambi wrote: »

Did any one come up with a list what modern feminism in Ireland want?

Lost track a bit.

hard to acuratly say when they wont tell you

Tell me how

the_pen_turner wrote: »

hard to acuratly say when they wont tell you

Is it hard to imagine that there isn't a singular list?

It's only people apparently against womens right to advocate who believe that there is a credo that they have all signed up to. Maybe one of those people can provide a link and you can then argue the merits. Although, it'll probably be something from the Daily Mail or New York post which will then have to be pointed out as being BS.

alexv

I think the premise of the idea is wrong. Civilization was not left "in male hands", as she suggests. Both men and women worked together to allow civilization to develop, from top to bottom. The vast majority of women and men found themselves struggling to support the hierarchical pyramid from below, a very small minority of men and women ruled, or directed the masses, from above. The move from grasshuts to skyscrapers, and the society which underpins such development can be ascribed to neither men nor women as a group.

Tell me how

alexv wrote: »

I think the premise of the idea is wrong. Civilization was not left "in male hands", as she suggests. Both men and women worked together to allow civilization to develop, from top to bottom. The vast majority of women and men found themselves struggling to support the hierarchical pyramid from below, a very small minority of men and women ruled, or directed the masses, from above. The move from grasshuts to skyscrapers, and the society which underpins such development can be ascribed to neither men nor women as a group.

Leaving aside some of the other views reportedly held by Camille suggested above, you, as I do, believe she was incorrect in this quote and I also believe that her view expressed in the first quote you introduced was simplistic in both the idea that feminists inherently fail to acknowledge what men have done for them and also that it ignores the sacrifice or suffering women throughout the centuries have endured on behalf of men.

Dyr

the_pen_turner wrote: »

hard to acuratly say when they wont tell you

Very telling too.

the_pen_turner

[QUOTE=Bambi;116581661
it shouldnt be that hard of a question to answer if you beleive the narative that media and similar push.

im soley looking for equality and i cna list a few womens issues so i dont see why the femanist side cant

the_pen_turner

Tell me how wrote: »

Is it hard to imagine that there isn't a singular list?

It's only people apparently against womens right to advocate who believe that there is a credo that they have all signed up to. Maybe one of those people can provide a link and you can then argue the merits. Although, it'll probably be something from the Daily Mail or New York post which will then have to be pointed out as being BS.

its not a list at all. its silence. even one example would be an improvement. we can work on what list to put it on once we have some suggestions

alexv

Tell me how wrote: »

I also believe that her view expressed in the first quote you introduced was simplistic in...the idea that feminists inherently fail to acknowledge what men have done for them

Maybe you're right. I do believe that a more constructive dialogue might become possible if leading feminists and profeminists were more outspoken in their acknowledgement of men's positive contributions to society, and in their support for men and boys generally. I think it would greatly help
with feminism's reputation as being a largely misandrist movement.

Eric Cartman

the_pen_turner wrote: »

its not a list at all. its silence. even one example would be an improvement. we can work on what list to put it on once we have some suggestions

any minute now you'll get a post that reels off the manifesto of all the peripheral causes and the demands for them in a macro sense (Irish feminists want equality for all LGBTQ+ people, an end to the housing crisis and a socialist Irish republic)

or if you're really lucky you'll get a post that actually manages to stay on topic of womens rights, but still remain really light on detail and most of it will be in the macro sense , with a few key micro issues e.g. (Irish feminists want equality for all women in Ireland(macro) and an end to period poverty (micro) with no drill down at all on the macro side, if you question it, they'll give you explicit detail on the micro issue which they can easily quantify, side stepping your real question.

and if you're super super lucky you'll get a straight appeal to emotion e.g. (Irish feminists are sick of being raped / the partriarchy / being murdered) , this one will also come with no real explanation and any followup questions will either be responded to one of three ways
1) saying you don't know women / you've clearly never been with a woman
2) saying that they won't be responding to you any more / have to go do something else
3) post something really reactionary like 'you think its ok to rape/murder women'

you'll never get a straight detailed answer with any real solutions to the macro elements. Its all buzz words and sentences that feel good but the solutions are too complex or expensive to realistically have.

Tell me how

alexv wrote: »

Maybe you're right. I do believe that a more constructive dialogue might become possible if leading feminists and profeminists were more outspoken in their acknowledgement of men's positive contributions to society, and in their support for men and boys generally. I think it would greatly help
with feminism's reputation as being a largely misandrist movement.

I think requiring this demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding as to the experience of many women at that moment when they find themselves having to advocate for their gender.

It's akin that if someone was being bullied or treated unreasonably by a colleague at work and eventually got HR to step in and mediate and HR said ok, the first think we need to do is to have the person who raised the complaint thank the other person for everything they have done for them.

While some people still either willfully or incidentally cannot grasp that women might want certain things to improve for their gender for any matter in the 21st century in western society, they seem to have no problem seeing a supposed big problem of feminism being imposed on society, hence this thread being started.

the_pen_turner

Tell me how wrote: »

I think requiring this demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding as to the experience of many women at that moment when they find themselves having to advocate for their gender.

It's akin that if someone was being bullied or treated unreasonably by a colleague at work and eventually got HR to step in and mediate and HR said ok, the first think we need to do is to have the person who raised the complaint thank the other person for everything they have done for them.

While some people still either willfully or incidentally cannot grasp that women might want certain things to improve for their gender for any matter in the 21st century in western society, they seem to have no problem seeing a supposed big problem of feminism being imposed on society, hence this thread being started.

maybe we would if they told us what they want

Tell me how

Eric Cartman wrote: »

any minute now you'll get a post that reels off the manifesto of all the peripheral causes and the demands for them in a macro sense (Irish feminists want equality for all LGBTQ+ people, an end to the housing crisis and a socialist Irish republic)

or if you're really lucky you'll get a post that actually manages to stay on topic of womens rights, but still remain really light on detail and most of it will be in the macro sense , with a few key micro issues e.g. (Irish feminists want equality for all women in Ireland(macro) and an end to period poverty (micro) with no drill down at all on the macro side, if you question it, they'll give you explicit detail on the micro issue which they can easily quantify, side stepping your real question.

and if you're super super lucky you'll get a straight appeal to emotion e.g. (Irish feminists are sick of being raped / the partriarchy / being murdered) , this one will also come with no real explanation and any followup questions will either be responded to one of three ways
1) saying you don't know women / you've clearly never been with a woman
2) saying that they won't be responding to you any more / have to go do something else
3) post something really reactionary like 'you think its ok to rape/murder women'

you'll never get a straight detailed answer with any real solutions to the macro elements. Its all buzz words and sentences that feel good but the solutions are too complex or expensive to realistically have.

How lucky would we have to be for you or the_pen_turner to comprehend some of the topics which have already been discussed on this thread and how women feel about them?

And like with other complex topics, you expect those with issues to provide both a clear unambiguous identification of the issue and solutions which are not only workable to them, but will be acceptable to the people who don't see an issue in the first place.

It's like Climate threads or BLM threads once again. No one can suggest they want things to be better unless they have worked out exactly how to fix it in a way which is acceptable to those who are vehemently against this person having a voice.

It's shouting people down rather than accepting there are issues to be considered.

Tell me how

the_pen_turner wrote: »

maybe we would if they told us what they want

Maybe take some time and read the thread, or talk to women in the real world, or, more importantly, listen to women. In fact, definitely, less talking, more listening is the way to go I reckon.

Tell me how

Sven808080 wrote: »

I didn't realise women have a hive mind.

And yet you probably think they have a feminist credo and all subscribe to the same list of issues which they feel needs attention.

the_pen_turner

Tell me how wrote: »

Maybe take some time and read the thread, or talk to women in the real world, or, more importantly, listen to women. In fact, definitely, less talking, more listening is the way to go I reckon.

firstly i have read all of this thread and the other one as they developed.
i have talked to women in the real world and hope to continue doing so.
have you ever actually listened to a woman tlking about this subject.
i have asked several women this very question in real life and still dont have anything to add to the list. all you hear is the usual crap like the pay gap and glass ceiling
its very hard to listen to someone who wont answer your question.

a bit like yourself. why dont you give an example