Modern Feminism-Good for Society?

anewme

Tell me how wrote: »

And yet you probably think they have a feminist credo and all subscribe to the same list of issues which they feel needs attention.

I wouldn't answer the one post wonders. The get get swatted away fairly rapid.

Eric Cartman

Tell me how wrote: »

How lucky would we have to be for you or the_pen_turner to comprehend some of the topics which have already been discussed on this thread and how women feel about them?

And like with other complex topics, you expect those with issues to provide both a clear unambiguous identification of the issue and solutions which are not only workable to them, but will be acceptable to the people who don't see an issue in the first place.

It's like Climate threads or BLM threads once again. No one can suggest they want things to be better unless they have worked out exactly how to fix it in a way which is acceptable to those who are vehemently against this person having a voice.

It's shouting people down rather than accepting there are issues to be considered.

Im not trying to take away anyones voice, I'm an advocate of free speech. But you can't just live in a world where you identify a problem, blame it all on white men and give no actual solutions that aren't just 'take away their rights / hurt them in the wallet.

Western world feminism
climate change
BLM
trans rights
immigration

etc..
for every ill in the world its the same cohort of people on this forum every time 'grr its the white man and all white men are responsible for this oppression, you must give up freedoms / board seats / tax money to rid the world of it'

its the same nauseating solution for any given problem. Whenever I ask for an alternative solution that maybe isn't a kick in the balls for people like me , I get told that I'm 'silencing people' or 'not listening' the problem is I have listened, to the same guff for 20+ different issues, the same useless solution and the same target of who's to blame. Name me one major world issue that we can solve right now that the leading solution being championed by the loudest voices on the cause doesn't sound like something out of Karl Marx's drunken scrawls.

Tell me how

the_pen_turner wrote: »

firstly i have read all of this thread and the other one as they developed.
i have talked to women in the real world and hope to continue doing so.
have you ever actually listened to a woman tlking about this subject.
i have asked several women this very question in real life and still dont have anything to add to the list. all you hear is the usual crap like the pay gap and glass ceiling
its very hard to listen to someone who wont answer your question.

a bit like yourself. why dont you give an example

You've spoken to women, they've told you of issues and you feel they are the usual crap? You're coming across exactly as I picture you to be. Sounds like you discount everything that doesn't agree with your preconceived ideas.
But at least you're acknowledging there is a list now.

I gave examples of how two of my highly qualified sisters were treated in a disparaging manner directly related to their gender. Is hoping that they lived and worked in a world where that did not happen enough to make it on your list, or is that the usual crap as well?

Is women wishing that they didn't expect to be harassed, and insulted as a pretty frequent occurrence when going about their every day lives good enough to make it on your list?

All these issues have been discussed on this thread, but here you are feigning ignorance of their existence.

Tell me how

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Im not trying to take away anyones voice, I'm an advocate of free speech. But you can't just live in a world where you identify a problem, blame it all on white men and give no actual solutions that aren't just 'take away their rights / hurt them in the wallet.

Western world feminism
climate change
BLM
trans rights
immigration

etc..
for every ill in the world its the same cohort of people on this forum every time 'grr its the white man and all white men are responsible for this oppression, you must give up freedoms / board seats / tax money to rid the world of it'

its the same nauseating solution for any given problem. Whenever I ask for an alternative solution that maybe isn't a kick in the balls for people like me , I get told that I'm 'silencing people' or 'not listening' the problem is I have listened, to the same guff for 20+ different issues, the same useless solution and the same target of who's to blame. Name me one major world issue that we can solve right now that the leading solution being championed by the loudest voices on the cause doesn't sound like something out of Karl Marx's drunken scrawls.

Lets be clear, that first bit in bold, 99% of the time we hear that on here it comes from people saying that others are saying it rather than someone saying it first hand.

Second bit in bold. Again you are asking for something 'that we can solve right now' You want both the solution and the acceptable problem definition in the same statement. Let's go with Climate action. Leading advocate, the IPCC.

Tell me how

anewme wrote: »

I wouldn't answer the one post wonders. The get get swatted away fairly rapid.

I'm allowing for the fact that they've probably posted several times across different accounts.

cee_jay

the_pen_turner wrote: »

firstly i have read all of this thread and the other one as they developed.
i have talked to women in the real world and hope to continue doing so.
have you ever actually listened to a woman tlking about this subject.
i have asked several women this very question in real life and still dont have anything to add to the list. all you hear is the usual crap like the pay gap and glass ceiling
its very hard to listen to someone who wont answer your question.

a bit like yourself. why dont you give an example

If you go into the discussion with the POV the issue is "the usual crap", then I don't see why anyone would try engage in the conversation with you.

the_pen_turner

Tell me how wrote: »

You've spoken to women, they've told you of issues and you feel they are the usual crap? You're coming across exactly as I picture you to be. Sounds like you discount everything that doesn't agree with your preconceived ideas.when you give someone an outlet to discuss their issues and they come out with complete lies and made up hysteria i think its alright to call that crap
But at least you're acknowledging there is a list now. still no list

I gave examples of how two of my highly qualified sisters were treated in a disparaging manner directly related to their gender.that was something terrible that happened to those indeviduals not in equality or discriminatio of women. funny that you left out your other exaamply that was proved to be wrong Is hoping that they lived and worked in a world where that did not happen enough to make it on your list, or is that the usual crap as well?

Is women wishing that they didn't expect to be harassed, and insulted as a pretty frequent occurrence when going about their every day lives good enough to make it on your list? this is the first this is being mentioned hear in realation to this question. and i agree its a huge issue. its something i can add to the list but no one wants to add it

All these issues have been discussed on this thread, but here you are feigning ignorance of their existencenot this thread.

.

Tell me how

^^ Can you post like the rest of us so we can quote posts without having to tidy up your work.

Now you are referencing an example which I gave that was proven to be wrong? What was it and in what way was it proven wrong?

How had you forgotten all these points earlier when claiming no one would say what issues women could feel action is needed on?

the_pen_turner

cee_jay wrote: »

If you go into the discussion with the POV the issue is "the usual crap", then I don't see why anyone would try engage in the conversation with you.

ruling out stuff like that based on whether its factual or not does not mean im wrong.
im sure there are loads of genuine issues out there in this country but its like pulling teeth to find them

alexv

Tell me how wrote: »

I think requiring this demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding as to the experience of many women at that moment when they find themselves having to advocate for their gender.

It's akin that if someone was being bullied or treated unreasonably by a colleague at work and eventually got HR to step in and mediate and HR said ok, the first think we need to do is to have the person who raised the complaint thank the other person for everything they have done for them.

I think your analogy is a bit weak. To thank the person they are bringing their HR complaint against (in your example) is not analogous with acknowledging the positive contributions of men, and supporting men and boys in general (in my original suggestion, not requirement).

If a movement seeks to effect change universally, it must surely engage with all of society in a positive way and not divisively promote a view which essentially says: this half of the population are victims of that half of the population. It seems a rather childish and alienating strategy, and one doomed to ultimate failure.

Even many male feminists would be inclined to reject it, as they cannot fail to recognize their presence in the accused group: MEN

Tell me how

alexv wrote: »

I think your analogy is a bit weak. To thank the person they are bringing their HR complaint against (in your example) is not analogous with acknowledging the positive contributions of men, and supporting men and boys in general (in my original suggestion, not requirement).

If a movement seeks to effect change universally, it must surely engage with all of society in a positive way and not divisively promote a view which essentially says: this half of the population are victims of that half of the population. It seems a rather childish and alienating strategy, and one doomed to ultimate failure.

Even many male feminists would be inclined to reject it, as they cannot fail to recognize their presence in the accused group: MEN

Most males who support women advocating for things which affect them do not need their ego massaged in order to recognize their right to do so.

Engaging with all elements of society and pandering to them are two very different things. Your suggestion is more akin to the latter than the former.

the_pen_turner

Tell me how wrote: »

^^ Can you post like the rest of us so we can quote posts without having to tidy up your work.

Now you are referencing an example which I gave that was proven to be wrong? What was it and in what way was it proven wrong?

How had you forgotten all these points earlier when claiming no one would say what issues women could feel action is needed on?

you claimed that moving some match was based on discrimination but it was later shown that the pitch was only given based on conditions and if the team lost . i think it was limerick

Eric Cartman

Tell me how wrote: »

Lets be clear, that first bit in bold, 99% of the time we hear that on here it comes from people saying that others are saying it rather than someone saying it first hand.

Second bit in bold. Again you are asking for something 'that we can solve right now' You want both the solution and the acceptable problem definition in the same statement. Let's go with Climate action. Leading advocate, the IPCC.

I said the loudest voices, not the foremost. the IPCC does a fantastic job at gathering data and releasing reports, but its the people who translate what the reports say into rhetoric and supply the packaged solution as above are who I'm talking about. Im even going to leave out greta Thunberg completely , but look at the proliferation of people abusing IPCC data for their agenda

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/24/is-socialism-the-answer-to-the-climate-catastrophe
https://inthesetimes.com/article/socialism-anti-capitalism-economic-reform
https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.18772/22018020541.7?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents
https://www.socialist.net/ipcc-report-revolutionary-change-needed-to-avert-disaster.htm
https://dbknews.com/2018/10/31/climate-change-ipcc-communism-environment/
https://www.globalpolicyjournal.com/blog/19/11/2018/interview-climate-change-product-how-capitalism-values-nature

I can do the same thing for any issue, womens rights included. Im a solutions focussed person and Id just like the problem identified , a solution that isn't the magic marx bullet worked upon and the problem solved.

Tell me how

the_pen_turner wrote: »

you claimed that moving some match was based on discrimination but it was later shown that the pitch was only given based on conditions and if the team lost . i think it was limerick

FFS, that is still an issue that if a senior All Ireland final pitch is only offered subject to a mens team not advancing.

There's no denying that mens GAA is faster, harder, stronger, etc, etc, etc. But are the participants in the women's game not entitled that at least pitches will be available to them without such conditions attached?

Tell me how

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I said the loudest voices, not the foremost. the IPCC does a fantastic job at gathering data and releasing reports, but its the people who translate what the reports say into rhetoric and supply the packaged solution as above are who I'm talking about. Im even going to leave out greta Thunberg completely , but look at the proliferation of people abusing IPCC data for their agenda

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/24/is-socialism-the-answer-to-the-climate-catastrophe
https://inthesetimes.com/article/socialism-anti-capitalism-economic-reform
https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.18772/22018020541.7?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents
https://www.socialist.net/ipcc-report-revolutionary-change-needed-to-avert-disaster.htm
https://dbknews.com/2018/10/31/climate-change-ipcc-communism-environment/
https://www.globalpolicyjournal.com/blog/19/11/2018/interview-climate-change-product-how-capitalism-values-nature

I can do the same thing for any issue, womens rights included. Im a solutions focussed person and Id just like the problem identified , a solution that isn't the magic marx bullet worked upon and the problem solved.

And do you think there aren't reams of examples of conservative voices not seeking to undermine the science in the same way? The most recent President of the United States and his cohort tried to muddy the water on climate action and again on Covid by forwarding the views of 'alternative facts' for their chosen scientific voices.

This is an opinion, but I have yet to see you post a positive solution to one of the active current affairs topics you mentioned. Obviously I don't see or remember all your posts but none are coming to mind. Can you link to a solution you posted on this thread on how help overcome an issue which women are experiencing?

the_pen_turner

Tell me how wrote: »

FFS, that is still an issue that if a senior All Ireland final pitch is only offered subject to a mens team not advancing.

There's no denying that mens GAA is faster, harder, stronger, etc, etc, etc. But are the participants in the women's game not entitled that at least pitches will be available to them without such conditions attached?

if i remember correctly i think they wanted their game moved there rather than where ever it should have been and asked for it.
would you rather the team booking there said no when they might be using that day or said ok have the upgrade if we are not using it.


i agree there are ots of issues in sport. like the aformentioned jerseys and changing rooms etc. disgracefull carry on

Eric Cartman

Tell me how wrote: »

And do you think there aren't reams of examples of conservative voices not seeking to undermine the science in the same way? The most recent President of the United States and his cohort tried to muddy the water on climate action and again on Covid by forwarding the views of 'alternative facts' for their chosen scientific voices.

This is an opinion, but I have yet to see you post a positive solution to one of the active current affairs topics you mentioned. Obviously I don't see or remember all your posts but none are coming to mind. Can you link to a solution you posted on this thread on how help overcome an issue which women are experiencing?

the last two pages various posters have asked for the problem to be identified, presumably so we can all discuss solutions. I haven't a fiddlers what Irish feminists want so I can't chance a solution.

99nsr125

Tell me how wrote: »

Hence the image in my tweet showing the disparity in how police reacted to rangers supporters celebrating the title.

Hence your arguing in bad faith position is incorrect.

Oh my god

You're delusional and have completely discredited yourself and every and any point you have ever made

Tell me how

Eric Cartman wrote: »

the last two pages various posters have asked for the problem to be identified, presumably so we can all discuss solutions. I haven't a fiddlers what Irish feminists want so I can't chance a solution.

No responsibility on being a solutions man when you fail to see any issue.

Here's one so for you, is feminism in Ireland a problem for society? If so, what solutions do you propose.

alexv

Tell me how wrote: »

Engaging with all elements of society and pandering to them are two very different things. Your suggestion is more akin to the latter than the former.

Pandering? So, a feminist (male or female) must never outspokenly acknowledge the positive contributions of one half of the population, lest they be accused of pandering to men?
Seems like a very insecure mindset for any individual or movement demanding change.

Eric Cartman

Tell me how wrote: »

No responsibility on being a solutions man when you fail to see any issue.

Here's one so for you, is feminism in Ireland a problem for society? If so, what solutions do you propose.

the way its currently being bolted and bundled with other issues, yes it is. The solution for feminists in Ireland is to throw off the socialist connotations , throw out the angry man hating fringes and NGO's , form a self funded advocacy group that forms a working group to explicitly identify issues women in Ireland face today with an evidence base for such, and then propose their own solutions and solicit feedback from the wider public to come to a mutually beneficial solution to those issues.

Tell me how

alexv wrote: »

Pandering? So, a feminist (male or female) must never ouspokenly acknowledge the positive contributions of one half of the population, lest they be accused of pandering to men?
Seems like a very insecure mindset for any individual or movement demanding change.

I would say the insecurity is demanding positive recognition before acknowledging that they have a right to be upset about something.

Tell me how

Eric Cartman wrote: »

the way its currently being bolted and bundled with other issues, yes it is. The solution for feminists in Ireland is to throw off the socialist connotations , throw out the angry man hating fringes and NGO's , form a self funded advocacy group that forms a working group to explicitly identify issues women in Ireland face today with an evidence base for such, and then propose their own solutions and solicit feedback from the wider public to come to a mutually beneficial solution to those issues.

Link to the bit in bold please.

What do you mean by socialist connotations?
Can you give examples of the NGO's which you feel are problematic in this space?
Link also of the angry man hating fringes please.

alexv

Tell me how wrote: »

I think requiring this demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding as to the experience of many women at that moment when they find themselves having to advocate for their gender.

It's akin that if someone was being bullied or treated unreasonably by a colleague at work and eventually got HR to step in and mediate and HR said ok, the first think we need to do is to have the person who raised the complaint thank the other person for everything they have done for them.

While some people still either willfully or incidentally cannot grasp that women might want certain things to improve for their gender for any matter in the 21st century in western society, they seem to have no problem seeing a supposed big problem of feminism being imposed on society, hence this thread being started.

I would say the insecurity is demanding positive recognition before acknowledging that they have a right to be upset about something.

Suggesting that a more positive dialogue might be possible if leading feminists were to outspokenly acknowledge men's positive contributions to society (especially when so many self-proclaimed feminists have been so damning of men generally) is not requiring or demanding anything. Don't twist my words.

Demanding things more often than not leads to negative responses or simply being ignored.

Dyr

Eric Cartman wrote: »

the last two pages various posters have asked for the problem to be identified, presumably so we can all discuss solutions. I haven't a fiddlers what Irish feminists want so I can't chance a solution.

We've established that access to GAA pitches is on the list anyway.

Leg End Reject

Bambi wrote: »

We've established that access to GAA pitches is on the list anyway.

Tell me how

alexv wrote: »

Suggesting that a more positive dialogue might be possible if leading feminists were to outspokenly acknowledge men's positive contributions to society (especially when so many self-proclaimed feminists have been so damning of men generally) is not requiring or demanding anything. Don't twist my words.

Demanding things more often than not leads to negative responses or simply being ignored.

Linky link please.

Tell me how

Bambi wrote: »

We've established that access to GAA pitches is on the list anyway.

Behind equitable treatment in the workplace and an entitlement to not expect to be harassed of course, but yes, treated with comparable dignity as to how their male counterparts should be desirable and accessible for women. Why shouldn't it?

Still, some progress today. You guys now acknowledge there are at least some items about which women are entitled to see some progress in how they experience them and Eric has clarified that he is a man of solutions. Strange to think you know someone for so long and yet don't know that about them. Looking forward to seeing the solutions he is going to come up with in future.

Dyr

Tell me how wrote: »

Behind equitable treatment in the workplace and an entitlement to not expect to be harassed of course.

Thankfully already in place, you should look up the laws on equality and harrasment in the workplace, they're quite comprehensive.

So there's two items crossed of the list already! That's good.

joe40

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I said the loudest voices, not the foremost. the IPCC does a fantastic job at gathering data and releasing reports, but its the people who translate what the reports say into rhetoric and supply the packaged solution as above are who I'm talking about. Im even going to leave out greta Thunberg completely , but look at the proliferation of people abusing IPCC data for their agenda

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/24/is-socialism-the-answer-to-the-climate-catastrophe
https://inthesetimes.com/article/socialism-anti-capitalism-economic-reform
https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.18772/22018020541.7?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents
https://www.socialist.net/ipcc-report-revolutionary-change-needed-to-avert-disaster.htm
https://dbknews.com/2018/10/31/climate-change-ipcc-communism-environment/
https://www.globalpolicyjournal.com/blog/19/11/2018/interview-climate-change-product-how-capitalism-values-nature

I can do the same thing for any issue, womens rights included. Im a solutions focussed person and Id just like the problem identified , a solution that isn't the magic marx bullet worked upon and the problem solved.

How are any of those publications the loudest voice. The Guardian is mainstream but still tiny readership compared to the Sun or the daily mail.

The rest are not mainstream media. they're coming from an established position.