Exit Strategy

end of the road

Deleted User wrote: »

If that is true, it's absolutely scandalous. Similar to Doctors in the States admitting to incentives for putting down deaths as "Covid", whether it was the primary cause of death or not.

Indicates they want higher numbers on record. For what?

there would be no reason for doctors here to want higher numbers on record, what would be the point?
america is a totally different entity altogether where the whole lot is set up completely wrong and money rules everything, there isn't any point in trying to compare us to them as thankfully we are nothing like them, dispite what faults we do have.

end of the road

mikekerry wrote: »

Luxury services. What!
Thee is no need of any of these 'luxury services' being closed if the country was managed properly.
Plenty of other countries have kept pubs, restaurants open.
Just requires a little intelligence and good governance

other countries have put capacity restrictions on such businesses with a warning that they would be closed if they do not comply.
the capacity restrictions have generally been complied with and apart from some cases large numbers don't visit at the one time but spread out.
the problem here and in britain as that there are a number who won't comply, so it was easier just to shut them.
we have changed tack however and implemented greater capacity restrictions in exchange for allowing them to reopen but we had to go into level 5 so everything shuts down again temporarily, however the newer and tbh better restrictions will serve much better when level 5 is lifted as pubs will be able to reopen as well as the rest.

Thierry12

PommieBast wrote: »

€98 per test multiplied by population of about 5 million multiplied by....

Honestly do a google before posting rubbish like that

Slovakia are using antigen tests

They are €5-€10 a test

Population is 5.45m there

Peanuts in comparison to our lockdown costs

Thierry12

froog wrote: »

and what then? hope to fcuk you don't get a second outbreak and have to do the entire thing again at massive cost and risk mass rioting?

it's dumb.

You test the whole population every 2 weeks at a cost of €25-50m for the tests and throw the positives into a hotel and don't let them out

Secure your border and test at airports and throw them into a hotel too

Logistics and organisation

Slovakia will do it and we will have dicks in our hands all winter

Antigen tests are €5 and accurate now

Only fools wont do mass testing in the future

Thats me

PommieBast wrote: »

€98 per test multiplied by population of about 5 million multiplied by....

LOL, this is price of labour only, it is excluding "Capital costs of the centres, equipment and reagent".. Resembles stories like this https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/only-the-pentagon-could-spend-640-on-a-toilet-seat/ or this https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/16/AR2007081602230.html

Thierry12

Hego Damask wrote: »

https://youtu.be/lKCTkLJbtT4


OK that's enough internet for me ....

Wouldn't have believed it last year

Not now

is_that_so

Deleted User wrote: »

This does not equal a specific nationwide Covid Ad campaign for everybody to up their Vitamin D and other supplement intake to boost immune systems. I personally haven't heard or seen a single thing re: this from the government.
https://www.endocrinologynetwork.com/view/irish-doctors-call-changes-government-vitamin-d-recommendations

Is this public enough for you?

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/f42a0-ministers-donnelly-ogorman-and-feighan-launch-first-ever-national-healthy-eating-guidelines-for-one-to-four-year-olds-kidspyramid/

Vitamin D in relation to COVID is more to do with boosting the immune system. Linking it to COVID only is not good public health policy as it delivers the wrong message about Vitamin D in general.

bush

end of the road wrote: »

they are absolutely objective, as i said i check a number of different sources for my news and all of them, from lbc to ITV generally provide the same information, which shows that absolutely the likes of rte and bbc are objective.
they also have to be by law and the guidelines that they work under.




collapsing a small, luxury part of it to save the majority of it is a necessary idea however unfortunately given the circumstances.
the reality is that quite likely if we did throw open the doors we would lose the lot, health system, economy etc.
if there were plenty of alternatives to lock downs then most countries would have tried at least 1 of them.

Can I ask what your job is?

polesheep

end of the road wrote: »

they are very reliable and good sources.
i do lots of cross referencing and research on topics and the bbc and rte are generally backed up when the research is done.

You dig a trench and you defend it. I won't be engaging with you again.

polesheep

polesheep wrote: »

You dig a trench and you defend it. I won't be engaging with you again.

You do like to bury your head in the sand rather than deal in facts.

polesheep

Deleted User wrote: »

You do like to bury your head in the sand rather than deal in facts.

As usual the obvious sails right over your head. I'm not engaging because the poster is burying his head in the sand and won't engage with facts. Go and play with your chemistry set.

is_that_so

is_that_so wrote: »

Is this public enough for you?

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/f42a0-ministers-donnelly-ogorman-and-feighan-launch-first-ever-national-healthy-eating-guidelines-for-one-to-four-year-olds-kidspyramid/

Vitamin D in relation to COVID is more to do with boosting the immune system. Linking it to COVID only is not good public health policy as it delivers the wrong message about Vitamin D in general.

It's an article on their website, concerning 1-4 year old kids :rolleyes:

I used Vitamin D as one, quick, simple example of something the government should perhaps encourage all people to take during the pandemic. Mention it a press conference, on radio etc etc, because a) it boosts the immune system, and b) studies suggest it can reduce the threat of Covid and severity of infection (see below).
Read my post properly again; you shouldn't need this explained to you twice :pac:

"New studies suggest vitamin D supplements could reduce the threat of Covid-19 by 54 per cent":
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-vitamin-d-reduce-risk-research-b624413.html

"Vitamin D deficiency raises COVID-19 infection risk by 77%, study finds":
https://www.upi.com/Health_News/2020/09/03/Vitamin-D-deficiency-raises-COVID-19-infection-risk-by-77-study-finds/7001599139929/

j@utis

Straight after summer season nobody should be short of vit D reserves.

is_that_so

is_that_so wrote: »

Is this public enough for you?

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/f42a0-ministers-donnelly-ogorman-and-feighan-launch-first-ever-national-healthy-eating-guidelines-for-one-to-four-year-olds-kidspyramid/

Vitamin D in relation to COVID is more to do with boosting the immune system. Linking it to COVID only is not good public health policy as it delivers the wrong message about Vitamin D in general.

Also, feel free to put your own trust completely in the government and HSE re: this. Nobody is perfect, but they've demonstrated a continuous track record of incompetence:

- Trolley scandal
- Cervical check scandal
- Going three times over Children's Hospital budget up towards €2bn
- Contact tracing mess
- Failing to close flights from China and Italy at the start of pandemic, when they were known Covid hotspots :rolleyes:
- Completely contradictory and confusing 'levels'/'guideline' systems
- Delaying important treatment and surgeries for things much more dangerous than Covid

I could go on and on, but you get the idea

mikekerry

j@utis wrote: »

Straight after summer season nobody should be short of vit D reserves.

You were obviously out of the country for the summer!

end of the road

polesheep wrote: »

As usual the obvious sails right over your head. I'm not engaging because the poster is burying his head in the sand and won't engage with facts. Go and play with your chemistry set.

you won't engage because you don't like facts and i have destroyed all of your points and arguments that i have engaged with, and if you continued to engage i would continue to destroy any further points and arguments that i would engage with.
that's fine, it means less work for me, but it is ridiculous to say someone is burying their head in the sand and accuse them of not playing with facts when it is you who refuses to do facts.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

You do like to bury your head in the sand rather than deal in facts.

Says the guy dropping random anecdotes about reinfection cases in the HSE, but can't provide proof Not saying I don't believe you, but it's a bit hypocritical of you to talk about 'facts' to him.

MrMusician18

SusieBlue wrote: »

Did someone really just refer to the loss over over 200k jobs this week as the loss of a ‘very small, luxury part of the economy’ or are my eyes deceiving me.
There is nothing small about shutting down retail, hotels, pubs, restaurants, gyms, beauticians, and hairdressers/barbers, among so many other smaller businesses and industries.
They are essential services to those who are employed in them and their clients.

The last time we had level 5 restrictions we had over 1.2 million people relying on financial support from the state, that is not a small amount of people and they should not be written off as collateral damage in this suicide mission the government are hell bent on sending us on.
It’s such an insensitive thing to say.

I really don't think you're in the position to lecture anyyone when you've admitted you've been having regular house parties.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Says the guy dropping random anecdotes about reinfection cases in the HSE, but can't provide proof Not saying I don't believe you, but it's a bit hypocritical of you to talk about 'facts' to him.

The data will eventually come out to prove I wasn't lying. There is cases of reinfection occuring in the HSE. However, you believe a doctor of chiropracty (or whatever the **** it's called). It's not a real health care profession.

d161

Deleted User wrote: »

Also, feel free to put your own trust completely in the government and HSE re: this. Nobody is perfect, but they've demonstrated a continuous track record of incompetence:

- Trolley scandal
- Cervical check scandal
- Going three times over Children's Hospital budget up towards €2bn
- Contact tracing mess
- Failing to close flights from China and Italy at the start of pandemic, when they were known Covid hotspots :rolleyes:
- Completely contradictory and confusing 'levels'/'guideline' systems
- Delaying important treatment and surgeries for things much more dangerous than Covid

I could go on and on, but you get the idea

And last year there was war over the children's hospital costing 2 billion. Yet this year multiples of that are being spent making people sit at home.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

The dat will eventually come out to prove I wasn't lying. There is cases of reinfection occuring in the HSE. However, you believe a doctor of chiropracty (or whatever the **** it's called). It's not a real health care profession.

The chiropractor guy was making solid points about the handling of the 'pandemic' in general, and concern re: direction it's all taking. He's received a lot of support from people with the same concerns.

In specific relation to the virus itself, I mentioned prior how Dr. Fauci, the 'nation's leading infectious disease expert', and go-to-guy during this pandemic, had stated in his NIH Virology Journal back in 2005 that "Chloroquine is a potent inhibitor of SARS coronavirus infection and spread". What's changed, there?

So, who should we actually listen to and believe? Guide us, Dazzler

Hego Damask

Hego Damask wrote: »

https://youtu.be/lKCTkLJbtT4


OK that's enough internet for me ....

That is incredibly grim.

j@utis

mikekerry wrote: »

You were obviously out of the country for the summer!

I got burned in irish sun several times on Brittas Bay, coast of co. Wicklow :eek:

expectationlost

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

But surely this can't be the official strategy, even if the government and NPHET privately believe it is what is most likely to happen.

Here's Leo highlighting the need for a more detailed and credible exit strategy this time round, although he doesn't really spell out what it should be.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/health-officials-say-coronavirus-out-of-control-and-warn-of-2-500-cases-a-day-by-end-of-month-1.4382347

was Leo not involved with coming up with the Living with Covid plan that he subsequently criticized?

irishblessing

Deleted User wrote: »

That is incredibly grim.

If it's not true it would make an excellent film... great material. :pac:

H8GHOTI

Micheal Martin went on tv the other night & said there is no plan to do anything different next time we open up.  It’s inevitable that this is going to happen again, there is nothing we can do, just accept it.  January 2021, hello wave 3.  Some attitude to have as a leader of a country.  Also, admitted we’re fûcked without a vaccine. 
 
The way we opened up clearly didn’t work.  So why do the same thing again?  These lockdowns are not worth it, just to have a couple of good months.  What could we change?
 
The restrictions of lower levels need to be enforced more and encouraged.  Fines might help with this but they are already saying they’ll be a last resort.  Guidelines are near pointless.  We can’t follow them.  We need restrictions that can’t be broken. We need to act faster as well. I think it was obvious Dublin was a problem for a while but they hesitated.
 
-        WFH should be part of Level 1.  If someone is able to work from home, they should.  Going to workplaces is unnecessary for many & just giving the virus extra chances to spread.  Watching the news, you see plenty of examples.  Do the reporters need to be at the press conferences? Could they ask their questions by video link?  Do contact tracers need to be in an open plan office sitting less than 2 meters from colleagues?  It sets a bad example.

-        Bars/restaurants.  For months, they were crying “Give us a chance, we’ll show you that we can operate safely”. Bollocks.  Many examples of bars serving drinks without food during that phase.  Wet pubs were busy when they opened.  Not table service only. Congregation at smoking areas.  Needs to be much stricter next time.  Limit the number allowed, based on the size of a premises and actually enforce the regulations that are in place.  Owners need to be responsible because the general public have no self constraint.  Penalise bars for non-compliance.

-        Test & Trace.  They’re hiring more staff this week.  Like it’s a surprise the cases increased.  ****ing hell.  I’ve seen discussions around schools & what is a close contact. They should just be testing more, not looking for excuses not to test. 

If there’s issues with the covid app, fix them.  If usage is down, do a media campaign to try increase the users again. 

-        Where are the cases coming from?  Not just household or community transmission, more detail is needed.  Is it available?  If so, it’s not reported well enough.  Philip Nolan said at one stage contact tracers weren’t finding out where people were catching the virus because it was too labour intensive. I’d say the benefit of hiring more staff would outweigh the cost.

Problem areas should be focused on.  If it’s impossible to have pubs open safely, then sadly they’ll have to stay closed or at least reduced hours.  This week people from shops, gyms, cinemas, hairdressers are all out of work and will there be much benefit?

-        Schools?  Divisive subject, I know.  The data is saying they are safe but also the case numbers among the school going age groups has risen greatly.  Is it a coincidence that this thing has exploded again since schools went back?  Has there been much mass testing done in schools?  Don’t mind the close contact ****e just test a whole school, see what the spread is like.  Could find a load of asymptomatic cases.  Are they afraid to do this incase it shows it is in fact a problem.  I guess the next few weeks could tell a lot. 

Closing primary schools is very difficult.  But secondary?  Is there anything that could be done differently?  Have 4th, 5th & 6th years at home for remote learning.  That would cut down on the numbers mixing.
 
This attitude of just accepting a 3rd wave & subsequent lockdown stinks.  When it’s obvious your original plan didn’t work, don’t do the exact same thing again.

Loafing Oaf

H8GHOTI wrote: »

This attitude of just accepting a 3rd wave & subsequent lockdown stinks.  When it’s obvious your original plan didn’t work, don’t do the exact same thing again.

But doing the same thing over and over with no expectation of a different result, what's that? Fatalism? Lack of imagination? Total ineptitude?

mikekerry

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

But doing the same thing over and over with no expectation of a different result, what's that? Fatalism? Lack of imagination? Total ineptitude?

Just gross incompetence,laziness to alternative solutions and stupidity i think

timeToLive

So when do we think we'll be in lockdown #3?

suicide_circus

d161 wrote: »

And last year there was war over the children's hospital costing 2 billion. Yet this year multiples of that are being spent making people sit at home.

lol yeah remember that? Small change now!

tobefrank321

timeToLive wrote: »

So when do we think we'll be in lockdown #3?

It will be rolled back to level 3 in early December. It will be rolled forward to level 5 again mid January.

We'll be between levels 3 and 5 for most if not all of 2021.

If the vaccine provides sterilising immunity (prevents you being infected and infecting others) and is at least 90% effective in high risk categories, life will return to normal in 2022.

If it doesn't provide sterilising immunity and is only partially effective in high risk categories our exit strategy will be herd immunity in a couple years time but of course that relies on probably 70% of the population being infected whether they are vacccinated or not. Herd immunity is going to happen eventually, the question is when not if.

Loafing Oaf

timeToLive wrote: »

So when do we think we'll be in lockdown #3?

I'd say March/April, just a year on from lockdown 1

Away With The Fairies

tobefrank321 wrote: »

It will be rolled back to level 3 in early December. It will be rolled forward to level 5 again mid January.

We'll be between levels 3 and 5 for most if not all of 2021.

If the vaccine provides sterilising immunity (prevents you being infected and infecting others) and is at least 90% effective in high risk categories, life will return to normal in 2022.

If it doesn't provide sterilising immunity and is only partially effective in high risk categories our exit strategy will be herd immunity in a couple years time but of course that relies on probably 70% of the population being infected whether they are vacccinated or not. Herd immunity is going to happen eventually, the question is when not if.

How is herd immunity an option with re-infections? It's going around in circles.

Dickie10

the vaccine will be given maybe almost mandatory during autumn 2021, the government will then begin to try to disentangle themselves from this, i would think they will have scrambled loads more icu beds, they must be thinking that theres a good chance case numbers will be persistantly high for months after vaccine comes out so they will step down NYPHET this time next year, start rolling back restrictions to say level2-3 for xmas 21, then hope to God the vaccine works. I think they will begin to divert the public away from covid19 news there may be still guidance on covid control but they will keep it fairly low key, no real restrictions anymore in 2022, now we could and will have maybe 1000 cases a day in summer 2022 but the nations eyes will be averted, old people will die of flu/virus/old age/coplications but not a lot will be down as covid even though it could well be. this is the only hope we have to get out of this social experiment, we give the vaccine a shot and hope for the best and start to stop thinking and looking for info on covid.

heres the thing if we were never told anything about covid would the ordinary joe on the stret have really copped it was anything more than a bad aul dose going around? yes people die in nursing homes , thats part and parcel of life in a nurseing home, surely it happens every winter a flu virus gets in and takes a few people within a few weeks, how many other virus are out there right now taking us , infecting us, perhaps causing cancer? if we lived thinking about your head would fry.you cant think that way.

i suppose like if you got the choice of cancer or covid who wouldnt choose covid all day?

froog

everyone's alternative plan to lockdowns is just various measures from levels 3-5.

Dickie10

mine is until the vaccine then we have to let people get the shot or not and throw off all restrictions and hope for the best. i feel 2021 will be another year of restrictions between 2 and 5.

tobefrank321

Away With The Fairies wrote: »

How is herd immunity an option with re-infections? It's going around in circles.

10 or less confirmed reinfections out of 40 million plus confirmed cases.

If you want to make a big deal out of reinfection workaway.

You've a far higher chance of being struck by lightening or winning the lotto than being reinfected at present.

Away With The Fairies

tobefrank321 wrote: »

10 or less confirmed reinfections out of 40 million plus confirmed cases.

If you want to make a big deal out of reinfection workaway.

You've a far higher chance of being struck by lightening or winning the lotto than being reinfected at present.

A poster in the main thread who works in a hospital has seen his colleagues be re-infected but the HSE is being quite on that. But no doubt you'll find another excuse to dismiss reality.

tobefrank321

Away With The Fairies wrote: »

A poster in the main thread who works in a hospital has seen his colleagues be re-infected but the HSE is being quite on that. But no doubt you'll find another excuse to dismiss reality.

Source, evidence, link?

Facts? Or anecdotes?

And do you think every healthcare system in the world is also keeping quiet about it?

If so, conspiracy forum that way >>

Unless its been proven, then yes its easy to dismiss.

Strumms

Dickie10 wrote: »

the vaccine will be given maybe almost mandatory during autumn 2021, the government will then begin to try to disentangle themselves from this, i would think they will have scrambled loads more icu beds, they must be thinking that theres a good chance case numbers will be persistantly high for months after vaccine comes out so they will step down NYPHET this time next year, start rolling back restrictions to say level2-3 for xmas 21, then hope to God the vaccine works. I think they will begin to divert the public away from covid19 news there may be still guidance on covid control but they will keep it fairly low key, no real restrictions anymore in 2022, now we could and will have maybe 1000 cases a day in summer 2022 but the nations eyes will be averted, old people will die of flu/virus/old age/coplications but not a lot will be down as covid even though it could well be. this is the only hope we have to get out of this social experiment, we give the vaccine a shot and hope for the best and start to stop thinking and looking for info on covid.

?

Scrambling more ICU beds hmmmm... where do we get people to staff them ..?

Do you have a magic tree to pull qualified doctors, ICU surgeons, qualified ICU critical care nurses, carers, anesthesiologists, all the equipment ?

It’s nowhere near as easy as just saying “ ok, a load of doctors and nurses into that ward, that’s icu now “.

DeanAustin

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Source, evidence, link?

Facts? Or anecdotes?

And do you think every healthcare system in the world is also keeping quiet about it?

If so, conspiracy forum that way >>

Unless its been proven, then yes its easy to dismiss.

Next you’ll be telling me that all these people saying they had it last December aren’t genuine cases too.

end of the road

tobefrank321 wrote: »

10 or less confirmed reinfections out of 40 million plus confirmed cases.

If you want to make a big deal out of reinfection workaway.

You've a far higher chance of being struck by lightening or winning the lotto than being reinfected at present.

that's really irrelevant though as it's not the number of reinfections that is the issue for the herd immunity nonsense, but the fact reinfections can happen.

polesheep

Away With The Fairies wrote: »

A poster in the main thread who works in a hospital has seen his colleagues be re-infected but the HSE is being quite on that. But no doubt you'll find another excuse to dismiss reality.

That poster couldn't provide a shred of evidence to back up what he wrote.

tom1ie

We may never get a vaccine for this.
There has never been a vaccine for a corona virus.

We will have to live with this, and that involves opening up economy’s as they were, BUT, if we want to protect the vulnerable, masks must be worn, social distancing must be adhered to and hands must be sanitised.
This will continue until herd immunity is reached at approx 70% or a vaccine is developed. (That’s presuming herd immunity is indeed possible.)

PopePalpatine

tom1ie wrote: »

We may never get a vaccine for this.
There has never been a vaccine for a corona virus.

I'll go out on a limb here and guess that the last coronavirus to wreak this much havoc on society probably predates germ theory.

polesheep

tom1ie wrote: »

We may never get a vaccine for this.
There has never been a vaccine for a corona virus.

We will have to live with this, and that involves opening up economy’s as they were, BUT, if we want to protect the vulnerable, masks must be worn, social distancing must be adhered to and hands must be sanitised.
This will continue until herd immunity is reached at approx 70% or a vaccine is developed. (That’s presuming herd immunity is indeed possible.)

But if you continue with those precautions, herd immunity may never be reached.

DaSilva

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I'll go out on a limb here and guess that the last coronavirus to wreak this much havoc on society probably predates germ theory.

Maybe, maybe not. Supposedly a Danish researcher has a paper in the works on this too with more evidence it was OC43, but it hasn't been published yet

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7252012/

IN 1889, a disease outbreak in central Asia went global, igniting a pandemic that burned into the following year. It caused fever and fatigue, and killed an estimated 1 million people. The disease is generally blamed on influenza, and was dubbed “Russian flu“. But with no tissue samples to check for the flu virus, there is no conclusive proof.

Another possibility is that this “flu” was actually a coronavirus pandemic. The finger has been pointed at a virus first isolated in the 1960s, though today it causes nothing more serious than a common cold. In fact, there are four coronaviruses responsible for an estimated 20 to 30 per cent of colds. Only recently have virologists begun to dig into these seemingly humdrum pathogens and what they have found suggests the viruses have a far more deadly past. Researchers now believe that all four of these viruses began to infect humans in the past few centuries and, when they did, they probably sparked pandemics.

PopePalpatine

Stop drinking the hand sanitiser. Get some help.

tom1ie

polesheep wrote: »

But if you continue with those precautions, herd immunity may never be reached.

Well this is the thing.
We are doing these precautions and getting approx 1000 cases a day anyway.
So if we go for herd immunity without precautions we risk a collapse of the health service.

H8GHOTI

froog wrote: »

everyone's alternative plan to lockdowns is just various measures from levels 3-5.

Well ya? Is that a surprise?
Besides herd immunity, the other option is some kind of restrictions. The government have covered pretty much all the bases throughout the levels. It’s not really possible to talk about this topic without mentioning the same measures.

The discussion is around which of the measures we should use & at what stage. Could we tweak anything to make it more effective? Should enforcement be better? Could contact tracing be more efficient. After this lockdown, is it possible to open up in such a way that we don’t get a 3rd wave?