Exit Strategy

end of the road

PommieBast wrote: »

For people who have had relationship breakups due to Covid keeping schools open at the expense of everything else is pretty grating. They are not going to sit at home indefinately for someone else's kids.

they don't have to sit at home, just follow the very minimal and basic things being asked of them while we have a contagious virus.
the fact is that keeping schools open is ultimately more important then keeping non-essential stuff open.
after all, people were cribbing when the schools weren't open and when they opened them the same people are cribbing because they opened them, showing ultimately damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Loafing Oaf

end of the road wrote: »

ultimately yes, we semi-restrict all of us on a temporary basis and restrict or with-hold non-essential stuff to minimise the spread of the virus and allow everyone to live a basic life.

I also think this is only way to break the cycle of lockdown-opening up-back to lockdown, but I was hoping someone would suggest a more palatable approach.

Infini

Pitch n Putt wrote: »

So we restrict the other 70% of the population indefinitely?

Cancel all social events, sports fixtures,weddings,travel etc etc

Stop everything for how long 1,2,5 years ??

Wait for a vaccine that may never arrive is that the saviour of life as we know it?

Don’t forget with all the above restrictions in place schools remain open workplaces remain operational, You can travel around the country for work during the week but travels an issue at weekends

Sorry now but we just can’t continue down the chosen path by NPHET it’s reckless to say the least.

It means hold of on social events until sometime next year at least, this virus wont last years, was on the radio today that there's 19 different candidate vaccines in development according to the WHO. Goverments are putting a huge amount of financial resources into stamping out this thing they can't afford to have it running years either. My own feeling is this should be coming to an end around June or so next year but that for at least this coming winter most things are a write off, this poxy virus is everywhere atm.

Just need to cop on, dont gather in large groups, social distance etc, limit physical contacts to only what's necessary and this thing can be kept under control, it's getting out of hand because people in their frustration about the current reality aren't giving a damn when they should be and because of it were facing another lockdown scenario.

Ignoring things in a fit of anger or utter selfish "i dont give a fúck" attitude isnt going to make the virus go away, its going to make it goddamn worse. All well and good saying this and that until the hospital system collapses and everyone's up shít creek.

The_Brood

I mean there is no longer any positive exit strategy. We have lost completely. The only question at the end is will we hold these politicians accountable for ruining us. Will there be at least a slither of justice. People need to go to prison for this.

Sheepdish1

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

I also think this is only way to break the cycle of lockdown-opening up-back to lockdown, but I was hoping someone would suggest a more palatable approach.

Lockdowns should only be used as last resort to buy time and stop healthcare becoming overrun . Testing, tracing and isolating of possible contacts is what needs to be done to tackle covid.

Lockdowns are used to buy time and are not a solution longterm particularly with not enforcing incoming travellers to quarantine and sharing a boarder with another country.

The_Brood

The_Brood wrote: »

I mean there is no longer any positive exit strategy. We have lost completely. The only question at the end is will we hold these politicians accountable for ruining us. Will there be at least a slither of justice. People need to go to prison for this.

You are crazy to send people to jail for completely non criminal acts aren't ya?

Wanderer78

The_Brood wrote:

I mean there is no longer any positive exit strategy. We have lost completely. The only question at the end is will we hold these politicians accountable for ruining us. Will there be at least a slither of justice. People need to go to prison for this.

Prison, for what?

Pitch n Putt

end of the road wrote: »

ultimately yes, we semi-restrict all of us on a temporary basis and restrict or with-hold non-essential stuff to minimise the spread of the virus and allow everyone to live a basic life.
schools remain open because children do still have to be educated, i would agree not closing them could be a bad call but i certainly understand why they aren't closing them.
nphet haven't chosen anything, that was the government. nphet simply advise and the government make the decisions, nphet are not responsible for any decisions the government make nor does nphet call the shots like some seem to think.

You obviously haven’t been following the ****show for the last 4-5 months.
The government are afraid of their life to make a decision.
They are so afraid of accountability for this they even put another committee between themselves and any decisions.
All the time it’s NPHET advised this , we’re going by public health advice.
Taoiseach directing all questions towards the deputy CMO at one press conference.

Absolute joke of a government and in the last few weeks they have actually pushed back a bit against NPHET due to some unrest internally in Leinster house but their have been even more mixed messages since.

NPHET are blind to real life , The government are absolutely useless beyond belief and the country is going down the drain but sure let’s continue this way aimlessly plodding along with everybody’s life on hold for a virus that many who get tested for don’t even know they have it.

I’ve said it before whoever is making the decisions regarding restrictions need to move away from basing them on cases only.

Any restrictions must now be based on ADMISSIONS TO HOSPITALS WITH COVID only.

Wanderer78

Pitch n Putt wrote:

Any restrictions must now be based on ADMISSIONS TO HOSPITALS WITH COVID only.

What do you mean?

Pitch n Putt

Wanderer78 wrote: »

What do you mean?

Of the 7000 plus cases last week how many needed hospitalisation ?
With only 18 admissions in previous 24 hours and 9 people discharged from hospital this gives an increase of 9 patients yesterday.

So 7400 cases with let’s just say 20 per day hospital admissions (very high estimation)the other 7260 many of which will be asymptomatic recover at home within ten days
These 7260 are in effect just cases but we want to shutdown everything indefinitely because of these high case numbers....

Restrictions need to be based solely on just hospital admissions with covid.

Not someone going for a routine procedure who happens to be a symptomatic when tested.

Just purely Covid admissions.

Wanderer78

Pitch n Putt wrote: »

Of the 7000 plus cases last week how many needed hospitalisation ?
With only 18 admissions in previous 24 hours and 9 people discharged from hospital this gives an increase of 9 patients yesterday.

So 7400 cases with let’s just say 20 per day hospital admissions (very high estimation)the other 7260 many of which will be asymptomatic recover at home within ten days
These 7260 are in effect just cases but we want to shutdown everything indefinitely because of these high case numbers....

Restrictions need to be based solely on just hospital admissions with covid.

Not someone going for a routine procedure who happens to be a symptomatic when tested.

Just purely Covid admissions.

so what do we do with all other hospital admissions?

Pitch n Putt

Wanderer78 wrote: »

so what do we do with all other hospital admissions?

It’s rolling admissions and discharge daily.

We done the first lockdown to flatten the curve and protect the hospitals when we didn’t know what virus was about.

Now we know it’s a mild illness for most but we’re still heading for another seesaw lockdown.

When cases were at very low numbers in July August we sat on our hands and did nothing so now we’re supposed to return to lockdown again

A lockdown based solely on high case numbers

We’re supposed to be living with covid not existing with it

And it’s all to protect our inept mismanaged over funded health service.

Wanderer78

Pitch n Putt wrote: »

It’s rolling admissions and discharge daily.

We done the first lockdown to flatten the curve and protect the hospitals when we didn’t know what virus was about.

Now we know it’s a mild illness for most but we’re still heading for another seesaw lockdown.

When cases were at very low numbers in July August we sat on our hands and did nothing so now we’re supposed to return to lockdown again

A lockdown based solely on high case numbers

We’re supposed to be living with covid not existing with it

And it’s all to protect our inept mismanaged over funded health service.

what should we do with those that require longer term care?

our health care system has been drastically underfunded for decades now, highly destructive economic policies such as austerity have been just that, particularly for the health care system. and its also important to remember the inefficiencies of the involvement of the private sector in our health care system, rent-seeking activities etc

Pitch n Putt

Wanderer78 wrote: »

what should we do with those that require longer term care?

our health care system has been drastically underfunded for decades now, highly destructive economic policies such as austerity have been just that, particularly for the health care system. and its also important to remember the inefficiencies of the involvement of the private sector in our health care system, rent-seeking activities etc

One of the highest funded systems in Europe but mismanagement from the top down has left us with a third world system that will now in effect be the cause of economic destruction of our country as we try to protect said system.

No one is responsible though. We will commission a few reports in time that will find nothing wrong and the show will go on and on.

Wanderer78

Pitch n Putt wrote: »

One of the highest funded systems in Europe but mismanagement from the top down has left us with a third world system that will now in effect be the cause of economic destruction of our country as we try to protect said system.

No one is responsible though. We will commission a few reports in time that will find nothing wrong and the show will go on and on.

once again, not only is our health care systems faults due to the effect of inefficiencies of the public system, but also the inefficiencies of the interaction with the private system, and highly destructive policies such as austerity etc etc. the existence of the virus is in fact leading to our economic issues, of which we were forewarned of, but decided it was best to implement such dangerous policies anyway.

JojoLoca

Multipass wrote: »

zero covid is absolutely not possible with a vaccine. The vaccines being developed ameliorate symptoms, nothing more. There will still be people catching Covid, and there will still be people dying from covid. The question is will we abandon all of the current measures we’re taking to save them.

This is what I've been thinking myself. People seem to think a vaccine is some sort of magic injection which will cure you and make you immune to Covid within seconds. It will not. As with any vaccinations, you can still get infected, although with less or no symptoms. Even if you have no symptoms you might still be spreading it to others (that's what is happening currently and we don't know if vaccine will change that). It's also possible that vaccine won't work on some people and they will die or get seriously sick. So Covid won't stop with the vaccine in a short period of time, as many seem to think.

polesheep

amadangomor wrote: »

Give over. It's a piece of material on your face.

If someone can't wear one they shouldn't go to work/shops etc.

And if someone is very vulnerable shouldn't that advice apply to them too?

Dravokivich

Pitch n Putt wrote: »

One of the highest funded systems in Europe but mismanagement from the top down has left us with a third world system that will now in effect be the cause of economic destruction of our country as we try to protect said system.

No one is responsible though. We will commission a few reports in time that will find nothing wrong and the show will go on and on.

Our healthcare is not 3rd world.

paw patrol

Pitch n Putt wrote: »

One of the highest funded systems in Europe but mismanagement from the top down has left us with a third world system that will now in effect be the cause of economic destruction of our country as we try to protect said system.

No one is responsible though. We will commission a few reports in time that will find nothing wrong and the show will go on and on.

This is galling after all the taxes we pay for the health system and it is creak at the thought of 50+ new cases in ICU
Those admissions are on the drip too (as in singular cases one by one0 How on earth would the HSE deal with a disaster like a massive bus crash, bomb, chemical spill?


It's mental that they are destroying the country and peoples lives over civil service mismanagement because it's ain't covid

polesheep

bilbot79 wrote: »

I honestly think if we get the numbers down again we should then do planned 2 week lockdowns every 6 weeks. The virus would be kept in check and businesses would have certainty

That's called creeping herd immunity. Why not speed it up while protecting the very vulnerable as best as possible?

polesheep

Rodin wrote: »

No evidence for herd immunity being realistically achievable.

Theres is no evidence against it. Just ethical reasons.

polesheep

Deleted User wrote: »

How do you shield people who need home help?

PPE

B.A._Baracus

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Pretty much this.

We will keep locking down until there is a vaccine or our resources run out.

In an extremely PC, social media, hysteria driven world, we have decided that a mild illness is worth destroying the world for.

Mild illness huh?
But it's ok everybody. Forget what doctors say around the world, nphet, the who etc. A random person by the name of jacdaniel2014 on boards.ie said it's a mild virus.

Multipass

Dravokivich wrote: »

Our healthcare is not 3rd world.

The waiting times are though.

B.A._Baracus

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Mild illness huh?
But it's ok everybody. Forget what doctors say around the world, nphet, the who etc. A random person by the name of jacdaniels on boards.ie said it's a mild virus.

Here's a Doctor for ya:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTydBWQVKQ0

spaceHopper

The only way out of this before a vaccine is "Test Trace Isolate" the reason for the March lock down was to allow the hospitals the get ready and to get setup for contact tracing and isolating them. We f1cked both of those up

Kermit.de.frog

Pitch n Putt wrote: »

Restrictions need to be based solely on just hospital admissions with covid.

Not someone going for a routine procedure who happens to be a symptomatic when tested.

Just purely Covid admissions.

Nope because once admissions soar it's already too late.

We have to be proactive, not reactive.

Danno

There is no strategy, let alone an exit one. This is the Irish Govt we are talking about here.

NEPHET would have the country locked up for 4 years if they had their way. The only see a virus, nothing else exists.

Loafing Oaf

spaceHopper wrote: »

The only way out of this before a vaccine is "Test Trace Isolate"

Can this alone keep the virus suppressed in Ireland? I believe this strategy has succeeded in South Korea, but they are a very disciplined and socially responsible society. Even if the TTI system is set up to the optimum, can we rely on Irish people to get tested as soon they get symptoms, and to isolate themselves comprehensively for the requisite period if they are identified as a contact?

cnbyz

How come sealing the country off has never been an option ? Not even at level 5. Does the government really trust people flying in to restrict their movements for 14 days ? Its not realistic. I know for a fact that they dont do it.

B.A._Baracus

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Mild illness huh?
But it's ok everybody. Forget what doctors say around the world, nphet, the who etc. A random person by the name of jacdaniel2014 on boards.ie said it's a mild virus.

If this virus has thought us anything, it should be to question the experts more.

The experts predicted doomsday. Have a look back at the early models that countries used to enter lockdown.

321123

The government coalition wants more restrictions and the so called opposition led by SF is cheering on (with hints that they want even more, SD seems to have profiled themselves as extra anti-travel for example).

Is there none of the parties that are vocal for something else than restrictions? No one that will atleast try to pull the hand break on this oncoming madness?

B.A._Baracus

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Here's a Doctor for ya:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTydBWQVKQ0

Thanks for posting that.
I started it with an open mind and he had me genuinely listening to what he was saying and taking his points in. Then he states how he doesn't wear a mask and gets refused services in shops.

Is it that hard to wear a mask for what, 5 or 10 or whatever minutes while he does some shopping? Is social etiquette in these times that hard? (That being wearing a mask is just the thing to do when in shops with others etc)

He lost me after that to be honest.

wpd

Kildare outlet jammed yesterday as if it was the weekend before christmas

where are all the garda checkpoints stopping people leaving their counties???

What is the point bringing in more restrictions when the ones we have arent being adhered to
I have not seen one car turned around yet at one of those garda checkpoints

Loafing Oaf

321123 wrote: »

The government coalition wants more restrictions and the so called opposition led by SF is cheering on (with hints that they want even more, SD seems to have profiled themselves as extra anti-travel for example).

Is there none of the parties that are vocal for something else than restrictions?

Why would there be? All the opposition parties are officially to the left of the government and would nature favour a 'nanny state' approach to this sort of crisis.

B.A._Baracus

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If this virus has thought us anything, it should be to question the experts more.

The experts predicted doomsday. Have a look back at the early models that countries used to enter lockdown.

With regards to blindingly trusting experts - I get what you're saying. Only a fool would believe everything and anything from everyone.

But the scary thing is none of us know how we would react to the virus. People have died and people have gotten messed up from it. Sure not everyone however but would you like to take that chance? I wouldn't.

Take https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/fifty-six-covid-19-cases-linked-to-man-who-failed-to-isolate-after-trip-abroad-1.4384378?mode=amp
One man infects 56 people.

Would you really like to be one of those 56? Not I, you or anyone else on this planet can safely say all 56 will have mild symptoms.

dmakc

What in the name of F is their endgame goal here in however many weeks. How low can we get numbers from shutting up shop while schools etc stay open. We need to establish a level we're comfortable with because the summer days of <5 cases per day are not coming back

Loafing Oaf

dmakc wrote: »

We need to establish a level we're comfortable with because the summer days of <5 cases per day are not coming back

It doesn't seem that levels of covid can be stabilised in that way. If the virus is present in the company in any significant way it will keep spreading and eventually get out of control.

321123

321123 wrote: »

The government coalition wants more restrictions and the so called opposition led by SF is cheering on (with hints that they want even more, SD seems to have profiled themselves as extra anti-travel for example).

Is there none of the parties that are vocal for something else than restrictions? No one that will atleast try to pull the hand break on this oncoming madness?

Because it’s quite obvious that it is the only option, a few posters on a forum of course think they know better than experts and experienced politicians though.

Wanderer78

paw patrol wrote: »

This is galling after all the taxes we pay for the health system and it is creak at the thought of 50+ new cases in ICU
Those admissions are on the drip too (as in singular cases one by one0 How on earth would the HSE deal with a disaster like a massive bus crash, bomb, chemical spill?


It's mental that they are destroying the country and peoples lives over civil service mismanagement because it's ain't covid

again, our health care systems issues are not exclusively due to the inefficiencies and mistakes of the public sector, but also of the involvement of the private sector

Kivaro

cnbyz wrote: »

How come sealing the country off has never been an option ? Not even at level 5. Does the government really trust people flying in to restrict their movements for 14 days ? Its not realistic. I know for a fact that they dont do it.

Do you know what would mostly solve this problem?
A €5 - €10 antigen test at airports. Do a test at the airport when you go and when you arrive back. They do it at German airports and elsewhere in Europe, but not in Ireland. Wonder why not?

Wanderer78

Deleted User wrote: »

If this virus has thought us anything, it should be to question the experts more.

The experts predicted doomsday. Have a look back at the early models that countries used to enter lockdown.

'all models are wrong, but some are useful'

hmmm

Erick Sweet Gourd wrote: »

Because it’s quite obvious that it is the only option, a few posters on a forum of course think they know better than experts and experienced politicians though.

Pages and pages of arguments, and not one person has said what is supposed to be the alternative to hospitals running out of space.

Telling people at the door who can barely breath that the "virus isn't real" or "it's just a flu bro" is not a strategy, and neither is telling people in a car crash that there is no room for them because all the ICU beds are full.

It's been repeated over and over again that the exit strategy is vaccines, treatments and rapid testing. Until those are available to us, we're trying to manage this as best we can without mass death and serious illness. I know it's **** but it's all we have.

pgj2015

wpd wrote: »

Kildare outlet jammed yesterday as if it was the weekend before christmas

where are all the garda checkpoints stopping people leaving their counties???

What is the point bringing in more restrictions when the ones we have arent being adhered to
I have not seen one car turned around yet at one of those garda checkpoints

not enough checkpoints but even if there was, there is no one stopping people travelling on trains and busses. level 4 wont make any difference.

polesheep

polesheep wrote: »

That's called creeping herd immunity. Why not speed it up while protecting the very vulnerable as best as possible?

Why hasn't herd immunity worked on the seasonal flu?

Wanderer78

Deleted User wrote: »

Why hasn't herd immunity worked on the seasonal flu?

has the herd immunity approach with covid, worked anywhere?

https://twitter.com/i/status/1317769293589864449

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Here's a Doctor for ya:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTydBWQVKQ0

He's not a real doctor. He's a chiropractor. Chiropractors are renowned world wide for their authoritative views on infectious diseases and respiratory illnesses.....:pac::pac::pac:

Like, come on. Surely you look at links before you post them

Rodin

Checkpoints are worthless without legislation to legally enforce restrictions.

Many people can not be trusted to do the right thing and it is those such as the 56 case super spreader that must be tackled.

The 4 E's is nonsense. Every one of the 4 should be Enforcement.

B.A._Baracus

[Deleted User] wrote: »

He's not a real doctor. He's a chiropractor. Chiropractors are renowned world wide for their authoritative views on infectious diseases and respiratory illnesses.....:pac::pac::pac:

Like, come on. Surely you look at links before you post them

He's a Chiropractor?!??!??!?!?!??! :pac:

Loafing Oaf

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

He's a Chiropractor?!??!??!?!?!??! :pac:

In fairness he has more credibility than one of the guys cited in the masks thread, who was successfully sued for claiming the Sandy Hook school shooting never happened https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/sandy-hook-shooting-leonard-pozner-lawsuit-james-fetzer-900334/