Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VI - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

Rrrrrr2

manniot2 wrote: »

yes its very interesting. who knew, a nation of dramaqueen hypochondriacs

(Many) Irish people have never been good at proactively looking after their health - I know that from looking into my own extended family- there was and still a terrible attitude around smoking, drinking and exercise- so when something like this hits it’s not surprising a society like Ireland crumbles like it does really.

TRANQUILLO

TRANQUILLO wrote: »

I feel that Ivor Cummins deserves aa thread of his own as he is becoming quite a prolific commentator on the pandemic and associated data. His views are not in line with government or media consensus.

As a lay person with no medical expertise I like you all have been bombarded by science, pseudo science, mainstream media hysteria and social media tit for tats. It is hard to see the wood for the trees at this stage.

Then I came across this Ivor Cummins chap on youtube who coincidentally comes from our own shores.

I find his analysis quite compelling and nod along to most of his statements. My general opinion and feeling on the pandemic is matched by his analysis and reportage. Have I been fooled? Is he just selling me what I want to hear to garner lots of youtube clicks?

What am I missing? Is he a con man ? Why are NPHET , the government and main stream media not reporting/analysing the data in the same way as his hypotheses?

Are there more educated posters here who can debunk his contentions or give me an example of why this guy is a chancer/shill to be ignored going forward?

His latest video here for reference: https://youtu.be/gJq8MBgYJ4Q

i don't understand why this post was merged into this thread. This place is bizarre at times.

bucketybuck

Gradius wrote: »

You ignore that fact, and proudly proclaim that we could never do better than them.

No I didn't. I said that your plan wouldn't work, because it is a fundamentally flawed plan.

Penfailed

TRANQUILLO wrote: »

i don't understand why this post was merged into this thread. This place is bizarre at times.

You felt it deserved a thread of it's own, a mod didn't. The mod explained the reasoning. I think there's a forum in here somewhere that you put forward your case to the mods...but I can't find it to point you in the right direction.

drunkmonkey

What are we doing to ourselves....:(

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xISphGAzGmY

Gael23

I wonder what strings they will pull to enforce restrictions at Christmas

drunkmonkey

Gael23 wrote: »

I wonder what strings they will pull to enforce restrictions at Christmas

I'm not sure how much longer they can get away with it, The numbers ahead won't justify the destruction of our country.

TRANQUILLO

TRANQUILLO wrote: »

i don't understand why this post was merged into this thread. This place is bizarre at times.

I watched one of his videos. It doesn't a genius to realise that he's making conclusions without nearly enough evidence to back them up. A quick look through his videos shows he claims he's an engineer who specialises in nutrition whatever that is. He's the definition of a charlatan.

Idbatterim

Lads dint worry about christmas, theyll do short sharp lockdown before it, to ease restrictions over xmas things are looking sticky... good luck trying to cancel xmas after the year we have had. Maybe let pubs open till like midnight etc, all pubs. Definitely indoor dining.

charlie14

Deleted User wrote: »

I watched one of his videos. It doesn't a genius to realise that he's making conclusions without nearly enough evidence to back them up. A quick look through his videos shows he claims he's an engineer who specialises in nutrition whatever that is. He's the definition of a charlatan.

He`s a chemical engineer attempting to re-brand himself as a nutritional guru.
Good money in that nowadays if you can generate enough interest/controversy to stand out from the crowd.

Ice Albatross

Deleted User wrote: »

I watched one of his videos. It doesn't a genius to realise that he's making conclusions without nearly enough evidence to back them up. A quick look through his videos shows he claims he's an engineer who specialises in nutrition whatever that is. He's the definition of a charlatan.

Please post a link debunking anything that he has said. The fact a genuine thread asking for same was moved into here where most people are against restrictions also seemed strange to me. It was swallowed up in the rest. But his claims and data seemed legit to me. I tried to think of how it could be wrong but. really couldn't come up with anything

Please provide actual links, I know someone just said they were proven wrong already but that was all they said, no links provided

Edit:spelling

Ice Albatross

Ice Albatross wrote: »

Please post a link debunking anything that he has said. The fact a genuine thread asking for same was moved into here where most people are against restrictions also seemed strange to me. It was swallowed up in the rest. But his claims and data seemed legit to me. I tried to think of how it could be wrong but. really couldn't come up with anything

Please provide actual links, I know someone just said they were proven wrong already but that was all they said, no links provided

Edit:spelling

This thread is dedicated to the video I watched. I couldn't be arsed going through the video pointing out his specific points of nonsense. He's constantly adding 2+2 and getting 5. The huge problem with what he does is it seems like he's coming from a position of authority with all the graphs he produces.

Ice Albatross

Deleted User wrote: »

This thread is dedicated to the video I watched. I couldn't be arsed going through the video pointing out his specific points of nonsense. He's constantly adding 2+2 and getting 5. The huge problem with what he does is it seems like he's coming from a position of authority with all the graphs he produces.

I went through the first page of that thread and couldn't find any arguement against his data, just (true) claims that he's not a scientist. Surely if he's that bad you can easily debunk one of his. claims?

KennisWhale

Ice Albatross wrote: »

I went through the first page of that thread and couldn't find any arguement against his data, just (true) claims that he's not a scientist. Surely if he's that bad you can easily debunk one of his. claims?

That thread consists of a lot of trolls who completely ignore the points made in the video. Somewhat similar to the poster replying to you.

Ice Albatross

Ice Albatross wrote: »

I went through the first page of that thread and couldn't find any arguement against his data, just (true) claims that he's not a scientist. Surely if he's that bad you can easily debunk one of his. claims?

Off the top of my head, he attempts to prove masks don't work by looking at the number of cases and deaths at the time when they were made mandatory in various countries. There isn't a significant change in the trend. This isn't a proof by any stretch of the imagination. The fact that he says stuff like this so conclusively should be setting off alarm bells. He's constantly equating correlation with causation. I'm that specific example, there are hundreds of variables at play. The conclusion he makes is nonsense. Watch the video yourself. It's as if he starts with a conclusion and then bends over backwards to reach that conclusion.

KennisWhale

KennisWhale wrote: »

That thread consists of a lot of trolls who completely ignore the points made in the video. Somewhat similar to the poster replying to you.

Lol.

I went through the video in depth after my sister posted it to the family WhatsApp. I'm not hugely bothered by randoms on the Internet being unable to think critically, but I had to step in when my family were being duped.

Ice Albatross

Ice Albatross wrote: »

I went through the first page of that thread and couldn't find any arguement against his data, just (true) claims that he's not a scientist. Surely if he's that bad you can easily debunk one of his. claims?

Looking at the first page of the thread... 80% immunity? That's just complete nonsense. That should be enough to discount the video.

Ice Albatross

KennisWhale wrote: »

That thread consists of a lot of trolls who completely ignore the points made in the video. Somewhat similar to the poster replying to you.

The cynical side of me thinks you are dead right
If that's the case and the claims aren't unproven , why did mods move the. question to this thread though

patnor1011

Gradius wrote: »

Not the same thing.

They started out correctly. Successfully eliminated the virus. Back to relative normality.

The difference is that they opened the borders again. They were infected again. Shocker!

The example of New Zealand proves the point of my idea as successful.

The subsequent failure of New Zealand ALSO proves the point of my idea as successful.

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it all day long.

I think that you are not right. The virus is in the open since late summer last year. It was spread worldwide quite fast but being relatively benign it was not detected soon enough to even try to implement some national quarantine.
New Zealand was never without cases. They just did not found them then so it was easy to blame new cases on reopening.

patnor1011

Deleted User wrote: »

I watched one of his videos. It doesn't a genius to realise that he's making conclusions without nearly enough evidence to back them up. A quick look through his videos shows he claims he's an engineer who specialises in nutrition whatever that is. He's the definition of a charlatan.

He is the same charlatan as you or me. Hundreds of people here give their opinion nearly daily, you included.
Since when expressing opinion make you a charlatan?

patnor1011

patnor1011 wrote: »

He is the same charlatan as you or me. Hundreds of people here give their opinion nearly daily, you included.
Since when expressing opinion make you a charlatan?

Do you genuinely believe Ivor Cummins is simply expressing his opinion?

speckle

I would be more interested in his I think it was his second last video where he is talking to one of the guys in charge in Croatia, like the equivalent of nephet. They dont agree on everthing but it is a civilised discussion. Especially about I think was ut 50 mins on when the croatian guy discusses what his prime minister says regarding Eu prime minsters.

patnor1011

Deleted User wrote: »

Do you genuinely believe Ivor Cummins is simply expressing his opinion?

I believe that you do the same here. You just happens to be on opposite side. Why would you go to personal insults like saying he is a charlatan or trying to say that he has no right to say something without proper education?
So I am not allowed to have opinion and express it without having complete education in whatever I am talking about?

What is even more ridiculous is that according to you he cant have opinion or experience in nutrition just because he happens to study engineering before. Seriously?

patnor1011

(Article by Michael Barone republished from NYPost.com)

Lockdowns.

Certainly, they were a novelty. As novelist Lionel Shriver writes, “We’ve never before responded to a contagion by closing down whole countries.” As I’ve noted, the 1957-58 Asian flu killed between 70,000 and 116,000 Americans, between 0.04 percent and 0.07 percent of the nation’s population. The 1968-70 Hong Kong flu killed about 100,000, 0.05 percent of the population.

The US coronavirus death toll of 186,000 is 0.055 percent of the current population. It will go higher, but it’s about the same magnitude as those two flus, and it has been less deadly to those under 65 than the flus were. Yet there were no statewide lockdowns; no massive school closings; no closings of office buildings and factories, restaurants and museums. No one considered shutting down Woodstock.

Why are attitudes so different today? Perhaps we have greater confidence in government’s effectiveness. If public policy can affect climate change, it can stamp out a virus.

Plus, we’re much more risk-averse. Children aren’t allowed to walk to school; jungle gyms have vanished from playgrounds; college students are shielded from microaggressions. We have a “safetyism mindset,” as Jonathan Haidt and Greg Lukianoff write in “The Coddling of the American Mind,” under which “many aspects of students’ lives needed to be carefully regulated by adults.”

So the news of the COVID-19 virus killing dozens and overloading hospitals in Bergamo, Italy, triggered a flight to safety and restriction. Many Americans stopped going to restaurants and shops even before the lockdowns were ordered in March and April. The exaggerated projections of some epidemiologists, with a professional interest in forecasting pandemics, triggered demands that governments act.

The legitimate fears that hospitals would be overwhelmed apparently explain the (in retrospect, deadly) orders of the governors of New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania and Michigan requiring elderly care facilities to admit COVID-infected patients. And the original purpose to “flatten the curve” segued into “stamp out the virus.”

But the apparent success of South Korea and island nations — Taiwan, Singapore, New Zealand — in doing so could never be replicated in the continental, globalized United States.

Governors imposing continued lockdowns claimed to be “following the science.” But only in one dimension: reducing the immediate number of COVID-19 cases. The lockdowns also prevented cancer screenings, heart-attack treatment and substance-abuse counseling, the absence of which resulted in a large but hard-to-estimate number of deaths. What Haidt and Lukianoff call “vindictive protectiveness” turned out to be not very protective.

Examples include shaming beachgoers though outdoor virus spread is minimal; extending school shutdowns though few children get or transmit the infection; closing down gardening aisles in superstores; and barring church services while blessing inevitably noisy and crowded demonstrations for politically favored causes.

The new thinking on lockdowns, as Greg Ip reported in the Wall Street Journal last week, is that “they’re overly blunt and costly.” That supports President Trump’s mid-April statement that “A prolonged lockdown combined with a forced economic depression would inflict an immense and wide-ranging toll on public health.”

For many, that economic damage has been of Great Depression proportions. Restaurants and small businesses have been closed forever, even before the last three months of “mostly peaceful” urban rioting. Losses have been concentrated on those with low income and little wealth, while lockdowns have added tens of billions to the net worth of Amazon’s Jeff Bezos and Facebook’s Mark Zuckerberg.

The anti-lockdown blogger (and former New York Times reporter) Alex Berenson makes a powerful case that lockdowns delayed, rather than prevented, infections.

There are old lessons here. Governments can sometimes channel but never entirely control nature. There is no way to entirely eliminate risk. Attempts to reduce one risk may increase others. Amid uncertainty, people make mistakes. Like, maybe, the lockdowns.

patnor1011

I believe this will be the motto of covid times:

Hardly anyone is sick here.

But we are all broke.

weldoninhio

Gradius wrote: »

I encourage everyone to look at that link you provided.

First you cherry pick "deaths" specifically so as to include some non-mickey mouse countries for credibility (yet still need to resort to Botswana!)

Secondly, when it comes to general statistics, most of those "dozens" of countries are a banana dictators wishlist, tiny islands, have shyt health infrastructure or all three.

Is there any specific public policy you'd like to lift from the bustling metropolis of Tongo? Maybe the capital of Bummalumbo is worth looking at?

Fooking "high profile example" all right

Someone doesn’t like being proven wrong.

weldoninhio

Gradius wrote: »

Oh no!! Well, unless we build a time machine, an anti-gravity chamber and a cold fusion plant...there's just no way around this physical impossibility.

A single, small land border. Jaysus, that's crazy stuff, insurmountable.

Single? There’s at least 300 crossing points.!

Graces7

average_runner wrote: »

62 cases in Wexford, 50 or more related to gaa clubs where players played while waiting on test result and then on the lash for a few days.

If we didnt have stupidity we wouldn't have a lock down

This needs putting up in lights in every town.

ShyMets

weldoninhio wrote: »

Single? There’s at least 300 crossing points.!

I was trying to make the same point to another poster. I think some people assume the boarder consists of the M1 and a few other crossings.

Graces7

weldoninhio wrote: »

Single? There’s at least 300 crossing points.!

lol... When I lived in Donegal near the border I would take a different route over every few days and never found them all! Narrow country lanes... Perfect smuggling territory. And no border markers. Once, the only reason I knew I had crossed was seeing a red pillar box.