Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VI - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

bucketybuck

Gradius wrote: »

No, the answer YOU were looking for was "no". A supremely childish way to avoid any reasoning.

You didn't get it.

You got schooled.

You got bollocked.

Hate that

Just to clarify, the answer to the question "Are New Zealand currently covid free" is not open to opinion or debate. It is a simple fact, "no" they are not.

Gradius

Ice Albatross wrote: »

I could get behind this this if we wanted and were willing to take the measures to make it successful. Time to have done it would have been March/April.



Way the Assigns do it is make people quarantine for two weeks on arrival (actually escort them under Gaur's to the hotel)



I don't think we can or should close the border with Northern Ireland. The idea of getting to zero Covid in the ROI is all well and good, but we have a two state system in the north of the country. Fair enough if you think we should be able to tell Irish citizens up North that they have to quarantine for two weeks when passing a km from their home across the border, but I don't think that is enforceable or desirable to do.This is the sticking point which I think destroys any plans for zero Covid (however well intentioned.



I at least respect it as at least its an actual plan, but think it's avoiding the reality of the border/political situation of the country we live. I guarantee you in New Zealand were facing the same they wouldn't have chosen their strategy and if they had it wouldn't have been even remotely successful.


Remember the start of the virus when we closed schools and NI didn't? Multiply that by 1000

It's that, or continue down the tubes.

New Zealand didn't even pull it off successfully, yet they are still leagues ahead of us because of the attempt. Check it out.

https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-current-situation/covid-19-current-cases

The obvious lesson is that, yes, that's the plan to follow. And yes, we can correct their mistakes.

Simple pimples.

pjohnson

bucketybuck wrote: »

I would say that the media behavior this past 5 months has been very alarming, there has been a very clear narrative there for quite a while now and that should worry people.

A free media bringing truth to power is important in a democracy, I don't mean sow dissent for the sake of it but surely there are some reporters out there prepared to ask a few hard questions.

Theres GemGem's and the Patriots. But she's not popular in this thread anymore however.

Gradius

bucketybuck wrote: »

Just to clarify, the answer to the question "Are New Zealand currently covid free" is not open to opinion or debate. It is a simple fact, "no" they are not.

LISTEN, MOFO, ARE APPLES ACTUALLY APPLES?!

YEAH, TOLD YOU SO!!

Its plain to see you set up the idea of New Zealand failing the plan as a bingo.

But that ignores absolutely every other facet of the situation here and there.

The fact remains, their plan is the one to follow in principle and to improve upon.

If you think otherwise, tell me who has better statistics than new zealand.

Rrrrrr2

Dionaibh wrote: »

King Canute indeed.

I actually predict that what will eventually happen is that people who don't want new normal will get together and find somewhere where they can live normally as 'relaxed' persons.

Its the inevitable end point - as we can see, there’s such as thing as zero Covid and there’s no way of achieving it. Covid will go the same as all other viruses

bucketybuck

Gradius wrote: »

LISTEN, MOFO, ARE APPLES ACTUALLY APPLES?!

YEAH, TOLD YOU SO!!

Its plain to see you set up the idea of New Zealand failing the plan as a bingo.

But that ignores absolutely every other facet of the situation here and there.

The fact remains, their plan is the one to follow in principle and to improve upon.

If you think otherwise, tell me who has better statistics than new zealand.

Sri Lanka, Iceland, Botswana all have less deaths than New Zealand. Literally dozens of countries have had less cases than New Zealand. Don't take my word for it, check the figures for yourself.

Look, I'm sorry that there is such a high profile example of your plan not working, one that lays bare just why your plan won't work, but it is what it is.

Ice Albatross

Gradius wrote: »

It's that, or continue down the tubes.

New Zealand didn't even pull it off successfully, yet they are still leagues ahead of us because of the attempt. Check it out.

https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-current-situation/covid-19-current-cases

The obvious lesson is that, yes, that's the plan to follow. And yes, we can correct their mistakes.

Simple pimples.

Still no mention of Northern Ireland. Have you any solution with regards to that problem that would be constitutional and proportional given the actual threat of Covid-19. If not, you don't have a leg to stand on calling for a zero Covid plan

Gradius

bucketybuck wrote: »

Sri Lanka, Iceland, Botswana all have less deaths than New Zealand. Literally dozens of countries have had less cases than New Zealand. Don't take my word for it, check the figures for yourself.

Look, I'm sorry that there is such a high profile example of your plan not working, one that lays bare just why your plan won't work, but it is what it is.

I encourage everyone to look at that link you provided.

First you cherry pick "deaths" specifically so as to include some non-mickey mouse countries for credibility (yet still need to resort to Botswana!)

Secondly, when it comes to general statistics, most of those "dozens" of countries are a banana dictators wishlist, tiny islands, have shyt health infrastructure or all three.

Is there any specific public policy you'd like to lift from the bustling metropolis of Tongo? Maybe the capital of Bummalumbo is worth looking at?

Fooking "high profile example" all right

Gradius

Ice Albatross wrote: »

Still no mention of Northern Ireland. Have you any solution with regards to that problem that would be constitutional and proportional given the actual threat of Covid-19. If not, you don't have a leg to stand on calling for a zero Covid plan

Yes. Close the border. That's how you do it. You make the decision and then implement the necessary to achieve that decision.

Everyone can shut the fook up about the moaning and groaning and "oh but that's really difficult" bs. Equally so for the "that's impossible" goons.

You want rid of the virus or you don't. If you're not willing to do difficult stuff then you have no right to complain about anything.

hynesie08

Gradius wrote: »

Yes. Close the border. That's how you do it. You make the decision and then implement the necessary to achieve that decision.

Everyone can shut the fook up about the moaning and groaning and "oh but that's really difficult" bs. Equally so for the "that's impossible" goons.

You want rid of the virus or you don't. If you're not willing to do difficult stuff then you have no right to complain about anything.

A good old fashioned reductio ad absurdum it's better than some of the attempts on here.....

Ice Albatross

Gradius wrote: »

Yes. Close the border. That's how you do it. You make the decision and then implement the necessary to achieve that decision.

Everyone can shut the fook up about the moaning and groaning and "oh but that's really difficult" bs. Equally so for the "that's impossible" goons.

You want rid of the virus or you don't. If you're not willing to do difficult stuff then you have no right to complain about anything.

How will you close the border. Send the Irish army out? Will a farmer who has land that crosses the border be allowed cross. Easy to say close the border when you haven't thought it through at all.



You could also apply your thinking to ending poverty and actually all the world's problems. You want rid of world poverty and homelessness, "quit your moaning, make the decision and just do it" ☑️

Edit:Spelling

average_runner

62 cases in Wexford, 50 or more related to gaa clubs where players played while waiting on test result and then on the lash for a few days.

If we didnt have stupidity we wouldn't have a lock down

Plumbthedepths

Gradius wrote: »

Yes. Close the border. That's how you do it. You make the decision and then implement the necessary to achieve that decision.

Everyone can shut the fook up about the moaning and groaning and "oh but that's really difficult" bs. Equally so for the "that's impossible" goons.

You want rid of the virus or you don't. If you're not willing to do difficult stuff then you have no right to complain about anything.

The BA with all the resources of the UK couldn't do it during the troubles, how do you purpose we close a non existent border now?

Gradius

hynesie08 wrote: »

A good old fashioned reductio ad absurdum it's better than some of the attempts on here.....

If there were something happening besides lockdowns and calls for "back to normal" my suggestion would be absurd.

However those two pea-brain ideas, representing the depth and breadth of ideas, ARE the only two options presented. They are moronic.

Therefore I say it again, if doing something proactive and effective is too much effort, then you can shut up and enjoy living like this and look forward to worse.

hynesie08

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

The BA with all the resources of the UK couldn't do it during the troubles, how do you purpose we close a non existent border now?

Police tape and a Google maps black spot.....

average_runner

Gradius wrote: »

If there were something happening besides lockdowns and calls for "back to normal" my suggestion would be absurd.

However those two pea-brain ideas, representing the depth and breadth of ideas, ARE the only two options presented. They are moronic.

Therefore I say it again, if doing something proactive and effective is too much effort, then you can shut up and enjoy living like this and look forward to worse.

Too many stupid people in this country sadly

Gradius

Ice Albatross wrote: »

How will you close the border. Send the Irish army out? Will a farmer who has land that crosses the border be allowed cross. Easy to say close the border when you haven't thought it through at all.



You could also apply your thinking to ending poverty and actually all the world's problems. You want rid of world poverty and homelessness, "quit your moaning, make the decision and just do it" ☑️

Edit:Spelling

Send the army. Make bilateral agreements of enforcement. Sign bits of paper. Suspend that agreement. Build infrastructure.

Whatever.

The focus shouldn't be on how difficult a solution is, but on whether it solves the problem. Especially when it's the only solution on the cards.

"My house is on fire, but it's so much trouble to do anything about it. Oh woe is me. Guess I'll die instead of trying."

Gradius

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

The BA with all the resources of the UK couldn't do it during the troubles, how do you purpose we close a non existent border now?

By agreement. How about that?

Plumbthedepths

Gradius wrote: »

By agreement. How about that?

Not going to happen, soz. Any other bright ideas?

Gradius

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Not going to happen, soz. Any other bright ideas?

"I'm on fire. No, I don't like the effort of jumping in a pond, thanks. Any other bright ideas?"

What is it, exactly, that gives you this illusion of choice here?

Andrewf20

Libski wrote: »

Do you realise that this is more contagious and deadly?

I do, but im just highlighting that every year hundreds of thousands are killed worldwide by the flu and theres not a notion of masks, social distancing or locking down to reduce its spread.

Sweden lifted their lockdown in May and deaths have been low since the summer so there is an argument as to how deadly the virus is at this stage. Ireland is similar with a later opening up. Social distancing, masks & shield high risk people as much as possible - that I can understand but lockdowns im not convinced are necessary the way things are currently and are probably causing more harm than good.

Who also says this below. I wouldnt consider Ireland to be an extreme case.

bucketybuck

Gradius wrote: »

Fooking "high profile example" all right

New Zealand is an island nation of just under 5 million people, there are very few places on earth more like Ireland than New Zealand is.

How is that not a high profile example?

I have to check, do you know about New Zealand?

Plumbthedepths

Gradius wrote: »

"I'm on fire. No, I don't like the effort of jumping in a pond, thanks. Any other bright ideas?"

What is it, exactly, that gives you this illusion of choice here?

Illusion of choice? I know the non existent border can't be closed for a myriad of reasons. I also know people advocating for Zero Covid would be better off howling at the Moon.

Gradius

bucketybuck wrote: »

New Zealand is an island nation of just under 5 million people, there are very few places on earth more like Ireland than New Zealand is.

How is that not a high profile example?

I have to check, do you know about New Zealand?

That's MY point.

You're the one dragging the superpowers of Burundi into it.

So now that that's settled, how DO Ireland and New Zealand compare so far??

Gradius

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Illusion of choice? I know the non existent border can't be closed for a myriad of reasons. I also know people advocating for Zero Covid would be better off howling at the Moon.

So to be clear, your choice is *this* current fookstorm of frustration and waste.

Right?

Penfailed

Gradius wrote: »

Yes. Close the border. That's how you do it. You make the decision and then implement the necessary to achieve that decision.

How? Tens of thousands work on one side but live on the other. Doctors and nurses live in the north but work in Letterkenny hospital. Doctors and nurses live in Donegal but work in Altnagelvin Hospital in Derry. Many children go to school in a different jurisdiction from that in which they live. Much of Derry's feeder/commuter villages are in Donegal.

Plumbthedepths

Gradius wrote: »

So to be clear, your choice is *this* current fookstorm of frustration and waste.

Right?

Personally I would place 'zero Covid advocates and open everything advocates in the same category. Utter loons, best ignored as neither have the capacity to process the damage they want to inflict.

hynesie08

Gradius wrote: »

"I'm on fire. No, I don't like the effort of jumping in a pond, thanks. Any other bright ideas?"

What is it, exactly, that gives you this illusion of choice here?

What if jumping into a pond is your only option and you can't swim?

Gradius

Penfailed wrote: »

How? Tens of thousands work on one side but live on the other. Doctors and nurses live in the north but work in Letterkenny hospital. Doctors and nurses live in Donegal but work in Altnagelvin Hospital in Derry. Many children go to school in a different jurisdiction from that in which they live. Much of Derry's feeder/commuter villages are in Donegal.

Nothing that can't be undone/fixed temporarily.

Swap the bloody hospital staff. Swap the children in schools.

It's not quantum mechanics. What it really boils down to is "that's a lot of effort and trouble".

Well fine, enjoy the current situation this time next year then.

Gradius

hynesie08 wrote: »

What if jumping into a pond is your only option and you can't swim?

Yeah but THE POINT is that the option of the pond IS there yet turning it down when there is no other choice.

Well then burn, baby, burn.