Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VI - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

FintanMcluskey

charlie14 wrote: »

No deflection whatsoever Fintain. Just proof that one swallow does not make a Summer.

I find this repeated attempt by you increasingly disingenuous and time wasting to portray the Swedish strategy you have backed from the start as being just down to a commonality on deaths of those aged 65 and over.
It`s is not, and the figures prove it.

This is hard to follow Charlie.

Your now claiming I’m wasting time talking about the Covid death rate, something you cling to in horror when you repeatedly claim Sweden has been a failure.

It’s an abdication of facts, replaced by a self deception that suppression of all citizens is the correct ethos to deal with Covid

DeanAustin

mohawk wrote: »

Well nox we didn’t live in a dystopia where we are not allowed to discuss alternative strategies. Is a herd immunity approach the right one? Well that depends on what research and data says aka ecidence. We know there is a high cost to lockdowns so people are entitled to investigate and discuss alternatives. If the evidence against herd immunity is so strong what’s wrong with a discussion??

Read an article on BBC (I think( this morning that said herd immunity had never been achieved before for any virus and that we shouldn't even contemplate "living with the virus". Person who wrote it was extremely well qualified too.

I've been strongly on the "learn to live with it" side of the argument but I'm no expert. That said, the article wasn't too in depth so I still don't understand why managing the virus is such a terrible option.

FintanMcluskey

charlie14 wrote: »

If you mean Covid-19, I doubt if at this stage there are many in the medical profession in the Southern Hemisphere that can not recognise the difference.

Yet again you have crashed your car crash argument into the ditch.

I didn’t say they couldn’t identify the difference, I asked are vulnerable people now vulnerable to something else.

Plumbthedepths

DeanAustin wrote: »

Read an article on BBC (I think( this morning that said herd immunity had never been achieved before for any virus and that we shouldn't even contemplate "living with the virus". Person who wrote it was extremely well qualified too.

I've been strongly on the "learn to live with it" side of the argument but I'm no expert. That said, the article wasn't too in depth so I still don't understand why managing the virus is such a terrible option.

I listened to two Irish experts back in March (K de G being one of them) who rubbished the idea of masks. Experts can be and are known to have got things wrong.

charlie14

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

This is hard to follow Charlie.

Your now claiming I’m wasting time talking about the Covid death rate, something you cling to in horror when you repeatedly claim Sweden has been a failure.

It’s an abdication of facts, replaced by a self deception that suppression of all citizens is the correct ethos to deal with Covid

Your attempt to make excuses for the high number of deaths in Sweden being due to deaths in the 65 and over age group just does not hold water regardless of how often you attempt to push it.
Get over it Fintan and move on.

walus

Jorge Limited Maze wrote: »

Herd immunity is a hoax without a vaccine it shouldn't even be allowed to discuss it.

If herd immunity was a hoax you would have no chance to exist today and write this utter rubbish. If that alone is not a proof to you, I don't know what is. That is if you think that there is no merit in what scientists from Harvard, Stanford and Oxford believe is true. Where this notion that our natural way of adapting to new pathogen is no good anymore for cv-19 is coming from is beyond my understanding. Unless of course you work for pharma or the banks, that is, of course. Then it all makes sense.

Whatsisname

How did humans ever live past the black death, the spanish flu, etc if herd immunity is not a thing? that doesn't make any sense.

charlie14

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Yet again you have crashed your car crash argument into the ditch.

I didn’t say they couldn’t identify the difference, I asked are vulnerable people now vulnerable to something else.

I had to Fintan. You were coming zig zaging up the road and I hadn`t the faintest idea where you were going.


Still haven`t.

ShyMets

walus wrote: »

If herd immunity was a hoax you would have no chance to exist today and write this utter rubbish. If that alone is not a proof to you, I don't know what is. That is if you think that there is no merit in what scientists from Harvard, Stanford and Oxford believe is true. Where this notion that our natural way of adapting to new pathogen is no good anymore for cv-19 is coming from is beyond my understanding. Unless of course you work for pharma or the banks, that is, of course. Then it all makes sense.

You should now by now that Nox knows best

DeanAustin

Whatsisname wrote: »

How did humans ever live past the black death, the spanish flu, etc if herd immunity is not a thing? that doesn't make any sense.

I assume that those viruses burned themselves out or we learned to treat them rather than it being herd immunity that wiped them out. That said, I'm not an expert...just listening to those that are.

Jim_Hodge

Graces7 wrote: »

Wearing masks in flu season is a good idea that would save lives.

Nit a lot to ask one would think. Just the right thing to do for folk ,

No not an outrageous idea but, with all due respect, it's easier said than done for many. You don't need to wear a mask on a regular basis while working or using public transport.

walus

ShyMets wrote: »

You should now by now that Nox knows best

Yeah, I know that, just messing .

Penfailed

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

I will, because it’s completely relevant that they have a much older population than Ireland, especially so when discussing a disease that effects the elderly.

I still don’t understand your stance in all of this?

Is it just disagreeing for the sake of it?

Numerous times now I've given my stance. Didn't like lockdown but appreciated the need for one. Similarly, now, not a massive fan of restrictions but appreciate the need for them. I can't really be any clearer than that. It's not difficult to understand, yet...you can't seem to be able to grasp it. It's frustrating.

Penfailed

PTH2009 wrote: »

Nphet meeting tomorrow which will no doubt inflict more restrictions and this time MM and Leo will go with it

You are basing this on what? Have you an inside line?

mohawk

DeanAustin wrote: »

Read an article on BBC (I think( this morning that said herd immunity had never been achieved before for any virus and that we shouldn't even contemplate "living with the virus". Person who wrote it was extremely well qualified too.

I've been strongly on the "learn to live with it" side of the argument but I'm no expert. That said, the article wasn't too in depth so I still don't understand why managing the virus is such a terrible option.

It’s interesting to read things from people with different opinions on a subject. Like you I think that one day we will have to live with it.
If we don’t live with the virus then our only strategy is to eliminate it. We have eradicated one disease and hopefully we get there with polio too.

FintanMcluskey

Penfailed wrote: »

Numerous times now I've given my stance. Didn't like lockdown but appreciated the need for one. Similarly, now, not a massive fan of restrictions but appreciate the need for them. I can't really be any clearer than that. It's not difficult to understand, yet...you can't seem to be able to grasp it. It's frustrating.

Your in favour of restrictions, won’t take a vaccine if it comes available and expect to be in packed stadiums at concerts next Summer. All the while you consistently argue without a point

I just struggle to apply common sense to your stance is all, something will have to give.

It’s difficult for me to understand, but I’m not in your league of intellectual debate

FintanMcluskey

charlie14 wrote: »

Your attempt to make excuses for the high number of deaths in Sweden being due to deaths in the 65 and over age group just does not hold water regardless of how often you attempt to push it.
Get over it Fintan and move on.

Charlie a citizen over 65 was just as safe from Covid in Sweden as a citizen over 65 in Ireland.

Please loose the moral pontificating about making excuses for deaths, I’m not, I’m just stating the stats

DeanAustin

mohawk wrote: »

It’s interesting to read things from people with different opinions on a subject. Like you I think that one day we will have to live with it.
If we don’t live with the virus then our only strategy is to eliminate it. We have eradicated one disease and hopefully we get there with polio too.

Yeah I agree. I have strong views on this situation but I know I'm not an expert so I'm not naive enough to think that my way is right or that there is a solution for the decision makers. Personally, I think governments just have bad options and worse options and I'm always curious to understand what experts think. They're not infallible either but they're more likely to be right than me.

RoryMac

PTH2009 wrote: »

Nphet meeting tomorrow which will no doubt inflict more restrictions and this time MM and Leo will go with it

Can't see them introducing further nation wide restrictions, that ship has sailed. Possible localised restrictions in border areas but even then they are already on a similar level to areas north of the border.

hynesie08

hynesie08 wrote: »

Such as????

Level 4.

walus wrote: »

If herd immunity was a hoax you would have no chance to exist today and write this utter rubbish. If that alone is not a proof to you, I don't know what is. That is if you think that there is no merit in what scientists from Harvard, Stanford and Oxford believe is true. Where this notion that our natural way of adapting to new pathogen is no good anymore for cv-19 is coming from is beyond my understanding. Unless of course you work for pharma or the banks, that is, of course. Then it all makes sense.

The WHO among other would disagree with you, but sure what would they know about immunity?

tobefrank321

Jorge Limited Maze wrote: »

Level 4.



The WHO among other would disagree with you, but sure what would they know about immunity?

Not as much as a large body of respected experts from universities like Oxford it would appear. Two years ago the WHO approved Chinese traditional medicine as a valid medical field even though most experts were unable to find any medicinal value when they explored such medicines. Meanwhile the Chinese were given the thumbs up to hunt endangered species for their "medicinal" value. Kind of gives you an idea what the WHO are like.

ShyMets

I see over on the main Covid thread the GAA are the latest whipping boys

polesheep

Jorge Limited Maze wrote: »

Level 4.



The WHO among other would disagree with you, but sure what would they know about immunity?

The WHO disagrees with herd immunity as a strategy. Not as a fact.

CalamariFritti

charlie14 wrote: »

Herd immunity to have an meaningful effect on controlling the spread of a virus has to be in the 60-80% range.

Nowhere have test results shown that level to be anywhere close. Even in countries that have been ravaged by this virus.
Manaus capital of the Brazilian state of Amazonas researchers published a paper that claimed based on test result the city had acquired 66% immunity.
Three days later restrictions were re-imposed due to the sudden rise in new cases.


Mother nature may in aeons to come develop immunity to this virus, but the plain and simple facts are there have been other virus around for that long that she did not develop herd immunity for that would still be rampant without vaccines.
I do not see any evidence, let alone credible evidence, that it is any different for this one

Question. This virus - if you let it run loose and it went exponential and affected eventually everyone. Do you think that it then will just run riot in the population all the time and simply reinfect and reinfect and reinfect forever and ever? Or would you say there may be - once a certain saturation is reached - some sort of slowdown?
I would be interested in what you think. Regardless of the debate. Regardless of what anyone might say one way or the other. Just your own gut feeling.

funnydoggy

From the other thread:

In the last week or two, the virus has been 'circling the drain' for me. Started with contacts of contacts of contacts, then to contacts of contacts but not yet to contacts.

I think most of us will end up getting it at one point, no matter what we do. We can only control our actions, not the actions of others. That's where the government strategy lies and it's not really working.

Plumbthedepths

ShyMets wrote: »

I see over on the main Covid thread the GAA are the latest whipping boys

Makes a change from young people I guess.

tobefrank321

funnydoggy wrote: »

From the other thread:

In the last week or two, the virus has been 'circling the drain' for me. Started with contacts of contacts of contacts, then to contacts of contacts but not yet to contacts.

I think most of us will end up getting it at one point, no matter what we do. We can only control our actions, not the actions of others. That's where the government strategy lies and it's not really working.

Yes that's true. Even in a best cases scenario of a successful vaccine being approved by say January 1st, it will be at least the Summer before it starts to reach a significant amount of the population and very likely the end of 2021 before a vaccine has reached enough people for this to burn out. By which stage the majority will likely be infected already.

Realistically a vaccine will only benefit those most at risk of dying.

PTH2009

watching the Finland vs Ireland match and seeing supporters allowed in the stadium. All spread out

Meanwhile here were not allowing any spectators into sports grounds and there's no plans too in the next 6-9 months. The government says its the case of people congregating outside the stadium that will be the problem

CalamariFritti

This debate in 15 seconds...

Jane: Sweden is so relaxed compared to us. No lockdown ever, no masks ever. No permanent panic stations. I wish we were like Sweden.
Billy: Are you mad? Sweden are terrible. They have many more deaths than us here in Ireland. Granny killers!
Jane: No they don't. Statistically more or less the same. Very few if any restrictions though.
Billy: You're wrong! Twice our population. Three times our deaths. Easy to see!
Jane: This is where you are wrong. Almost all deaths happen in the over 65s. Sweden has three times our over 65s. Bingo.
Billy: You're a LIAR. What about Norway?!?

Jane:

Penfailed

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Your You're in favour of restrictions, won’t take a vaccine if it comes available and expect to be in packed stadiums at concerts next Summer. All the while you consistently argue without a point

I just struggle to apply common sense to your stance is all, something will have to give.

It’s difficult for me to understand, but I’m not in your league of intellectual debate

Really? How have you failed to misinterpret/misrepresent what I've said...again?! Once more for the hard of thinking - I'm not in favour of restrictions but understand the need for them, I won't take an untried/untested vaccine (you got that one right! Yay)...and I didn't say, anywhere, that I expect to be in packed stadiums at concerts next year. I challenge you to find the post where I said I did.