Schools closed until February? (part 3)

tom1ie

Boggles wrote: »

It is. I mean, it is.

So you are in favor of shuttering the schools?

That would be a poor idea IMO.

I am in favour of a decision being made.
A) close schools, parents don’t go to work COVID cases drop, economy under severe pressure.
keep schools open, parents work, COVID cases go up health service under severe pressure.

A decision needs to be made.

wirelessdude01

tom1ie wrote: »

So what about the parents that will be forced to take AL to allow schools to close early?

Where did I say to close the schools? I want them open those days as that is the date I'm aiming for to get back.

You keep going on about education, point I'm making is that no teaching of any substance will be occurring on those days anyway.

Stateofyou

meeeeh wrote: »

If you want to protect your vulnerable parent then take your kids out on 11th or is there some new advice that we should all follow. Should we only self isolate 7 days now? Or are you using safety as an excuse for whatever other reason.

I will do that regardless of the outcome of this announcement. Thank you for your concern.

I have already stated my opinions on why I think it's a good idea, perhaps go back and read them.

Edit to add, as for the isolation question, closing earlier will probably prevent many new infections, and / or allow more time for symptoms to present and therefore a better ability to self isolate and contact trace before Christmas.

meeeeh

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

When I worked in the private sector before retraining, December wasn't a busy month workwise for us anyway. Lots of lunches and networking to get things in the pipeline for the following year.

Actually I'm paying people just before we are off and for me it's just about the busiest part of the year. Considering how much we have on order it will be busy month for everyone else too. Anyway kids see their grandmother every day, she is part of our bubble and has dinner with us so finishing on 18th would make little difference to me, kids would probably stay with her or minder for extra days. What I don't accept is that those two days don't matter. Kids will still get couple of relaxed days, if schools close earlier those two days will just be done earlier. I have no objection if they want to start back earlier but don't bs me with saying that two days don't matter or that it will be safer.

joe40

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Question for you. What teaching of any educational value do you think would occur on the 21st and 22nd?

Thats a poor argument. If the schools need to close because of no teaching 21st and 22nd, then they need to open two days earlier after christmas.

The idea of closing schools early to give teachers a break is ridiculous. Are other frontline getting extra holidays. (I consider teaching frontline workers now)
This is not teacher bashing,I am a teacher, i just don't want our profession ridiculed.
If parents have the ability to keep children off for those days then so be it for them but to foist this on working parents with young kids would be unfair.

tom1ie

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Where did I say to close the schools? I want them open those days as that is the date I'm aiming for to get back.

You keep going on about education, point I'm making is that no teaching of any substance will be occurring on those days anyway.

Did I say you said close the schools?

I said a decision needs to be made. Is the virus spreading in the schools?
If yes close them, meaning parents will have to stay off work.
If no then what are the teachers union looking for time off for?

Maybe less of the calling me out of touch and more paying attention to people’s posts would serve you well?

Stateofyou

tom1ie wrote: »

Did I say you said close the schools?

I said a decision needs to be made. Is the virus spreading in the schools?
If yes close them, meaning parents will have to stay off work.
If no then what are the teachers union looking for time off for?

Maybe less of the calling me out of touch and more paying attention to people’s posts would serve you well?

Is that a serious question?

tom1ie

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Where did I say to close the schools? I want them open those days as that is the date I'm aiming for to get back.

You keep going on about education, point I'm making is that no teaching of any substance will be occurring on those days anyway.

Why? Isn’t that what teachers are paid to do?

Your also not thinking of the implications on parents here are you.

Deeec

I think it would be a good idea to close schools a little earlier ( Im a parent - not a teacher ). I think schools could look at a blended approach as a solution which kicks in from the 11th December.

- For parents who do not want their children to attend school in the run up to Christmas - on the 11th Dec schoolwork could be sent home with these children to be completed up to the 18th Dec. These children are then limiting their movements for the 2 weeks run up to christmas which gives families a chance to have christmas dinner with their grandparents.

- Schools are still open up to the 18th for December for children who still need to attend. These children work on the same work which was given to children who are staying at home. This would mean parents who need to go to work can still go. (This is a busy time of year for alot of workplaces)

- Schools close on the 18th December. I think opening on the 21st and 22nd December is a waste of time. I know my kids do nothing really on these days and alot of parents dont even bother send their kids in on half days.

um7y1h83ge06nx

Stateofyou wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with that. Children enjoy the wind down days. The point, and the most important consideration here in closing earlier is in prioritising the health of children and their families to hopefully have a safe and happy Christmas. These aren't normal times, and with the reality of vaccines in the near future it won't be for much longer. It's hardly going to affect their education in the long run, but their families becoming sick or god forbid in hospital is what is far worse in the long run.

I agree but it does negate the argument that the kids wouldn't miss out on anything on the 21st and 22nd as they are wind-down days, the wind-down days will just move forward.

landofthetree

Deeec wrote: »

I think it would be a good idea to close schools a little earlier ( Im a parent - not a teacher ). I think schools could look at a blended approach as a solution which kicks in from the 11th December.

- For parents who do not want their children to attend school in the run up to Christmas - on the 11th Dec schoolwork could be sent home with these children to be completed up to the 18th Dec. These children are then limiting their movements for the 2 weeks run up to christmas which gives families a chance to have christmas dinner with their grandparents.

- Schools are still open up to the 18th for December for children who still need to attend. These children work on the same work which was given to children who are staying at home. This would mean parents who need to go to work can still go. (This is a busy time of year for alot of workplaces)

- Schools close on the 18th December. I think opening on the 21st and 22nd December is a waste of time. I know my kids do nothing really on these days and alot of parents dont even bother send their kids in on half days.

They should make the time up at Easter and in the summer so kids dont miss out.

tom1ie

Stateofyou wrote: »

Is that a serious question?

I know the answer as much as you, but the point is how do we expect to get numbers down if we are allowing viral spread anyway.

Close the schools or the teachers will just have put up with it and get on with it.

It’s not a nice position to be in I agree.

wirelessdude01

joe40 wrote: »

Thats a poor argument. If the schools need to close because of no teaching 21st and 22nd, then they need to open two days earlier after christmas.

The idea of closing schools early to give teachers a break is ridiculous. Are other frontline getting extra holidays. (I consider teaching frontline workers now)
This is not teacher bashing,I am a teacher, i just don't want our profession ridiculed.
If parents have the ability to keep children off for those days then so be it for them but to foist this on working parents with young kids would be unfair.

A poor argument for what? I don't want them closed as it's my return to work date.

My issue is with those who say that children's education will be impacted if schools were to be closed those days.

Being realistic those days are essentially crowd control of those children who will be sent to school. Also being realistic it's only one day as we traditionally only have about 50% attendance on half days.

wirelessdude01

meeeeh wrote: »

Actually I'm paying people just before we are off and for me it's just about the busiest part of the year. Considering how much we have on order it will be busy month for everyone else too. Anyway kids see their grandmother every day, she is part of our bubble and has dinner with us so finishing on 18th would make little difference to me, kids would probably stay with her or minder for extra days. What I don't accept is that those two days don't matter. Kids will still get couple of relaxed days, if schools close earlier those two days will just be done earlier. I have no objection if they want to start back earlier but don't bs me with saying that two days don't matter or that it will be safer.

Educationally those days do not matter.

As for safety, once again you must be mixing me up with someone else as I didn't once mention it.

Stateofyou

Armani Gray Redcoat wrote: »

I agree but it does negate the argument that the kids wouldn't miss out on anything on the 21st and 22nd as they are wind-down days, the wind-down days will just move forward.

Yes they may just move forward, I see your point. However, for me on balance it's a better trade-off. If closing earlier allows families to be safer at Christmas and affords our children a much needed break from the constant hyper covid vigilance and cold classrooms (it will soon be much colder than it is now) well in my opinion I think it's worth it.

meeeeh

Stateofyou wrote: »

I will do that regardless of the outcome of this announcement. Thank you for your concern.

I have already stated my opinions on why I think it's a good idea, perhaps go back and read them.

Edit to add, as for the isolation question, closing earlier will probably prevent many new infections, and / or allow more time for symptoms to present and therefore a better ability to self isolate and contact trace before Christmas.

And for older kids to socialise outside school, possibly get drunk once or twice. It will be great for public health.

khalessi

tom1ie wrote: »

Did I say you said close the schools?

I said a decision needs to be made. Is the virus spreading in the schools?
If yes close them, meaning parents will have to stay off work.
If no then what are the teachers union looking for time off for?

Maybe less of the calling me out of touch and more paying attention to people’s posts would serve you well?

The numbers of cases in schools are somewhat unknown due to the fact that close contacts are often not tested. Cases in children are blamed on community transmission rather than schools. Article in Irish Times this week of one parent story regarding his child not being considered a close contact and then developing Covid which he says was a school infection. NPHET Public Health Consultant Dr. Abigail Collins already said that they are being very conservative in who is chosen as a close contacts in schools.

Another public healtch consultant wrote on twitter this was because if a child has to isolate who will mind them, if the parents are working.

A teacher had a positive case and insisited class tested adn 7 other children who were asymptomatic were found to be positive.

So who knows what the real numbers are.

Boggles

tom1ie wrote: »

I am in favour of a decision being made.
A) close schools, parents don’t go to work COVID cases drop, economy under severe pressure.
keep schools open, parents work, COVID cases go up health service under severe pressure.

A decision needs to be made.

It looks like you are in favor of A and B answers, reality is far more nuanced I am afraid.

But in practice the more families that pull there kids from school the better, less chance for the virus to spread over the holidays which it will like wildfire (not my opinion), less damage to the economy, health system, peoples health and more chance of getting the kids back to school next year with lower instances of the virus.

It's an all round solid idea, if people stopped moaning about feckless teachers for a nano second they would realize it.

meeeeh

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Educationally those days do not matter.

And those two days that don't matter educationally will just happen a few days earlier. And it's not two days, it's two days on top of three months, in some cases on top of extra weeks off for self isolating reasons. We don't have the luxury of taking days off because it would be nice.

Stateofyou

meeeeh wrote: »

And for older kids to socialise outside school, possibly get drunk once or twice. It will be great for public health.

I see your point. My thoughts are that 1. It's the parent's responsibility as ever to ensure this isn't happening especially in a global pandemic and 2. If they are going to drink and parent's aren't going to responsibly prevent this, it will happen over the break regardless.

Boggles

meeeeh wrote: »

And for older kids to socialise outside school, possibly get drunk once or twice. It will be great for public health.

Lolz. I know for a fact you are blaming teachers for the above scenario in your head.

Brilliant. :pac:

Lillyfae

To be fair it makes way more sense to finish on Friday 18th and come back on the 4th of January, but whoever made the Department of Education calendar is to blame for that. Don't schools themselves have autonomy over where the holidays fall though?

meeeeh

Boggles wrote: »

Lolz. I know for a fact you are blaming teachers for the above scenario in your head.

Brilliant. :pac:

I know for a fact now that you are deluded. It all makes sense now.

wirelessdude01

Let's be honest. Schools are needed to be open those two days so that parents can go to work. Let's not pretend it's anything to do with education.

wirelessdude01

Lillyfae wrote: »

To be fair it makes way more sense to finish on Friday 18th and come back on the 4th of January, but whoever made the Department of Education calendar is to blame for that. Don't schools themselves have autonomy over where the holidays fall though?

Nope. 22nd is set by the department.

Here ya go.

https://www.education.ie/en/schools-colleges/information/school-holidays/

joe40

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Educationally those days do not matter.

As for safety, once again you must be mixing me up with someone else as I didn't once mention it.

I totally disagree. I work in secondary (different jurisdiction) but my kids go to secondary school in Donegal. There may be some easing off for junior classes but exam classes will continue to work.

I personally find it much easier to work with a class than give them a free class or whatever. Kids nowadays aren't as impressed with a movie as we were...

(Anyway i'm on a free period so should be marking a set of tests, bloody internet)

Boggles

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Let's be honest. Schools are needed to be open those two days so that parents can go to work. Let's not pretend it's anything to do with education.

It's the only reason schools are open in their current guise as is.

And why wouldn't they be.

It's doorbells and funerals causing the spread.

Not schools.

South Oz entering into a circuit break lockdown.

All schools and universities closed except for children of essential workers

Children must be different biologically on that side of the planet.

Lillyfae

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Let's be honest. Schools are needed to be open those two days so that parents can go to work. Let's not pretend it's anything to do with education.

So what? The truck drivers, supermarket workers, Gardaí, ICU nurses shouldn't have had children if they weren't willing to homeschool them during a pandemic so teachers could have "a break" is it? Or maybe they should have become teachers?

Stateofyou

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Let's be honest. Schools are needed to be open those two days so that parents can go to work. Let's not pretend it's anything to do with education.

That's exactly right. In my opinion that is the underlying truth when it comes to the shambolic testing and tracing protocol in the schools.

If Norma Foley ( and by extension our government, DES ) really valued education in this country then why has the sector been so severely underfunded for years. Why do we have one of the largest class sizes in all of Europe, one of the lowest spending/budgets for education, crumbling buildings not really fit for purpose and parents being left to pay for literally everything the school needs to facilitate education. "Free education" my eye. Maybe this conversation is for another day.

um7y1h83ge06nx

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Let's be honest. Schools are needed to be open those two days so that parents can go to work. Let's not pretend it's anything to do with education.

That is probably true up to a point. But the same could be said of any other school day i.e. that having the school open allow parents go to work.

However teachers should be promoting the importance of school for education, letting schools be labelled as glorified creches is an insult to teachers and the education system.

Although I would say most decent parents see schools as places of education first and foremost.