Schools closed until February? (part 3)

meeeeh

Blondini wrote: »

Jaysus that announcement from the union about something that probably won't even happen, has definitely rattled the numpty cage and woken up some sleeping bitterness.

I agree. One could deduct that they are by far the most incompetent unions around. They are actively going against the interest of their members.

eviltwin

Boggles wrote: »

Good for you can't be easy.

But again, ye are the most tested protected workforce out there in terms of Covid.

People who work in schools are at the absolute bottom of the pile.

I find it surprising given the job you do you would find their worries or stress levels "laughable".

In my personal experience they have got their head down and have done amazing work.

But I am not ungrateful or naive to think that level of commitment doesn't come at somewhat of a personal cost to a least a portion of people working in schools, not everyone working in a school is a fit and health 20 something with no underlying conditions or family members who are at risk.

I haven't been tested at all. No one has in my service. All the while though we are working with people who don't follow basic guidelines and can't understand the concept of hygiene.

I completely get the fear of teachers as I have the same fear and I understand very well the mental and emotional toll that takes. I just don't think the public, the vast majority who are in the same situation or worse will feel sympathetic. Good luck with it though!

Icyseanfitz

Blondini wrote: »

Jaysus that announcement from the union about something that probably won't even happen, has definitely rattled the numpty cage and woken up some sleeping bitterness.

Its crazy how the thought of a day and half off for a safer Christmas is untenable for some people, pure Irish begrudgery.

It really feels like a lot of the public couldn't give two ****s if teachers and school staff and their families started to drop dead from covid.

um7y1h83ge06nx

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

Its crazy how the thought of a day and half off for a safer Christmas is untenable for some people, pure Irish begrudgery.

It really feels like a lot of the public couldn't give two ****s if teachers and school staff and their families started to drop dead from covid.

Bit of a leap there to be fair.

Marty Bird

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

Its crazy how the thought of a day and half off for a safer Christmas is untenable for some people, pure Irish begrudgery.

It really feels like a lot of the public couldn't give two ****s if teachers and school staff and their families started to drop dead from covid.

Exaggerate much ?

HerrKuehn

khalessi wrote: »

Actually Public Health consultants have implied they consider us creches, one of the reasons they are conservative in identifying close contacts in schools is because if the child has to stay at home, who will mind the child if the parents are working.

One of the kids in my child's class tested positive. The parents are health care workers. The entire class is off for a couple of weeks and everyone has been tested. I am not sure if this is being handled differently to before the midterm break or not.

Stateofyou

Lillyfae wrote: »

This is though:

Yes, there is more than one aspect to be considered as TUI has pointed out. And mentioned within that fatigue, are our own children.

One of my kids has needed a mental health week at home since the schools reopened. For some the impact of the stress of trying to keep themselves and their family safe while having no other option other than in school full time, when covid cases in the classroom hit or finding out a relative has tested positive has been tough on them, too.

One of my nieces (older primary level) feels worried every day because almost none of her classmates are wearing masks and in the cramped classroom she doesn't feel safe. She knows about social distancing and sees everyone wearing masks indoors everywhere else, but not in the school. A few of my friends would have kids who feel similar. In talking to other parents and listening to radio, reading social media etc- I know my personal anecdotes of children feeling the stress and strain are not the only ones.

Those vaccines can't come soon enough.

Lillyfae

Stateofyou wrote: »

Yes, there is more than one aspect to be considered as TUI has pointed out. And mentioned within that fatigue, are our own children.

One of my kids has needed a mental health week at home since the schools reopened. For some the impact of the stress of trying to keep themselves and their family safe while having no other option other than in school full time, when covid cases in the classroom hit or finding out a relative has tested positive has been tough on them, too.

One of my nieces (older primary level) feels worried every day because almost none of her classmates are wearing masks and in the cramped classroom she doesn't feel safe. She knows about social distancing and sees everyone wearing masks indoors everywhere else, but not in the school. A few of my friends would have kids who feel similar. In talking to other parents and listening to radio, reading social media etc- I know my personal anecdotes of children feeling the stress and strain are not the only ones.

Those vaccines can't come soon enough.

We absolutely all feel like that. Everyone is going through that.

Icyseanfitz

Marty Bird wrote: »

Exaggerate much ?

Is it? Anytime members of school staff have pointed out issues with safety in schools we get bombarded by people telling us to shut up and get on with it on top of the usual teachers are lazy and do nothing drivel.

Stateofyou

Lillyfae wrote: »

We absolutely all feel like that. Everyone is going through that.

Yes, I know. I made my comments because it seemed like you and some others were trying to make out that it's all about the teachers needing a break. That isn't true. It's about safety for families before Christmas as was pointed out from the article. And it's about the fatigue for all in the school system which includes our kids.
I can't imagine being a primary school teacher made to be in a small room with often over 30 unmasked children, and some being at an age or above known to spread the virus as competently as adults. There's really no other measures in place- perspex barriers or air filters for example. The changed definition of a close contact and lack of quick and accurate tracing by the HSE is downright inadequate and scary. I honestly don't know how they do it.

Lillyfae

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

Is it? Anytime members of school staff have pointed out issues with safety in schools we get bombarded by people telling us to shut up and get on with it on top of the usual teachers are lazy and do nothing drivel.

Where are all the teachers dropping dead from Covid since September though? Or even being hospitalized with Covid?

I think the no evidence from the last almost 3 months speaks volumes. You should be very proud of yourselves, opening and maintaining a relatively safe environment for children so that the economy and people's lives don't come crashing down and so that those working in hospitals aren't totally overwhelmed.

JDD

The unions missed a trick here. They should have been concentrating on saying that schools should close two days early in order for families to restrict movements for a week in advance of having relatives over for Christmas Day. As an aside this could also have been said that teachers will also be able to restrict movements. They should have said nothing at all about "recharging batteries" because then teachers will automatically be compared to other frontline workers who are unable to take two days off.

In controlling the pandemic as a whole, it makes perfect sense for 1 million citizens to get four extra days (saturday, sunday, monday, tuesday) to restrict movements before inevitably having family over on Christmas Day. Yes, it will be awkward for some workers who have to organise childcare for those two days, but it is TWO DAYS. One and half days really.

Honest to God. i have no love for the teacher's unions, but we shouldn't be dismissing this idea out of hand just because we resent that it results in teachers getting two extra days (which they probably wouldn't anyway, if the government were making the decision) leave.

KaneToad

HerrKuehn wrote: »

If there was flexibility from teaching unions, i don't think people would have a problem with it. I'm sure very few would have any issues with hospital staff getting extra holidays this year to cover the extra work for example.

What about supermarket workers?
What about guards?
What about library delivery staff?
What about An Post workers?
What about DHL drivers?

I'm sure they'd like additional paid time off due to extra workload.

Additional time off has to be paid for by someone. If it's a public worker, the taxpayer pays. If it's private sector the cost will be bounced on to the customer.

meeeeh

While I can't wait for vaccine, I must say I'm not excessively stressing about the situation. I haven't seen my parents since February, dad was treated for prostate cancer last December and two week incidence rate where they are is over 900. Here MIL has diner with us ever evening. Kids are fine, they follow the instructions as best as they can but I see no point in burdening them with what could happen. They know kids are affected less, they know they have to be careful and we try to act responsibly. That's all we can do, stressing what could happen is really not productive and complete waste of time. I accept some kids are more anxious but I think excessive anxiety should be tackled differently and not to be encouraged.

Stateofyou

Lillyfae wrote: »

Where are all the teachers dropping dead from Covid since September though? Or even being hospitalized with Covid?

I think the no evidence from the last almost 3 months speaks volumes. You should be very proud of yourselves, opening and maintaining a relatively safe environment for children so that the economy and people's lives don't come crashing down and so that those working in hospitals aren't totally overwhelmed.

Is this data readily available? Are we capturing information on occupations of those hospitalised with Covid? Aren't many schools directing their staff and parents not to post anything online or speak to journalists regarding covid in their schools?
Is there really no evidence speaking volumes, or does it speak volumes that there is no public data for a reason.

Rodin

Let them finish on the 18th to restrict their movements.

Can go back 2 days earlier on 4th January to make up for it.

Easy.

E36Ross

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

Its crazy how the thought of a day and half off for a safer Christmas is untenable for some people, pure Irish begrudgery.

It really feels like a lot of the public couldn't give two ****s if teachers and school staff and their families started to drop dead from covid.

I'm not technically school staff but yet without me and others like me half the kids wouldn't be in school....... I think a lot of the "Begrudgery" is, The simple unfairness and selfishness of teachers unions to call for a blanket closure of schools a few days early.

Its very easy for them to make that call, When they don't have to worry about child care and the effects on other parents schedules. Not to mention the other staff like me, Namely bus drivers who have had limited income over the last few months and now coming into the Christmas, We're pulled 2 days early to suite teachers. (Theres also SNA, Bus Escorts, Canteen Staff, Cleaners and Maintenance people to consider)


IF it was put forward as a genuine concern for public health and limiting the spread, Fair enough I'd be 100% in favour. But its not, and thats very easily proved by the fact that they haven't suggested finishing two days early and coming back two days early in January which is the logical resolution.

And thats before I even mention the slap in the face to health care workers and other front line staff, Because the teachers feel "fatigued".

Lillyfae

JDD wrote: »

Honest to God. i have no love for the teacher's unions, but we shouldn't be dismissing this idea out of hand just because we resent that it results in teachers getting two extra days (which they probably wouldn't anyway, if the government were making the decision) leave.

I really agree with this, but in that document that wirelessdude posted earlier, it does outline that schools can play around with days as long as this is discussed beforehand. They could actually close earlier and come back earlier. I have a feeling though it was more about getting the Department of Education to take the responsibility for closing the schools so teachers could say "take it up with the DoE, they made the decision, we had no control over it"

Stateofyou

meeeeh wrote: »

While I can't wait for vaccine, I must say I'm not excessively stressing about the situation. I haven't seen my parents since February, dad was treated for prostate cancer last December and two week incidence rate where they are is over 900. Here MIL has diner with us ever evening. Kids are fine, they follow the instructions as best as they can but I see no point in burdening them with what could happen. They know kids are affected less, they know they have to be careful and we try to act responsibly. That's all we can do, stressing what could happen is really not productive and complete waste of time. I accept some kids are more anxious but I think excessive anxiety should be tackled differently and not to be encouraged.

That's a very dismissive and insensitive post. No one is encouraging "excessive anxiety."

I did catch before that you said your kids see their grandmother every day. I was quite shocked at this as everyone I know is avoiding having their kids and themselves around their elderly parents at this time. You've obviously made that decision for your own reasons, but from where I sit it doesn't seem to be the norm. It's not that we're all excessively stressing, but we're cautious to avoid an irreversible tragedy.

HerrKuehn

KaneToad wrote: »

What about supermarket workers?
What about guards?
What about library delivery staff?
What about An Post workers?
What about DHL drivers?

I'm sure they'd like additional paid time off due to extra workload.

Additional time off has to be paid for by someone. If it's a public worker, the taxpayer pays. If it's private sector the cost will be bounced on to the customer.

oh, I agree with you. There is never any flexibility from the teaching unions, so that was the point. There are plenty of holidays throughout the year, it would be no issue to move things around a bit. In my opinion it is better if organisations have flexibility from staff and management. If there is no flexibility then stick to exactly that which has been agreed.

Stateofyou

E36Ross wrote: »

I'm not technically school staff but yet without me and others like me half the kids wouldn't be in school....... I think a lot of the "Begrudgery" is, The simple unfairness and selfishness of teachers unions to call for a blanket closure of schools a few days early.

Its very easy for them to make that call, When they don't have to worry about child care and the effects on other parents schedules. Not to mention the other staff like me, Namely bus drivers who have had limited income over the last few months and now coming into the Christmas, We're pulled 2 days early to suite teachers. (Theres also SNA, Bus Escorts, Canteen Staff, Cleaners and Maintenance people to consider)


IF it was put forward as a genuine concern for public health and limiting the spread, Fair enough I'd be 100% in favour. But its not, and thats very easily proved by the fact that they haven't suggested finishing two days early and coming back two days early in January which is the logical resolution.

You really do undermine the points you're making when you misstate in a very disingenuous manner, contrary to facts, what the reasons given for a suggested early closure are.

They did put forward a genuine concern for public health and limiting the spread. It has been clearly stated.

HerrKuehn

on a positive note can I commend many of the posters on here for the enormous stamina and persistence on this and other threads. Some of you have been having the exact same conversation for months now, racking up thousands of posts in the process. Chapeau!

eagle eye

HerrKuehn wrote:

If there was flexibility from teaching unions, i don't think people would have a problem with it. I'm sure very few would have any issues with hospital staff getting extra holidays this year to cover the extra work for example.

HerrKuehn wrote:

Well, you see there isn't flexibility from teaching unions, so everyone should just do what was agreed and in the contract.

HerrKuehn wrote:

but that isn't what the unions are suggesting

HerrKuehn wrote:

The government is happy enough with them working 21st and 22nd. It is the teaching unions that want the days off, so surely up to them to make the suggestion no?

You need to park your hate for Unions and be reasonable.
You are completely ruining this conversation because your constant bringing up of unions. I'm sure if enough teachers want it to happen the union will agree.
I'm not a teacher btw and I'm not a union member in my job, one of about 3% that aren't but I don't go on about it.

Icyseanfitz

E36Ross wrote: »

I'm not technically school staff but yet without me and others like me half the kids wouldn't be in school....... I think a lot of the "Begrudgery" is, The simple unfairness and selfishness of teachers unions to call for a blanket closure of schools a few days early.

Its very easy for them to make that call, When they don't have to worry about child care and the effects on other parents schedules. Not to mention the other staff like me, Namely bus drivers who have had limited income over the last few months and now coming into the Christmas, We're pulled 2 days early to suite teachers. (Theres also SNA, Bus Escorts, Canteen Staff, Cleaners and Maintenance people to consider)


IF it was put forward as a genuine concern for public health and limiting the spread, Fair enough I'd be 100% in favour. But its not, and thats very easily proved by the fact that they haven't suggested finishing two days early and coming back two days early in January which is the logical resolution.

As an aside i am also not a teaching member of school staff, the sole reason i am perfectly okay with finishing on the 18th is that it gives me and my wife a week to isolate before spending Christmas with our elderly parents. Covid is in schools, better to have everyone away from them for a week before all families head home.

Lillyfae

eagle eye wrote: »

You need to park your hate for Unions and be reasonable.
You are completely ruining this conversation because your constant bringing up of unions. I'm sure if enough teachers want it to happen the union will agree.
I'm not a teacher btw and I'm not a union member in my job, one of about 3% that aren't but I don't go on about it.

The TUI brought up closing the schools, so that's being discussed

E36Ross

Stateofyou wrote: »

You really do undermine the points you're making when you misstate in a very disingenuous manner, contrary to facts, what the reasons given for a suggested early closure are.

They did put forward a genuine concern for public health and limiting the spread. It has been clearly stated.

Read the full paragraph in context, Not highlighting bits to suite your agenda.

I do go on to state about closing early and opening early, But there's not a suggestion of that by any union!

And part of the reasoning put forward by TUI is about fatigued teachers which has sweet feck all to do with public health and limted spread.

MelbourneMan

I haven't studied the detail of the teachers union' call yet, but for those who have, are the extra holidays for all ? I.e do they support shops being closed on the 23th and 24th for example so that retail worker get a similar boost to their morale and reduction in covid risk ?

iamwhoiam

Stateofyou wrote: »

That's a very dismissive and insensitive post. No one is encouraging "excessive anxiety."

I did catch before that you said your kids see their grandmother every day. I was quite shocked at this as everyone I know is avoiding having their kids and themselves around their elderly parents at this time. You've obviously made that decision for your own reasons, but from where I sit it doesn't seem to be the norm. It's not that we're all excessively stressing, but we're cautious to avoid an irreversible tragedy.

As a matter of interest not all grandparents are elderly . A grand parent could be 50 or early 60’s

wirelessdude01

Lillyfae wrote: »

I really agree with this, but in that document that wirelessdude posted earlier, it does outline that schools can play around with days as long as this is discussed beforehand. They could actually close earlier and come back earlier. I have a feeling though it was more about getting the Department of Education to take the responsibility for closing the schools so teachers could say "take it up with the DoE, they made the decision, we had no control over it"

Not he case at all. December closure date is clearly stated.

If as you suggest schools can alter, then surely Norma would have made reference to this when making her comments to the oireachtas education committee.

meeeeh

Stateofyou wrote: »

That's a very dismissive and insensitive post. No one is encouraging "excessive anxiety."

I did catch before that you said your kids see their grandmother every day. I was quite shocked at this as everyone I know is avoiding having their kids and themselves around their elderly parents at this time. You've obviously made that decision for your own reasons, but from where I sit it doesn't seem to be the norm. It's not that we're all excessively stressing, but we're cautious to avoid an irreversible tragedy.

She was widowed last autumn, she was just going back after bereavement to living her fairly social life when Covid struck. As is now allowed (and wasn't allowed in first lockdown but we did it anyway) she is part of our bubble. What you might consider reckless I would consider compassionate. She is old enough to make up her own mind what risks she is prepared to take. I'm certainly not going to treat her like a child and tell her what she should or shouldn't do.

You might feel I'm insensitive and dismissive but very often parents increase kids anxiety. I feel no need to burden them with extra responsibilities. I'm news junkie so they know very well what is happening and they are not ignorant.