How is China getting on?

gozunda

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You're using different vocabulary to what the quoted piece used, with obviously different connotations.

It emerged in China, which is obvious. The post you quoted referred to where it originated.

Yup. Indeed. Wuhan Institute of Virology - the premier center in China for studying bat viruses as SARs reservoirs.

Scientists from the centre discovered a coronavirus strain which came from horseshoe bats and which following the outbreak was found to be 96 percent identical to the genomic sequence of the SARS-CoV-2 virus

But nooooo - it couldn't possibly have escaped from the lab or anything similar.

Yup pure coincidence. Though Occam's razor does comes to mind

At this stage any evidence of where this virus actually came from is well and truely buried. We may as well demand that proof of God be presented.

DaSilva

Deleted User wrote: »

You're using different vocabulary to what the quoted piece used, with obviously different connotations.

It emerged in China, which is obvious. The post you quoted referred to where it originated.

Unintentional, I don't want to get into a debate on semantics where these things probably have very specific technical meanings. What I was trying to say is that I think the first case of sars-cov-2 human infection in the world most likely happened in China.

Cerveza

Manufactured disease, they have another one ready to go again.

gozunda

gozunda wrote: »

But nooooo - it couldn't possibly have escaped from the lab or anything similar.

Who said it was impossible? i certainly didn't.

However, I did say that you have zero evidence (beyond opinion pieces) to support your oft repeated idea that it did. Hence it remains in the conspiracy theory category,..

At this stage any evidence of where this virus actually came from is well and truely buried. We may as well demand that proof of God be presented.

Well, that's convenient, since it allows you to make dramatic statements to your hearts content.

The origin of most viruses were determined after the fact. After the spread, and the effects. There will be ways to determine where it came from.. but it will likely take decades for that to happen, just as it did with other viruses. You want to take the easiest option, and jump to conclusions.

DaSilva

DaSilva wrote: »

Unintentional, I don't want to get into a debate on semantics where these things probably have very specific technical meanings. What I was trying to say is that I think the first case of sars-cov-2 human infection in the world most likely happened in China.

You introduced a different word and led with that different meaning as a basis for your whole post. I wouldn't consider that unintentional, and the differences in meaning are hardly technical.

I honestly don't know where the first case happened. There are many claims of covid happening outside before it 'emerged' in Wuhan. I suspect it could easily have happened in India, or any number of nearby countries and been transmitted across borders into China. Or it did, indeed, start in China. I simply don't know, and I haven't seen any definitive evidence to prove it, one way or another. And I see no value in assuming that it did. It's being used as a stick to beat China with, and I see serious implications arising as a result of that. Personally, I don't consider it sensible to play the blame game on this.

DaSilva

Deleted User wrote: »

You introduced a different word and led with that different meaning as a basis for your whole post. I wouldn't consider that unintentional, and the differences in meaning are hardly technical.

I honestly don't know where the first case happened. There are many claims of covid happening outside before it 'emerged' in Wuhan. I suspect it could easily have happened in India, or any number of nearby countries and been transmitted across borders into China. Or it did, indeed, start in China. I simply don't know, and I haven't seen any definitive evidence to prove it, one way or another. And I see no value in assuming that it did. It's being used as a stick to beat China with, and I see serious implications arising as a result of that. Personally, I don't consider it sensible to play the blame game on this.

It wasn't intentional, I am not trying to play semantics, I tried to clarify what I meant to end that discussion, but again you insist on having some argument when there needn't be any. If you want, you can define all the words and their meanings and I can tell you which one I intended to use if my previous clarification wasn't enough.

I am not trying to blame China, like I said in my post, chance is a huge factor, and China due to its size and population is more likely to be a source of such events than Ireland. I don't think its worth blaming China anymore than it would make sense to blame Russia for being hit by an asteroid (meteor/comet? I don't know the correct word, please forgive me) given its size its more likely to happen there than here.

I also do not know where sars-cov-2 originated. I think the evidence suggests it happened in China, maybe one day we will know for sure. To be clear, again here I mean the first case of sars-cov-2 human infection.

DaSilva

DaSilva wrote: »

It wasn't intentional, I am not trying to play semantics, I tried to clarify what I meant to end that discussion, but again you insist on having some argument when there needn't be any. If you want, you can define all the words and their meanings and I can tell you which one I intended to use if my previous clarification wasn't enough.
.

Not seeking an argument over it. I'm fine with leaving it at that.

gozunda

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Who said it was impossible? i certainly didn't. However, I did say that you have zero evidence (beyond opinion pieces) to support your oft repeated idea that it did. Hence it remains in the conspiracy theory category,..Well, that's convenient, since it allows you to make dramatic statements to your hearts content. The origin of most viruses were determined after the fact. After the spread, and the effects. There will be ways to determine where it came from.. but it will likely take decades for that to happen, just as it did with other viruses. You want to take the easiest option, and jump to conclusions.

My "oft repeated idea it did" I think you mixing me up with all the other posters here who have been pointing out the nativity of that type of POV over the last few pages

And indeed there's certaintly more than one scientist/ expert and who have pointed to the likleyhood of the Cov-2 virus originating in Wuhan as highly likley and why. But I digress sure personal bias outweighs all that and them are just "opinion pieces" ...

And it remains leaving aside the fact that any proof has been well and truely buried does not negate the fact that the The Wuhan Institute of Virology was working on these very viruses just prior to this outbreak in Wuhan

Or that the Chinese have absolutely no interest in bioweapon development or similar? Or the chances of the rest of the world been told the truth is practically nil? What we do know is that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Unfortunately China have no interest in admiting to anything. If they did - that would be a first.

gozunda

[Deleted User] wrote: »

... I simply don't know, and I haven't seen any definitive evidence to prove it, one way or another. And I see no value in assuming that it did. It's being used as a stick to beat China with, and I see serious implications arising as a result of that. Personally, I don't consider it sensible to play the blame game on this.

And in all likleyhood we never will. Looking at the facts and based on probability - Sars CoV-2 originated in Wuhan.

Funny thing it's a stick the Chinese authorities are using now to beat the rest of the world with claiming any idea whatsoever that the virus started in Wuhan is lies / racism / anti Chinese sentiment. The fact that they won't accept even the possibility is telling in itself.

Did you mean that the underlined bit to come across as a threat from China? And that will be retaliation or worse where such ideas are expressed? Very interesting if so -

Whatever SARs-CoV-2 is - its not a game. Not to the rest of the world anyway.

Flinty997

Deleted User wrote: »

...I suspect it could easily have happened in India, or any number of nearby countries and been transmitted across borders into China. Or it did, indeed, start in China. I simply don't know, and I haven't seen any definitive evidence to prove it, ....

Just coincidence probably. It most likely spontaneously occurred somewhere like the US, traveled across half the world to Wuhan without infecting anyone, and then was just Chinese diligence that caused it to be identified there and missed by every other country..., or frozen salmon.

The virus was first confirmed to have spread to Italy on 31 January 2020, when two Chinese tourists in Rome tested positive for the virus.[1] One week later an Italian man repatriated back to Italy from the city of Wuhan, China, was hospitalised and confirmed as the third case in Italy

The first cases of COVID-19 in India were reported in the towns of Thrissur, Alappuzha and Kasargod, all in the state of Kerala, among three Indian medical students who had returned from Wuhan.

On January 19, 2020, a 35-year-old man presented to an urgent care clinic in Snohomish County, Washington, with a 4-day history of cough and subjective fever. On checking into the clinic, the patient put on a mask in the waiting room. After waiting approximately 20 minutes, he was taken into an examination room and underwent evaluation by a provider. He disclosed that he had returned to Washington State on January 15 after traveling to visit family in Wuhan, China.

It would be useful to know, the source, to prevent it re-occurring again.
But we will never know. China's fine anyway. No need to worry.

There have been other outbreaks across history across the globe. So its not like these only happen in China, or in this case, most probably didn't happen in China, almost certainly didn't...

https://www.healthline.com/health/worst-disease-outbreaks-history

gozunda

gozunda wrote: »

My "oft repeated idea it did" I think you mixing me up with all the other posters here who have been pointing out the nativity of that type of POV over the last few pages

Nope. I tend to remember posters on a thread. Now, I could be wrong, but I'm pretty certain that you've popped into the thread a variety of times to post the Wuhan lab conspiracy theory.

And indeed there's certaintly more than one scientist/ expert and who have pointed to the likleyhood of the Cov-2 virus originating in Wuhan as highly likley and why. But I digress sure personal bias outweighs all that and them are just "opinion pieces" ...

They're opinion pieces because they have no evidence to back up their statements. I've seen the articles referenced by posters both on this thread, and other threads which talked about China being directly responsible for the virus.

But sure, provide the thread with some concrete evidence (nope, not a reason to dump a pile of opinions from "experts"). I'd love to see it. Otherwise, you're still promoting a conspiracy theory.

And it remains leaving aside the fact that any proof has been well and truely buried does not negate the fact that the The Wuhan Institute of Virology was working on these very viruses just prior to this outbreak in Wuhan

Two facts mentioned, neither of which are facts. They're assumptions based on... more opinion pieces, that haven't been proven to be true.

Or that the Chinese have absolutely no interest in bioweapon development or similar? Or the chances of the rest of the world been told the truth is practically nil? What we do know is that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

I'm sure that they are interested in such research.. since the US remains the biggest producer and stockpile of such weapons in the world, and China will interest itself in such things, either for defensive or offensive purposes.

As for being told the truth, it's possible that they have. Just as it's possible they haven't. The simple truth is that these assumptions are based on past behavior by China, as opposed to actual evidence to prove it. Is China untrustworthy? Definitely. Is that proof, in itself? Nope.

Unfortunately China have no interest in admiting to anything. If they did - that would be a first.

Except they have admitted blame on a range of issues in the past.. when it suited their purposes to do so. I'm not suggesting they're angels. Nothing in any of my posts seeks to make such a claim. At the same time though, I find a lot of the attitudes displayed online regarding China, stem more about a belief that they're lying, than any actual evidence that they are.

Flinty997

Flinty997 wrote: »

Just coincidence probably. It most likely spontaneously occurred somewhere like the US, traveled across half the world to Wuhan without infecting anyone, and then was just Chinese diligence that caused it to be identified there and missed by every other country..., or frozen salmon.

Considering the range of airtravel and the lack of testing of passengers at the time, it's possible. I don't know how likely it is.. although, I imagine my original suggestion that it crossed China's border from another neighboring country is more likely.

It comes back to... I don't know. And neither do you. Nor does anyone else at this point in time. There are theories, but there's nothing definite.

It would be useful to know, the source, to prevent it re-occurring again.
But we will never know. China's fine anyway. No need to worry.

We probably will know, after extensive research and investigation is performed over the years. As for China being fine... yeah.. I'd say it's very much early days for that kind of assumption, in spite of the Chinese propaganda...

Still we'll likely hear something similar from western governments as the vaccines become far more widespread.. and it'll still be too early for that kind of assumption. Won't stop them from making the claims though.

gozunda

gozunda wrote: »

Did you mean that the underlined bit to come across as a threat from China? And that will be retaliation or worse where such ideas are expressed? Very interesting if so -

Whatever SARs-CoV-2 is - its not a game. Not to the rest of the world anyway.

Remember the public reaction to Chinese people living in Western countries regarding covid. The hostility that was directed against them. Not China. Individuals that have no control or involvement over how China behaves as a nation. That's what I mean by a threat.

The virus itself is not a game. The blaming of others is most definitely a game, and one that is being used to push attention away from the ineptitude of western governments, and focus it elsewhere.

gozunda

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Remember the public reaction to Chinese people living in Western countries regarding covid. The hostility that was directed against them. Not China. Individuals that have no control or involvement over how China behaves as a nation. That's what I mean by a threat.

The virus itself is not a game. The blaming of others is most definitely a game, and one that is being used to push attention away from the ineptitude of western governments , and focus it elsewhere.

There is no "blaming" of ordinary Chinese people being advocated here.

What is being referred to is the general idea that the Chinese state authorities must be believed without question.

We've already seen how the WHO went along with that idea and initially refused to accept any other version than the Chinese state one that there was no P2P transmission of SARs-CoV-2. That and whilst China locked itself down internally with gulag like efficiency insisting that there was absolutely no need for restrictions on international flights from China. And we know how that went.

And no it's not a competition of which western country is most 'inept' - its standing up and at least acknowledging from what is known the probability is high that the virus likley originated in China. Unfortunately that's unlikely ever to happen. Why? Because even on the most basic level Chinese authorities simply don't like losing face ...

Flinty997

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Considering the range of airtravel and the lack of testing of passengers at the time, it's possible. I don't know how likely it is.. although, I imagine my original suggestion that it crossed China's border from another neighboring country is more likely. .....

It's obviously western propaganda to create outbreaks across the entire globe, all four corners and make it look like they all came from China. Certainly not impossible. Especially probably that all China's neighbours did this, simultaneously.

gozunda

gozunda wrote: »

There is no "blaming" of ordinary Chinese people being advocated here.

But it will happen nonetheless. Surely, you can recognise that?

What is being referred to is the general idea that the Chinese state authorities must be believed without question.

Nobody outside of China, and Chinese people believes that, nor has anyone on this thread suggested that they should be.

Who has been saying that they should be?

We've already seen how the WHO went along with that idea and initially refused to accept any other version than the Chinese state one that there was no P2P transmission of SARs-CoV-2. That and whilst China locked itself down internally with gulag like efficiency insisting that there was absolutely no need to restrictions on international flights from China. And we know how that went.

The WHO are an organisation biased due to where their funding comes from. I wouldn't be terribly quick to accept their claims without it being backed up by a variety of other groups. Regardless of whether it's supporting Chinese or US views on the subject.

As for China's draconian measures, that depended on where you were. I have friends, both Chinese and foreign, who didn't experience any of that. Different provinces applied various methods and levels of responding to the threat... and it seems to have worked. They're ahead of Europe both on the curve, and in reactivating their economy/society.

And no it's not a competition of which western country is most 'inept' - its standing up and at least acknowledging from what is known the probability is high that the virus likley originated in China. Unfortunately that's unlikely ever to happen. Why? Because even on the most basic level Chinese authorities simply don't like losing face ...

I get the feeling you're not really considering what I've written.

gozunda

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Nope. I tend to remember posters on a thread. Now, I could be wrong, but I'm pretty certain that you've popped into the thread a variety of times to post the Wuhan lab conspiracy theory.

Do you? Really Go check the thread before throwing accusations there boyo.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

They're opinion pieces because they have no evidence to back up their statements. I've seen the articles referenced by posters both on this thread, and other threads which talked about China being directly responsible for the virus.

Even the most cursory search will give detailed analysis of scientists and experts as to why Wuhan is the likley site for the origin of this virus. Look it up if you're not happy with the 'articles' others have posted. You may just learn something.

That you dismiss everything as verisimilitude
and continously defend Chinas stance that apparently everyone else is to blame eg "the ineptitude of western governments"
without any backup or rationale is frankly downright odd at best ..

[Deleted User] wrote: »

But sure, provide the thread with some concrete evidence (nope, not a reason to dump a pile of opinions from "experts"). I'd love to see it. Otherwise, you're still promoting a conspiracy theory.
Two facts mentioned, neither of which are facts. They're assumptions based on... more opinion pieces, that haven't been proven to be true.
I'm sure that they are interested in such research.. since the US remains the biggest producer and stockpile of such weapons in the world, and China will interest itself in such things, either for defensive or offensive purposes.As for being told the truth, it's possible that they have. Just as it's possible they haven't. The simple truth is that these assumptions are based on past behavior by China, as opposed to actual evidence to prove it. Is China untrustworthy? Definitely. Is that proof, in itself? Nope. Except they have admitted blame on a range of issues in the past.. when it suited their purposes to do so. I'm not suggesting they're angels. Nothing in any of my posts seeks to make such a claim. At the same time though, I find a lot of the attitudes displayed online regarding China, stem more about a belief that they're lying, than any actual evidence that they are.

Ah yes "eveything" is a conspiracy theory and likly to smear the good name of China. :rolleyes:

Concrete evidence? Sure that's going to happen!. As detailed any information that was likley there- has been well and trurly buried 50 feet under said concrete. But leaving that aside - the fact that the Chinese state authority refuse to even admit the possibility is itself telling.

The fact remains that the The Wuhan Institute of Virology just happened to be studying the very same virus strains occurring in native bat populations and researching that in Wuhan prior to the Pandemic is of course all just one huge coincidence that Chinese State Authorities say couldn't possibly have anything to do with the current global pandemic! Lets say that even for the most sceptical that idea is very difficult to swallow. But leaving that aside - the fact that the same Chinese state authority refuse to even admit the possibility is again most telling.

Remember this is the same country that ran people over in tanks for simply demonstrating and accused those medical professionals trying to inform others of the threat possed by SARs-CoV-2 for saying things which 'violate the People’s Republic of China, picking quarrels and provoking troublemaking" or making "false comments” that “severely disturbed the social order” or similar? But sure never mind the same Chinese state authorities are a great bunch of lads

It doesn't wash ...

Flinty997

Flinty997 wrote: »

It's obviously western propaganda to create outbreaks across the entire globe, all four corners and make it look like they all came from China. Certainly not impossible. Especially probably that all China's neighbour did this, simultaneously.

I honestly don't care. Until I see some evidence that covid originated in China, or was created in China... I will continue to simply believe it was first detected there. That's it. Detection.

gozunda

gozunda wrote: »

Do you Go? Really Go check the thread before throwing accusations there boyo.

Okay. My mistake. Can you ever forgive me?

Even the most cursory search will give detailed analysis of scientists and experts as to why Wuhan is the likley site for the origin of this virus. Look it up if you're not happy with the 'articles' others have posted. You may just learn something.

As I said, opinion pieces by experts. Are still opinion pieces. No solid evidence.

That you dismiss everything as verisimilitude
and continously defend Chinas stance that apparently everyone else is to blame eg "the ineptitude of western governments"
without any backup or rationale is frankly downright odd at best ..

Hardly. I asked for evidence as opposed to opinion pieces. That's hardly unreasonable. We live in a world driven by agendas, and bias is extremely common throughout the world... so, yeah, I'd prefer some solid evidence.

As for defending China's stance... where have I done that? The reference to western ineptitude is not a "one or the other" scenario. Both can be an issue. China's behavior was abysmal, and western nations were inept.

And that's part of the problem really. Those who want to condemn China, tend to want to ignore or dismiss the mistakes done by western governments. Better to focus entirely on one target. Deflection.

Ah yes "eveything" is a conspiracy theory and likly to smear the good name of China. :rolleyes:

Meh. You're not paying attention to what I've written about China.

It doesn't wash ...

Fine. It doesn't wash. Neither does your posting either. You're annoyed that I made a mistake in claiming that you'd posted about the conspiracy theory... grand. My mistake. However, you've since decided to go running around throwing crap all over the place, making your own inaccurate statements about what I supposedly believe.

You believe the possibility of something being true is enough to warrant complete acceptance. I don't.

gozunda

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Okay. My mistake. Can you ever forgive me?

LOl. Just pointing out reality.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

As I said, opinion pieces by experts. Are still opinion pieces. No solid evidence. Hardly. I asked for evidence as opposed to opinion pieces. That's hardly unreasonable. We live in a world driven by agendas, and bias is extremely common throughout the world... so, yeah, I'd prefer some solid evidence. As for defending China's stance... where have I done that? The reference to western ineptitude is not a "one or the other" scenario. Both can be an issue. China's behavior was abysmal, and western nations were inept. And that's part of the problem really. Those who want to condemn China, tend to want to ignore or dismiss the mistakes done by western governments. Better to focus entirely on one target. Deflection.

Nope. You strangely just keep repeating the same stuff. Experts provide expert opinions. Strange that you just dismiss that out of hand so. No?

But yes I've answered all that already. And lol not me bringing in 'the ineptitude of western governments" etc etc by way of deflection in a discussion as to the origin of the SARs-CoV-2 virus...

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Meh. You're not paying attention to what I've written about China.

Oh but I did. I have a very good memory for what has already been said. See first paragraph.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Fine. It doesn't wash. Neither does your posting either. You're annoyed that I made a mistake in claiming that you'd posted about the conspiracy theory... grand. My mistake. However, you've since decided to go running around throwing crap all over the place, making your own inaccurate statements about what I supposedly believe. You believe the possibility of something being true is enough to warrant complete acceptance. I don't.

Ah so its now personal . And I'm "go(ing) running around throwing crap all over the place"? Well I could say the exact same. But let's stay out of the sewer just for the moment.

But no not annoyed at all. In fact I quite enjoyed pointing that out. My posting is in reply to your claims which simply dont stand up to scrutiny imho. But yes it remains - the odds of the virus originating in the exact place where coincidently indiginous bat species were being studied as a reservoir for the SARs virus - is just well just a bit too coincidental for even the most sceptical imho.

You state that you  "simply believe it was first detected there. That's it. Detection".

Tbh that comes actoss as naive at best. But no matter. I think we can leave it there.

Flinty997

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I honestly don't care. Until I see some evidence that covid originated in China, or was created in China... I will continue to simply believe it was first detected there. That's it. Detection.

I guess we'd better not rule out it started in Ireland. I mean it might have been here first just not detected. There's no evidence that it didn't.

Well other than the actual evidence. But since we've only heard that second hand we can't assume it's true.

Flinty997

gozunda wrote: »

...Nope. You strangely just keep repeating the same stuff. Experts provide expert opinions. Strange that you just dismiss them out of hand so. No? ....

Well we can now rule out everything in this thread as opinion. Everything.

I'm not longer sure is China doing grand or not. That also might be just opinion.

gozunda

gozunda wrote: »

My posting is in reply to your claims which simply dont stand up to scrutiny imho.

What claims of mine don't stand up to scrutiny?

I haven't made any claims over the last few pages. None. At least, none that have been countered by you. I gave a variety of possibilities, and my own opinions on what others have written... but... no actual claims that you've managed to expose... (If I had, I would have made reference to "facts" and provided links as supporting information.)

I think we can leave it there.

My thoughts exactly since I don't see anything useful coming from this discussion.

Flinty997

[Deleted User] wrote: »

...And that's part of the problem really. Those who want to condemn China, tend to want to ignore or dismiss the mistakes done by western governments. Better to focus entirely on one target. Deflection. ..

The subject of the thread is China. Not anything else.
Wanted to focus on that is not deflection. However wanting to talk about anything other than the topic title certainly is.

Flinty997

I see in their opinion they landed on Mars. Found that no problem.

Flinty997

Flinty997 wrote: »

The subject of the thread is China. Not anything else.
Wanted to focus on that is not deflection. However wanting to talk about anything other than the topic title certainly is.

The topic of the thread is China but you repeatedly talk about how other countries have had waves while they haven't. Your scepticism of their figures is entirely based on other countries' numbers. When we try to focus on what they have done, you keep bringing it back to comparisons.

Flinty997

Flinty997 wrote: »

The subject of the thread is China. Not anything else.
Wanted to focus on that is not deflection. However wanting to talk about anything other than the topic title certainly is.

The focus is on how China is getting on, and what interacts with China has relevance.

But sure, I'll stop mentioning other countries, if you do the same.

Flinty997

Deleted User wrote: »

The focus is on how China is getting on, and what interacts with China has relevance.

But sure, I'll stop mentioning other countries, if you do the same.

There a certain irony, in people constantly asking about other countries, New Zealand, Vietnam etc. then if any one replies, complaining that its the people replying that keep taking about other countries. Since what people are saying is "opinion" not actual "evidence" we can ignore it anyway. So we can ignore what's happening other countries, and indeed any inferring it was imported into China.



China may or may not be grand, may or may not be getting on with the space race. Depends on "opinions".

TomSweeney

China no 2nd wave, 18% economy growth - yeah they are doing great !!
Almost like they benefited from this disease they allegedly created.

DaSilva

Some of America's top virologists have published an open letter in Science recommending further investigation of the origins of the virus and to take the lab leak hypothesis seriously

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/372/6543/694.1