Britain commemorating VE day

MoonUnit75

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

No to everything there.

Originally a German bomber crew got lost heading to an airfield attack, it was dark they wanted to get home so they dropped there bombs. They unknowingly dropped them on London or some other city. Bomber command Hit Berlin in reprisal a few nights later, hitler was incensed and he ordered London demolished, this change of tax meant airstrips weren’t destroyed there allowing the RAF to keep a decisive presents.

Yes, that began the campaign againt civilians but the Luftwaffe had been bombing a hodge podge of targets up until then, inluding industrial areas of London. They thought they were destroying fighter command and aircraft production but they were more often bombing bomber airfields, costal defences and supposed radar installations. If they had started the targeting of fighter command a month or three weeks earlier than they had they may have won, but the bombing of airfields wasn’t actually achieving what the Germans thought it was. It was losses in the air that was pushing fighter command to the brink.

Mad_maxx

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

The soviets were also getting a huge amounts from the Americans. The Soviet’s had one resource that the others hadn’t, men which they used by the million.

and well motivated to fight to the death as stalin would have them get the bullet if they returned home anyway

end of the road

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Has anyone on this thread made this claim?

no but the way the poster i was replying to was talking it sounds to me that it was what he was getting at.

Timberrrrrrrr

end of the road wrote: »

no but the way the poster i was replying to was talking it sounds to me that it was what he was getting at.

So no one has made that claim but you decide to attribute the claim regardless.

end of the road

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

So no one has made that claim but you decide to attribute the claim regardless.

no i simply replied to a poster and informed him of the state of play just in case.

Timberrrrrrrr

end of the road wrote: »

no i simply replied to a poster and informed him of the state of play just in case.

It's called putting words into people's mouths.

MoonUnit75

MoonUnit75 wrote: »

Yes, that began the campaign againt civilians but the Luftwaffe had been bombing a hodge podge of targets up until then, inluding industrial areas of London. They thought they were destroying fighter command and aircraft production but they were more often bombing bomber airfields, costal defences and supposed radar installations. If they had started the targeting of fighter command a month or three weeks earlier than they had they may have won, but the bombing of airfields wasn’t actually achieving what the Germans thought it was. It was losses in the air that was pushing fighter command to the brink.

It was also the cratering of established runways which limited their ability to strike back. Certain aircraft could be operated on temporary airfields, but their bombers needed the established airfields, which were, in turn, needed to protect their naval convoys or provide support to their surface fleet.

The change for the luftwaffe towards civilian targets, ended any possibility of gaining air superiority. Had the Germans achieved air superiority in the South, they would have been able to whittle down the British surface fleets, which were needed to protect the convoys, ultimately giving Germany a better chance to utilize their own navy to protect an invasion.

Hamsterchops

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Why are we even having this argument?

Because some people can't allow Britain to have anything positive. Plus there's the added aspect that Nationalism or national pride of any kind is now considered a negative, and/or right wing.

I wouldn't be so supporting of the British saving Europe PR spin (their contributions to WW2 were very limited although still important.. and they entered/prosecuted the war for selfish reasons). However, I can't see the harm in the British celebrating their involvement in WW2. If it means, any kind of national spirit towards being "good guys" then, go for it.

branie2

Remembering the people who fought for England

Lefty Bicek

Mad_maxx wrote: »

germany hasnt been militaristic at all since WW2 and wasnt before WW1 ,

Well that's certainly not so. No Weltpolitik, no WW1 probably. Weltpolitik dates back to ~1890.

britain has been for more than five centuries and still is

you dont run an empire for several centuries without a deep militaristic streak running through the culture

Ah, so when you said 'the most of any European nation'

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=113392143&postcount=188

you clearly meant 'for the longest time'.


There are more insightful ways to measure militarism in nations/states/nation states past and present, I think.

end of the road

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

It's called putting words into people's mouths.

it's not, that is very different to what i was doing, which i stated in my previous post being what i was actually doing.

whisky_galore

Mad_maxx wrote: »

germany hasnt been militaristic ....and wasnt before WW1 ,

Ah Jaysus... come on like.

storker

Is this a good time to recycle an old meme?





.

blinding

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Well there we go, exactly the type of crap I was talking about. Honestly, if you can't commemorate and congratulate Britain & her Allies on the defeat of Hitler on VE Day, then it's a sad reflection on your perspective of WWII.

The Battle of Britain was a stunning victory for the RAF as an underdog gainst a much more powerful Luftwaffe.

We can all be thankful that Britain and her Allies won.

The Luftwaffe fighter planes only had enough fuel to stay over Britain for 20 minute = Big fook Up.:eek:

TheBoyConor

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Ah lads. Don't begrudge the British a bit of national pride. WW2 was a big event in modern British history. A lot of British history is a mix of triumph with deep shame. WW2 is a pretty good event in their history.

If Ireland had a similar impact on WW2, we'd celebrate it too. VE day is a good day out for the British (not this year, obviously) and I certainly don't begrudge them a bit of national pride.

I don't think you can be fully Irish of you don't begrudge the English over any thing that they like or do well at.

Lefty Bicek

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

Well that's certainly not so. No Weltpolitik, no WW1 probably. Weltpolitik dates back to ~1890.
.

Agreed, but then there's a certain spin at work. All major nations were militaristic until WW1. It was a world of empires, and Germany was only behaving the same as other empires, and in many ways, was more peaceful considering the lack of foreign adventures. I'm often minded when looking at WW1 that they had little choice about joining, and yet, they're blamed the most. Few nations want to take responsibility for the way diplomacy and the network of alliances had evolved. Certainly the French and British, in many ways, had more responsibility for WW1 than Germany. Just as they did for WW2, with the Versailles treaty which would only result in conflict at a later stage. I find there's a lot of PR spin about the involvement of nations throughout that period, simply to pass everything over to Germany... and Britain/US are are at the center of that PR spin.

armaghlad

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Because some people can't allow Britain to have anything positive. Plus there's the added aspect that Nationalism or national pride of any kind is now considered a negative, and/or right wing.

I wouldn't be so supporting of the British saving Europe PR spin (their contributions to WW2 were very limited although still important.. and they entered/prosecuted the war for selfish reasons). However, I can't see the harm in the British celebrating their involvement in WW2. If it means, any kind of national spirit towards being "good guys" then, go for it.

British nationalism is right wing though. It’s literally celebrating imperialism. Nationalism can be left wing, eg Ireland or the brand of civic nationalism attached to the Indy movement in Scotland. I haven’t seen any of that when it comes to British nationalism. What I have seen is a load of Union Jack bunting and flags, street parties and German flags being burnt (and that’s just in NI)

blinding

armaghlad wrote: »

British nationalism is right wing though. It’s literally celebrating imperialism. Nationalism can be left wing, eg Ireland or the brand of civic nationalism attached to the Indy movement in Scotland. I haven’t seen any of that when it comes to British nationalism. What I have seen is a load of Union Jack bunting and flags, street parties and German flags being burnt (and that’s just in NI)

Northern Ireland is nothing like Britain. Its an embarrassment with the Úber Brit carry on ! ! !

dd973

armaghlad wrote: »

British nationalism is right wing though. It’s literally celebrating imperialism. Nationalism can be left wing, eg Ireland or the brand of civic nationalism attached to the Indy movement in Scotland. I haven’t seen any of that when it comes to British nationalism. What I have seen is a load of Union Jack bunting and flags, street parties and German flags being burnt (and that’s just in NI)

It's also dumb as f**k, obsequious, toadying, fascistic and decoupled from reality (Brexit, British Exceptionalism), I'm hoping the Scots get out of the United Kingdumb as it will loosen the bonds with the North.

There are loads of decent progressive English folk who've no time for the Monarchy, the Secret Services, Trident and that cabal of RP voiced scum whose grip on their country and lives appears absolute, thank God we got out.

armaghlad

armaghlad wrote: »

British nationalism is right wing though. It’s literally celebrating imperialism. Nationalism can be left wing, eg Ireland or the brand of civic nationalism attached to the Indy movement in Scotland. I haven’t seen any of that when it comes to British nationalism. What I have seen is a load of Union Jack bunting and flags, street parties and German flags being burnt (and that’s just in NI)

British nationalism is everything. Just as it is in every country. Some people turn to the right whereas for others the connotations are different,

My niece is English, and the family of her mother are very royalist. There's no sign of right wing nationalism with them. Plenty of flag waving and national pride towards their perceived accomplishments but nothing particularly negative about any of it. But then, they're educated, and all work in professional jobs. If you're taking your cues from soccer hooligans, then you're going to get a different impression.

This is my problem with all this. This looking at one side of nationalism like it's something simplistic. It's not. There are subtleties involved... and I wouldn't begin to guess how those degrees of nationalism could evolve into, if given the right kind of momentum.

Don't get me wrong. The British governmental system and politics is beyond Fcuked up. As is their sense of national identity. However, I don't see anything really negative about celebrating VE day. And yes, I've read the entire thread. Most of the comments against the VE day celebrations seem more like unreasonable hatred/anger, which is one of the things I'd love to see Irish people put behind them.

whisky_galore

armaghlad wrote: »

British nationalism is right wing though. It’s literally celebrating imperialism. Nationalism can be left wing, eg Ireland or the brand of civic nationalism attached to the Indy movement in Scotland. I haven’t seen any of that when it comes to British nationalism. What I have seen is a load of Union Jack bunting and flags, street parties and German flags being burnt (and that’s just in NI)

A patriot loves his country, a nationalist hates everyone else's.

blinding

whisky_galore wrote: »

A patriot loves his country, a nationalist hates everyone else's.

Nonsense.

Odhinn

whisky_galore wrote: »

A patriot loves his country, a nationalist hates everyone else's.

Not true at all.

armaghlad

[Deleted User] wrote: »

British nationalism is everything. Just as it is in every country. Some people turn to the right whereas for others the connotations are different,

My niece is English, and the family of her mother are very royalist. There's no sign of right wing nationalism with them. Plenty of flag waving and national pride towards their perceived accomplishments but nothing particularly negative about any of it. But then, they're educated, and all work in professional jobs. If you're taking your cues from soccer hooligans, then you're going to get a different impression.

This is my problem with all this. This looking at one side of nationalism like it's something simplistic. It's not. There are subtleties involved... and I wouldn't begin to guess how those degrees of nationalism could evolve into, if given the right kind of momentum.

Don't get me wrong. The British governmental system and politics is beyond Fcuked up. As is their sense of national identity. However, I don't see anything really negative about celebrating VE day. And yes, I've read the entire thread. Most of the comments against the VE day celebrations seem more like unreasonable hatred/anger, which is one of the things I'd love to see Irish people put behind them.

I get that a lot of it is benign and I actually don’t begrudge them celebrating their country’s role in WW2. Nor would I dismiss them all as lager louts just because they love their Royal family. There are a lot nuances involved but the reality is the UK is an inherently right wing country.

armaghlad

armaghlad wrote: »

I get that a lot of it is benign and I actually don’t begrudge them celebrating their country’s role in WW2. Nor would I dismiss them all as lager louts just because they love their Royal family. There are a lot nuances involved but the reality is the UK is an inherently right wing country.

It depends on who you're talking about. Their demographics have changed considerably over the last few decades, with a rather large population with little connection to the past English attitude of Empire and right wing perspectives.

Still, I would agree that there is a definite imbalance within their traditional society (especially the 'working' classes) where right wing beliefs gain greater momentum... although I don't feel that being right wing is inherently bad.

I don't think the UK really knows what it is anymore. There's a lot of posturing and denial going on.

RobMc59

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It depends on who you're talking about. Their demographics have changed considerably over the last few decades, with a rather large population with little connection to the past English attitude of Empire and right wing perspectives.

Still, I would agree that there is a definite imbalance within their traditional society (especially the 'working' classes) where right wing beliefs gain greater momentum... although I don't feel that being right wing is inherently bad.

I don't think the UK really knows what it is anymore. There's a lot of posturing and denial going on.

Its not controversial or right wing to have respect and affection for the Royal family or armed forces here in the UK.The majority of people who fought and died in various wars for Britain were working class.

RobMc59

RobMc59 wrote: »

Its not controversial or right wing to have respect and affection for the Royal family or armed forces here in the UK.The majority of people who fought and died in various wars for Britain were working class.

I wasn't referring to pride in the military or the royal family as being right winged. I'm merely pointing out that nationalism in the UK depends on who you're talking to, and the demographics have changed dramatically over the last few decades. As such there will be a more varied mismash of perspectives.