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How will schools be able to go back in September?

shoppergal

Just wondering if anyone can give any insight into how schools could safely re-open in September?

Everyone I'm talking to is saying they won't be back until September but in my head I'm wondering how they'll re-open even in September? The virus will still be there with a vaccine still months away at that stage.

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HerrKuehn

Deleted User wrote: »

Justify the position on masks being ineffective by the WHO and actually harmful by de Gascun then. This was totally against all the available evidence about any respiratory virus that ever existed before. And don't try the weasel words about "no evidence at the time". This killed people. As did moving people from COVID hospitals into nursing homes. Either of these things didn't take a doctorate in epidemiology to know they were bad ideas.

I've got a degree in science; this totally went against best practices. If bridges were built like this they would all collapse.

I am not in a position to say what informed his opinion at the time, I wasn't in any of the meetings. It is others who are suggesting it is something nefarious. I haven't seen anything to suggest we should doubt his character either.
So, you have a degree in science, well done. Join the very large crowd. Most of the posters here with strong opinions probably never read papers in a scientific journal, never mind publishing papers.

Boggles

Deleted User wrote: »

Practical compromises have to be made.

Absolutely.

Like I said after Wave 2 just before Wave 3.

Every day is a learning day.

#science.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

That's exactly what we need Jimmy. We cant be hand holding now because of social distancing. We'll show the way, but the teachers will have to come out from under the bed themselves

Solidarity Reg.

I'm after bringing all my food and drinks up here under the bed. When I've that finished I'll come out and find you.

[Deleted User]

caveat emptor wrote: »

Yeah that was bull. They had a recommendation based on the following.....
We can't procure masks for health care workers

If the general public start buying them it would exasperate the situation.

We should muddy the waters and say they don't work.

That way we have political cover.

let's say they don't work.

This is quite similar situation in my mind.

we need kids to go back to school
for the economy

for people's sanity

for their future education

science is unclear on weather there will be long term damage even to asymptotic cases

that problem won't manifest for years to come

lets open schools.

I agree actually. What they *should* do is state the facts as they are known now and take a calculated risk. Having schools closed for years - as we are potentially looking at - will have a huge cost to society too.

Already people getting a COVID leaving cert won't be as valued by employers as people who actually sat it.

Other workers are taking the same risks every day - the time has come for schools to reopen too.

[Deleted User]

Boggles wrote: »

Yeah way better to send them all in under the current "plan" which will accelerate the reseeding of the virus in community which will lead to further national restrictions including school closures. Public Health measures don't apply to over a fifth of population in over crowed confined spaces. #science.

Like I keep saying we know all this things now, but after Wave 2 and just before Wave 3 we may actually cop on and stop cherry picking the science around this novel virus where the vast majority of the country have no immunity.

NPHET have said it will only take a rise of 20 infections per 100,000 and we are back to reintroducing national restrictions.

With margins like that you would imagine we would at least try and get things right.

No, sure twil be grand.

Practical compromises have to be made.

Lillyfae

Peter Flynt wrote: »

"Schools will not have to automatically disclose if there is a confirmed case"

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/only-close-contacts-will-be-told-about-covid-19-cases-in-schools-39406571.html

Sorry, this is behind a paywall. Can you please stop posting clickbait headlines and just post the whole article?

caveat emptor

Deleted User wrote: »

Better not to send kids to school for the next four years then.

I'll be very clear. I want my child to go back to school. I can't wait. I'm fvcking sick of Netflix ****e he has to watch while I work.

What I will be doing is waiting and seeing. Letting other people go first.
I did this in the office and within 2 weeks it was closed down.
I can't see a different outcome here.
What I can see is come December the dissent in the country will be such that the gov will be forced to implement zero covid approach like NI and Scotland.

The reinfection news out of Iran won't go down well with health care workers either. The herd immunity is a pipe dream so we'll be in a steady state rolling lockdown versus trying to really contain it from abroad and getting it to zero here.

Can you see the similarities?

Peter Flynt

"Schools will not have to automatically disclose if there is a confirmed case"

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/only-close-contacts-will-be-told-about-covid-19-cases-in-schools-39406571.html

Boggles

Deleted User wrote: »

Better not to send kids to school for the next four years then.

Yeah way better to send them all in under the current "plan" which will accelerate the reseeding of the virus in community which will lead to further national restrictions including school closures. Public Health measures don't apply to over a fifth of population in over crowed confined spaces. #science.

Like I keep saying we know all this things now, but after Wave 2 and just before Wave 3 we may actually cop on and stop cherry picking the science around this novel virus where the vast majority of the country have no immunity.

NPHET have said it will only take a rise of 20 infections per 100,000 and we are back to reintroducing national restrictions.

With margins like that you would imagine we would at least try and get things right.

No, sure twil be grand.

[Deleted User]

HerrKuehn wrote: »

No, their opinion is based on the best available evidence at the time. As the evidence changes, so too might their opinion. But it is an informed opinion. Do you not think he reads all available papers rather than just bits published in newspapers?

Justify the position on masks being ineffective by the WHO and actually harmful by de Gascun then. This was totally against all the available evidence about any respiratory virus that ever existed before. And don't try the weasel words about "no evidence at the time". This killed people. As did moving people from COVID hospitals into nursing homes. Either of these things didn't take a doctorate in epidemiology to know they were bad ideas.

I've got a degree in science; this totally went against best practices. If bridges were built like this they would all collapse.

[Deleted User]

caveat emptor wrote: »

Yeah that was bull. They had a recommendation based on the following.....
We can't procure masks for health care workers

If the general public start buying them it would exasperate the situation.

We should muddy the waters and say they don't work.

That way we have political cover.

let's say they don't work.

This is quite similar situation in my mind.

we need kids to go back to school
for the economy

for people's sanity

for their future education

science is unclear on weather there will be long term damage even to asymptotic cases

that problem won't manifest for years to come

lets open schools.

Better not to send kids to school for the next four years then.

[Deleted User]

is_that_so wrote: »

In the context of not using them properly or touching your face, yep.

Oh pleeeeeaasseeee .... the same is true of handwashing, using a condom etc. Why the particular focus on masks being ineffective?

What he said was totally irresponsible and cost lives.

caveat emptor

is_that_so wrote: »

In the context of not using them properly or touching your face, yep.

Yeah that was bull. They had a recommendation based on the following.....

We can't procure masks for health care workers
If the general public start buying them it would exasperate the situation.
We should muddy the waters and say they don't work.
That way we have political cover.

let's say they don't work.

This is quite similar situation in my mind.

we need kids to go back to school

for the economy
for people's sanity
for their future education
science is unclear on weather there will be long term damage even to asymptotic cases
that problem won't manifest for years to come

lets open schools.

Lillyfae

HerrKuehn wrote: »

There is a lot of amateur opinion on here. But, as is often mentioned, just because parents have been to school or university doesn't mean they know anything about teaching. Likewise how can we expect teachers to have a clue about virology or epidemiology? Surely its best to leave it to the experts rather than using our own bias to pick bits of evidence that support our positions?

This is exactly it. We can all post any data we want about any argument we want to support about Covid-19, but the bottom line is any data about Covid-19 is limited to less than 8 months. That is what the zealots on either side fail to admit/ understand. Any scientific research has to add that as part of the conclusion- we do not know what the long term impact of Covid-19 is. We don't even know what the medium term impact of Covid-19 is

Children have already missed months of education and social development. Chances are, this will go on for years. They have no say whatsoever in this, no real understanding of why it's happening. It's very late, but the government has as requested made a large amount of funding available for upgrades of buildings, cleaning staff and substitution staff in the event of illness in consultation with various stakeholders including teachers unions.

Work has to be done by the individual schools, because it is not now feasible for the DoE to go around to inspect every premises before opening. The BoM should be a representative of the DoE for any school, so it's not even necessary. If you want masks and thermometers, it's up to you to let your principal know this. Every school is different and will require different measures, the solution has to be bespoke whether you agree with that or not.

Alrigghtythen

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

It's trailblazers we need at a time like this

That's exactly what we need Jimmy. We cant be hand holding now because of social distancing. We'll show the way, but the teachers will have to come out from under the bed themselves

lulublue22

HerrKuehn wrote: »

There is a lot of amateur opinion on here. But, as is often mentioned, just because parents have been to school or university doesn't mean they know anything about teaching. Likewise how can we expect teachers to have a clue about virology or epidemiology? Surely its best to leave it to the experts rather than using our own bias to pick bits of evidence that support our positions?
I mean, i'm sure we are not particularly interested in Cillian de Gascun's opinions on junior cert reform are we?

I actually agree re NPHET. However what I would like to see is 1. a clear explanation from NPHET why public health advice re schools is so different to public Health advise across all other sectors. If they are discounting the fairly substantial S K study ( substantial in terms of numbers) can they explain why ? and 2. Can they explain why the dep of ED are discounting evidence that the virus may be airbourne. If they are happy for the dep to do so why is this not reflected in public health guidelines in the community ?

3. Can the gov at least admit that SD in schools under the current plan is hog wash. We are in the middle of a pandemic what was published by the dep of Ed was scandalous pure optics. Using all the buzzwords ! Pods of up to 32 with murra SD . 1000 extra teachers sounds good but as always the devil is in the detail. The pulling of SET to cover illness is a disgrace.

4. We are where we are now the gov wanted a full return. That’s what we have. At this stage I’m more interested in procedures around dealing with outbreaks / clusters in schools.

ETA Due to our class sizes the only way we could have successful implemented SD in schools was a partial return to school. I find it amazing that the general public are not up in arms re class size. Posters will allude to schools on tbe continent returning ( even Leo) but there seems to be no follow through re oh ya they have much smaller classes or it’s a partial return.

Boggles

HerrKuehn wrote: »

No, their opinion is based on the best available evidence at the time.

Well no, their opinion on masks was based on the availability of masks, that's not science that politics.

When you mix the 2 you get Florida and Texas.

Boggles

is_that_so wrote: »

In the context of not using them properly or touching your face, yep.

You can't touch the important parts of your face when you have a mask on. Seriously put a mask on and try it.

Seriously are we going back to February's tailored "science"? :rolleyes:

the corpo

HerrKuehn wrote: »

There is a lot of amateur opinion on here. But, as is often mentioned, just because parents have been to school or university doesn't mean they know anything about teaching. Likewise how can we expect teachers to have a clue about virology or epidemiology? Surely its best to leave it to the experts rather than using our own bias to pick bits of evidence that support our positions?
I mean, i'm sure we are not particularly interested in Cillian de Gascun's opinions on junior cert reform are we?

I guess the problem is when the 'experts' in the Government ignore the actual experts. NPHET were behind on masks, and look similarly behind on airborne transmission, which the WHO are now recognising.

It gave me chills to read that the document states, "Remember, can only be spread by droplets". Absolutely not true, and we have to remember our classrooms are often in worse condition than most other European countries.

copeyhagen

Boggles wrote: »

We need to get rid of this myth, there is a "tiny" chance of kids catching Covid 19.

There is 1000 kids a day in Florida catching it.

Cats can get infected, but kids who are 100% human can't. :rolleyes:

Thankfully kids don't seem to get as sick from it, around a 1-2% hospitalization rate on confirmed cases, unfortunately some have died, but it is rare.

Kids can certainly catch and transmit it, some age groups may be better at doing this then adults according to the South Korean study.

It would be great if you could reopen the schools and keep them open and as an extension the rest of country, but this needs to be based on science and best practice not dribbling ignorance or political convenience.

i didnt mean kids cant catch it medically, i mean its apparently not in the community.

HerrKuehn

Boggles wrote: »

Indeed, wasn't he the guy that said masks were more likely to get you infected than protect you?

Sometimes "experts" hide the truth depending on who pays them.

No, their opinion is based on the best available evidence at the time. As the evidence changes, so too might their opinion. But it is an informed opinion. Do you not think he reads all available papers rather than just bits published in newspapers?

khalessi

HerrKuehn wrote: »

There is a lot of amateur opinion on here. But, as is often mentioned, just because parents have been to school or university doesn't mean they know anything about teaching. Likewise how can we expect teachers to have a clue about virology or epidemiology? Surely its best to leave it to the experts rather than using our own bias to pick bits of evidence that support our positions?
I mean, i'm sure we are not particularly interested in Cillian de Gascun's opinions on junior cert reform are we?

Yes indeed you have a point but through this thread and others teachers have been told they do not know how viruses spread despite witnessing it in class throughout winter months with the spread of a cold ( one of 7 coronaviruses), the flu, winter vomitting bug and even the spread of headlice etc.

Nope we aren't virologists or epidemiologists nor claim to be despite other people's comments. But we do see how germs spread and we do know that the idea of pods has been done for years as we sit children in groups and germs spread. We do know that children in school are good but like to be in close contact with their friends and boundaries are not always remembered

So when we point out that certain guidelines are absent or are not suitable or not fit for use. It is not to avoid coming back to work, every teacher on here wants to go back. It is not to get a payrise or to cause hassle. It is to protect children, our children and yours, and the workforce.

We are trying to highlight the inadequacies so everyone is safe going back. Isn't what people should want a safe return to school instead of looking for ulterior movtives.

Yes there are places like Riand's workplace but measures were put in place and they as he says, knew the risk. I know the risk of returning to school whether big or little and am going back, but it won't stop me highlighting the problems as then hopefully they can be fixed. We should all want a safe environment for our kids.

is_that_so

Boggles wrote: »

Indeed, wasn't he the guy that said masks were more likely to get you infected than protect you?

Sometimes "experts" hide the truth depending on who pays them.

In the context of not using them properly or touching your face, yep.

Boggles

HerrKuehn wrote: »

There is a lot of amateur opinion on here. But, as is often mentioned, just because parents have been to school or university doesn't mean they know anything about teaching. Likewise how can we expect teachers to have a clue about virology or epidemiology? Surely its best to leave it to the experts rather than using our own bias to pick bits of evidence that support our positions?
I mean, i'm sure we are not particularly interested in Cillian de Gascun's opinions on junior cert reform are we?

Indeed, wasn't he the guy that said masks were more likely to get you infected than protect you?

Sometimes "experts" hide the truth depending on who pays them.

is_that_so

Deeec wrote: »

I really want my kids back at school but I want them to be safe - they so want to be back at school. There seems to be more evidence coming out over the last few weeks that there could be longterm affects on the body left by the virus. I think if my children or myself or my husband caught it we would survive as we are all healthy but it scares me that we could be left with lifelong damage because of this virus.

Nobody knows what the long term effects are, that's just guesswork after 6 months of or so of this. Even in 2 years that will not be clear.

jimmytwotimes 2013

HerrKuehn wrote: »

There is a lot of amateur opinion on here. But, as is often mentioned, just because parents have been to school or university doesn't mean they know anything about teaching. Likewise how can we expect teachers to have a clue about virology or epidemiology? Surely its best to leave it to the experts rather than using our own bias to pick bits of evidence that support our positions?
I mean, i'm sure we are not particularly interested in Cillian de Gascun's opinions on junior cert reform are we?

No point discussing anything really so. Shut down boards.

Are people not capable of observing what's being implemented in other places to try curb the spread of the virus and look to implement similar here?

Deeec

copeyhagen wrote: »

one of my kids is in school and am all for him to go back in Sept, hes going into first class now and i can see the slight decline in his reading and social skills since March. he needs to get back to learning and proepr structure asap.

why are people worried about the tiny chance of kids catching it? genuine question? it does no harm at all to kids, are you afraid of the kids bringing it home and the possibility of it getting to the grandparents or something?

I really want my kids back at school but I want them to be safe - they so want to be back at school. There seems to be more evidence coming out over the last few weeks that there could be longterm affects on the body left by the virus. I think if my children or myself or my husband caught it we would survive as we are all healthy but it scares me that we could be left with lifelong damage because of this virus.

Boggles

copeyhagen wrote: »

one of my kids is in school and am all for him to go back in Sept, hes going into first class now and i can see the slight decline in his reading and social skills since March. he needs to get back to learning and proepr structure asap.

why are people worried about the tiny chance of kids catching it? genuine question? it does no harm at all to kids, are you afraid of the kids bringing it home and the possibility of it getting to the grandparents or something?

We need to get rid of this myth, there is a "tiny" chance of kids catching Covid 19.

There is 1000 kids a day in Florida catching it.

Cats can get infected, but kids who are 100% human can't. :rolleyes:

Thankfully kids don't seem to get as sick from it, around a 1-2% hospitalization rate on confirmed cases, unfortunately some have died, but it is rare.

Kids can certainly catch and transmit it, some age groups may be better at doing this then adults according to the South Korean study.

It would be great if you could reopen the schools and keep them open and as an extension the rest of country, but this needs to be based on science and best practice not dribbling ignorance or political convenience.

is_that_so

HerrKuehn wrote: »

There is a lot of amateur opinion on here. But, as is often mentioned, just because parents have been to school or university doesn't mean they know anything about teaching. Likewise how can we expect teachers to have a clue about virology or epidemiology? Surely its best to leave it to the experts rather than using our own bias to pick bits of evidence that support our positions?
I mean, i'm sure we are not particularly interested in Cillian de Gascun's opinions on junior cert reform are we?

The "experts" in this case means the DES, so one can understand concerns. It's the tardiness of the solution and the sense that it is only half-cooked that is more frustrating.

titan18

Deleted User wrote:

Factory where I work has about 150 people working in one area at any one time. Social distancing measures have been put in place where possible, but many people still sit adjacent to others. People have been placed in â€œpodsâ€ so any transmission remains in that group, but everyone, including employees impacted acknowledge that risk remains even though the company has done everything in its power. The only solution to ensure social distancing would be major redesign of manufacturing area requiring up to six months. 6 months during which the 40,000 live saving medical devices being implanted in patients every week are not being manufactured. People have accepted the remaining risk as they know the products are needed. Just like we need to accept a risk in schools also as children need to be educated. While I am very hopeful of vaccine being available next year we cannot depend on it and wait. We need to start organising our systems on the basis of no vaccine becoming available and us having to live with it for four years. Whatâ€™s the alternative, donâ€™t educate kids for 4 years?

Difference there is you say the company has done everything in its power. It really looks like the government haven't in relation to schools.