How will schools be able to go back in September?

ChelseaRentBoy

Deleted User wrote: »

Vast majority of infections are through droplets. Some do happen through air transmission, however if we prevent as many of the droplet transmissions as possible, we stay ahead of the virus. It has to be accepted, transmissions will occur, people will get sick, people will die. Some schools will also close due to clusters.

Life needs to go on though, minimising risk but accepting some will remain

Teachers aren't going to put themselves at risk. Offices and places of business aren't stuffing 30 people into small rooms but it's okay for schools?

mcsean2163

Grandeeod wrote: »

When are teachers and parents going to utter the word, STOP?

Very unlikely parents would utter that. We're not living a hundred years ago, being out of school is not good for children.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1105061/coronavirus-deaths-by-region-in-italy/

By July 14th, 86 people in Italy had died of COVID-19 under the age of 40. For that age bracket, there is relatively little risk of death etc

It'll be a tough call for a lot of teachers I guess, especially as other family members may be at risk. However, I expect healthcare workers, who make up one third of all infections, will have very limited sympathy.

s1ippy

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1282666347982462976.html

Just some points here about schools reopening.

Thread on children, schools and Covid-19.

Based on the current research, there are two points which are worth remembering:
1. Children contract the virus at the same rate as adults.
2. The virus has, and will, spread in schools.
This study from China found that “children were as likely to be infected as adults (infection rate 7·4% in children <10 years vs population average of 6·6%).”

...

This study from Switzerland found that “no differences in seroprevalence between children and middle age adults are observed”.

…

This study from the UK found that “There is no evidence of differences in the proportions testing positive between the age categories 2 to 19, 20 to 49, 50 to 69 and 70 years and over.”

…

This study from Germany notes that “there is little evidence from the present study to support suggestions that children may not be as infectious as adults. “

…

Israel has entered a second lockdown. In testimony to the Israeli parliament, Israel’s deputy Director of Public Health Services , Dr. Udi Kliner, said that “schools, not restaurants or gyms, turned out to be the country’s worst mega-infectors.”

…

A study from the United States shows that child to child, adult to adult, adult to child, and child to adult transmission does occur.
Characteristics of Hospitalized Pediatric Coronavirus Disease 2019 Cases in Chicago, Illinois, March–April 2020:

...

In Sweden, “The relatively high rate (of antibodies) in children suggests there may have been significant spread in schools.”
How Sweden wasted a ‘rare opportunity’ to study coronavirus in schools
One of the few countries to keep primary schools open failed to collect data on children’s role in pandemic
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/05/how-sweden-wasted-rare-opportunity-study-coronavirus-schools

That last one there is particularly baffling.

In Australia, a school is said to be at the centre of the recent outbreak in Melbourne.
Coronavirus cluster at Melbourne's Al-Taqwa College grows to 113, but how it started remains a mystery - ABC News

Al-Taqwa College, in Melbourne's outer west, has become the site of a coronavirus cluster which is now linked to 113 cases. Principal Omar Hallak says the outbreak was "out of our hands".
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-09/al-taqwa-college-coronavirus-covid19-cluster-melbourne-truganina/12437584

...

One of the drivers of the recent lockdown in Leicester was spread in schools. Matt Hancock, the UK’s Health Secretary, said that “There are a lot of U18s who have tested positive... the safest thing we can do is close the schools”.

Hancock explains comment that Leicester kids had were 'highly impacted' by virus
A large number of under 18-year-olds have tested positive for Covid-19 in Leicester
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/matt-hancock-local-lockdown-leicester-18511786

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Texas has seen 1,300 cases in child care centres since they reopened.
Texas coronavirus cases top 1,300 from child care facilities alone

Texas, along with 31 other states, is dealing with a new influx of coronavirus cases -- leaving many parents in limbo about when or whether to send children back to day care.
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/07/06/health/texas-coronavirus-cases-child-care-facilities/index.html

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In Syracuse, "At least 16 children and adults have come down with the coronavirus after it spread from contact at a DeWitt family in-home child care."

At least 16 sick after coronavirus exposure at DeWitt in-home day care: ‘Take this seriously ... stay home if sick at all'
People in four families became sick after a child with the virus was brought into an in-home child care in DeWitt.
https://www.syracuse.com/coronavirus/2020/07/at-least-16-sick-after-coronavirus-exposure-at-dewitt-in-home-day-care-take-this-seriously-stay-home-if-sick-at-all.html

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"Victoria's Chief Health Officer has warned that extensive testing in the state is revealing that child-to-child transmission of COVID-19 is "more apparent" than first thought"

amp.9news.com.au/article/a6c62d…
The evidence is mounting.

"It is believed to have started with a grade six teacher, who is thought to have contracted the virus at a family gathering, and it has spread rapidly to staff and students.

At this stage, 147 cases have been linked to the school."

...

73 out of 400 kids at a school disco test positive.


Kids over 10 "Have the same risk profile [as adults]"

"They do spread the virus."

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Experts warn against ‘false sense of security’ as the number of children with COVID-19 increases in Dallas County
The number of children infected with coronavirus in Dallas County has increased steadily as the summer has worn on — and with classes soon to resume...
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/2020/07/20/experts-warn-against-false-sense-of-security-as-the-number-of-children-with-covid-19-increases-in-dallas-county/

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Cases in children in Germany have increased by 50% since they reopened schools.

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What Scientists Know About How Children Spread COVID-19
As communities struggle with the decision over whether to open up schools, the research so far offers unsatisfying answers
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/what-scientists-know-about-how-children-spread-covid-19-180975396/

I presumed the government would review this sort of information and put measures in place to protect teachers, but I suppose if there's a bad education system, people stay subjugated and silent so that suits them. Just look at the UK and US, they have awful investment in education and they're absolutely f'd.

BlazingSaddler

Is there likely to be temperature checks in the mornings, any child with a high temp moved to an isolation room and then home?

wirelessdude01

BlazingSaddler wrote: »

Is there likely to be temperature checks in the mornings, any child with a high temp moved to an isolation room and then home?

Don't think it's mentioned in the document.

It's a requirement for the parents of the kids on my team to self certify that they have taken a temperature before they attend any activity. Has to be sent onto the Covid officer.

Boggles

Deleted User wrote: »

Vast majority of infections are through droplets. Some do happen through air transmission

I don't believe you.

Remember that the virus is spread by droplets and is not airborne so physical separation is enough to reduce the risk of spread to others even if they are in the

Why would they lie?

The isolation area does not have to be a room but if it is not a room it should be 2m away from others in the room;

No isolation room? Be grand!

ldy4mxonucwsq6

BlazingSaddler wrote: »

Is there likely to be temperature checks in the mornings, any child with a high temp moved to an isolation room and then home?

Nope, not a requirement anyway.

Supercell

In China (Wuhan and Guangzhou where my wife has family relations) the schools there have a couple of teachers at the front entrance taking temperatures of the kids with a forehead thermometer gun, any child with a fever is simply not allowed entrance and has to go back home. All parents were made aware of this in advance of the schools restarting and there has been no pushback.
Only takes a second to take the temperature, don't know why that isn't in the plan here, seems like common sense to me, don't need to be a doctor to read a number on a digital thermometer.

khalessi

Supercell wrote: »

In China (Wuhan and Guangzhou where my wife has family relations) the schools there have a couple of teachers at the front entrance taking temperatures of the kids with a forehead thermometer gun, any child with a fever is simply not allowed entrance and has to go back home. All parents were made aware of this in advance of the schools restarting and there has been no pushback.
Only takes a second to take the temperature, don't know why that isn't in the plan here, seems like common sense to me, don't need to be a doctor to read a number on a digital thermometer.

I'm guessing because they would have to invest in thermometers, they hate spending money, they would have to be responsible, remember they will not make it mandatory for masks as they have to buy them and it indicates a level of reponsibility by Dept but they are ok oif we buy our own, and they are afraid of pushback from parents as our parents arent as cooperative as Chineses parents.

wirelessdude01

Supercell wrote: »

Only takes a second to take the temperature, don't know why that isn't in the plan here, seems like common sense to me, don't need to be a doctor to read a number on a digital thermometer.

Pure and simple it implies a level of responsibility.

gifted

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Pure and simple it implies a level of responsibility.

And accountability.......why should that be put back on teachers?

caveat emptor

s1ippy wrote: »

......

Just some points here about schools reopening.

That last one there is particularly baffling.

I presumed the government would review this sort of information and put measures in place to protect teachers, but I suppose if there's a bad education system, people stay subjugated and silent so that suits them. Just look at the UK and US, they have awful investment in education and they're absolutely f'd.

Jesus Christ. You would think they would have.
Instead there'll be people on hear saying "no evidence" even though it's clear as day it will lead to wider community spread.

The gov will have a bigger issue than they realise if people's kids start getting sick. Economy will be torpedoed either way. Rolling lockdowns will occur. People can't even go to a birthday party without having to quarantine.

We are trying to have our cake and eat it. The only countries that tried to do that failed. If we actually tried to get it to zero then it would be safe. No we want our summer holidays,
our air lines to keep running,
pubs to reopen,
offices to go back,
tourism to be generating income
and our kids to be safe in school.

You know when you just want to much off Santa? Yeah that's territory we are in.

Scotland an Northern Ireland going for zero tolerance approach.

We could have nearly everything if we adopted that approach.

We'll have to have a ****storm in November for the political will to be generated. Meanwhile how many will die or get long term effects needlessly.

We were here before with masks. Horse **** as usual.

Deeec

I read this article this morning https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/parents-forced-to-stay-at-home-risk-losing-job-39406577.html.
It states parents who stay at home because their children are showing symptoms risk losing their jobs.

This is going to become a big issue. The guidance is clear - if your child is showing any symptoms you keep them home for school ( which is absolutely correct). However if parents (some) risk losing their job they are just going to send the children to school (sick). The government need to introduce some fair legislation to prevent employers doing this. I also know it is going to be hard for business's to operate if half their staff are at home looking after their kids.

Alrigghtythen

s1ippy wrote: »

Since yesterday morning, I now know five teachers who have quit. Three special needs needs, one primary and one secondary.

The positive from this may be that we get rid of the inflexible deadwood who refuse to adapt from the system

cro1234

Supercell wrote: »

In China (Wuhan and Guangzhou where my wife has family relations) the schools there have a couple of teachers at the front entrance taking temperatures of the kids with a forehead thermometer gun, any child with a fever is simply not allowed entrance and has to go back home. All parents were made aware of this in advance of the schools restarting and there has been no pushback.
Only takes a second to take the temperature, don't know why that isn't in the plan here, seems like common sense to me, don't need to be a doctor to read a number on a digital thermometer.

I'm not sure how it is in Ireland but from where I'm coming from (Croatia) thermometer guns are not reliable. Most of them are not working how they should.. Probably it is related to buying cheap China guns to save as much money as you can (goverment..).

Also a lot of hospitals and other institutions have stopped measuring temperatures because it just don't work, they just pretend that they are measuring your temperature at entrance.

caveat emptor

https://twitter.com/devisridhar/status/1288023778069565440?s=20

downthemiddle

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

The positive from this may be that we get rid of the inflexible deadwood who refuse to adapt from the system

Or you get rid of experienced teachers who still have huge expertise to offer because they are sick and tired of holding an underfunded and under resourced system together. They can see this document is not fit for purpose and after a lifetime dedicated to teaching it is one system failure too many.

is_that_so

caveat emptor wrote: »

https://twitter.com/devisridhar/status/1288023778069565440?s=20

Where we are at is a more realistic target. Zero Covid requires far too much in the way of restrictions and controls and a vaccine will be here faster.

ChelseaRentBoy

ChelseaRentBoy wrote: »

Teachers aren't going to put themselves at risk. Offices and places of business aren't stuffing 30 people into small rooms but it's okay for schools?

Factory where I work has about 150 people working in one area at any one time. Social distancing measures have been put in place where possible, but many people still sit adjacent to others. People have been placed in “pods” so any transmission remains in that group, but everyone, including employees impacted acknowledge that risk remains even though the company has done everything in its power. The only solution to ensure social distancing would be major redesign of manufacturing area requiring up to six months. 6 months during which the 40,000 live saving medical devices being implanted in patients every week are not being manufactured. People have accepted the remaining risk as they know the products are needed. Just like we need to accept a risk in schools also as children need to be educated. While I am very hopeful of vaccine being available next year we cannot depend on it and wait. We need to start organising our systems on the basis of no vaccine becoming available and us having to live with it for four years. What’s the alternative, don’t educate kids for 4 years?

downthemiddle

is_that_so wrote: »

Where we are at is a more realistic target. Zero Covid requires far too much in the way of restrictions and controls and a vaccine will be here faster.

There were 27 cases in Ireland the day we closed schools. Yesterday there were 40 but it is safe to reopen schools.

wirelessdude01

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Factory where I work has about 150 people working in one area at any one time. Social distancing measures have been put in place where possible, but many people still sit adjacent to others. People have been placed in “pods” so any transmission remains in that group, but everyone, including employees impacted acknowledge that risk remains even though the company has done everything in its power. The only solution to ensure social distancing would be major redesign of manufacturing area requiring up to six months. 6 months during which the 40,000 live saving medical devices being implanted in patients every week are not being manufactured. People have accepted the remaining risk as they know the products are needed. Just like we need to accept a risk in schools also as children need to be educated. While I am very hopeful of vaccine being available next year we cannot depend on it and wait. We need to start organising our systems on the basis of no vaccine becoming available and us having to live with it for four years. What’s the alternative, don’t educate kids for 4 years?

Do ye wear masks?

Deeec

Deleted User wrote: »

Factory where I work has about 150 people working in one area at any one time. Social distancing measures have been put in place where possible, but many people still sit adjacent to others. People have been placed in “pods” so any transmission remains in that group, but everyone, including employees impacted acknowledge that risk remains even though the company has done everything in its power. The only solution to ensure social distancing would be major redesign of manufacturing area requiring up to six months. 6 months during which the 40,000 live saving medical devices being implanted in patients every week are not being manufactured. People have accepted the remaining risk as they know the products are needed. Just like we need to accept a risk in schools also as children need to be educated. While I am very hopeful of vaccine being available next year we cannot depend on it and wait. We need to start organising our systems on the basis of no vaccine becoming available and us having to live with it for four years. What’s the alternative, don’t educate kids for 4 years?

I agree with you there is a lot of workplaces where social distancing just isnt possible. There is also workplaces with minimum or no covid procedures in place. I think the issue is with schools though is that children mix completley different to adults with creates alot of issues - hugging each other, handholding, sharing drinks , not hand washing etc.

Supercell

cro1234 wrote: »

I'm not sure how it is in Ireland but from where I'm coming from (Croatia) thermometer guns are not reliable. Most of them are not working how they should.. Probably it is related to buying cheap China guns to save as much money as you can (goverment..).

Also a lot of hospitals and other institutions have stopped measuring temperatures because it just don't work, they just pretend that they are measuring your temperature at entrance.

That may be the case, but as in everything some models will be better than others.
I would imagine the very fact that parents know that their kid is going to have their temperature taken at the entrance means many don't even try to send their sick kid in.
Its about protecting the teachers as much as anything. At our kids school there is always a couple of teachers at the school entrance when they open the gates keeping an eye on things, staggered starts and i don't really see any problem at all with this. Though as Khalessi has already said it's all about money so not going to happen though surely would prevent some outbreaks.

wirelessdude01

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Do ye wear masks?

Not mandatory in manufacturing areas due to nature of work. It is in canteen etc

Bobtheman

Deleted User wrote: »

Factory where I work has about 150 people working in one area at any one time. Social distancing measures have been put in place where possible, but many people still sit adjacent to others. People have been placed in “pods” so any transmission remains in that group, but everyone, including employees impacted acknowledge that risk remains even though the company has done everything in its power. The only solution to ensure social distancing would be major redesign of manufacturing area requiring up to six months. 6 months during which the 40,000 live saving medical devices being implanted in patients every week are not being manufactured. People have accepted the remaining risk as they know the products are needed. Just like we need to accept a risk in schools also as children need to be educated. While I am very hopeful of vaccine being available next year we cannot depend on it and wait. We need to start organising our systems on the basis of no vaccine becoming available and us having to live with it for four years. What’s the alternative, don’t educate kids for 4 years?

Fair dues to you all.

downthemiddle

downthemiddle wrote: »

There were 27 cases in Ireland the day we closed schools. Yesterday there were 40 but it is safe to reopen schools.

There was virtually no testing when the schools were closed so that 27 was more like 2700.

iamwhoiam

downthemiddle wrote: »

There were 27 cases in Ireland the day we closed schools. Yesterday there were 40 but it is safe to reopen schools.

Very different times . They had no idea how it was spreading , no testing in place , ICU to be organised , masks to be sourced , hospitals to be organised . They no clue how many cases there were as testing was barely functional and at that time word was that children were the SUPERSPREADERS and were the real baddy in the saga .
They had little information and that was somehow spread as a fact , actually with very little basis but it became a fact somehow

caveat emptor

is_that_so wrote: »

Where we are at is a more realistic target. Zero Covid requires far too much in the way of restrictions and controls and a vaccine will be here faster.

Ok I take your point.
Let's check back in November to remember.
I think the too much part will become just enough.
Remember our conversations about masks? You were really on the wrong side of that.

Have you updated your opinion since?

I'll keep going with what I read off scientists thanks.

is_that_so wrote: »

I doubt we will be wearing them as the NEPHT/CMO position is very clear on it.
No, I'm not missing the point, we have lots and lost of evidence about them. For masks we have beliefs, suppositions and "weak evidence". Other factors work a lot more effectively.

If they are such a key element in fighting this why do so few countries have it as mandatory policy to wear them?

jimmytwotimes 2013

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

The positive from this may be that we get rid of the inflexible deadwood who refuse to adapt from the system

It's trailblazers we need at a time like this

is_that_so

downthemiddle wrote: »

There were 27 cases in Ireland the day we closed schools. Yesterday there were 40 but it is safe to reopen schools.

That was 27 and rising very fast, now it's stable. It's best to ignore the daily totals, the 7 day average is 18-19 cases.