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Child Item

How will schools be able to go back in September?

shoppergal

Just wondering if anyone can give any insight into how schools could safely re-open in September?

Everyone I'm talking to is saying they won't be back until September but in my head I'm wondering how they'll re-open even in September? The virus will still be there with a vaccine still months away at that stage.

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HerrKuehn

There is a lot of amateur opinion on here. But, as is often mentioned, just because parents have been to school or university doesn't mean they know anything about teaching. Likewise how can we expect teachers to have a clue about virology or epidemiology? Surely its best to leave it to the experts rather than using our own bias to pick bits of evidence that support our positions?
I mean, i'm sure we are not particularly interested in Cillian de Gascun's opinions on junior cert reform are we?

Boggles

The ECDC are set to release their recommendations on schools reopening across Europe in the next week or 2. (sure what's the rush)

NPHET take the majority of their advice from the ECDC.

Will be interesting to see how their advice align with the "plan" and if it differs how NPHET will be able to sign off on it.

Finland in collaboration with the ECDC implemented a plan to get kids under 13 back to school in May.

Our "plan" has several copy and pastes from that document, with some pretty worrying omissions.

Mainly pupil teacher ratios and pods, or "cohorts" as they call them.

They acknowledged that kids in the first 4 years of school will struggle to social distance to combat that they recommend a maximum of 15 kids per teacher in their own "cohort".

How does that compare to the first 4 years of school in this country in terms of ratio?

copeyhagen

one of my kids is in school and am all for him to go back in Sept, hes going into first class now and i can see the slight decline in his reading and social skills since March. he needs to get back to learning and proepr structure asap.

why are people worried about the tiny chance of kids catching it? genuine question? it does no harm at all to kids, are you afraid of the kids bringing it home and the possibility of it getting to the grandparents or something?

[Deleted User]

is_that_so wrote: »

Yeah, I was just as you and many others have been wrong many times during this.

There has been so much bad reporting on this and the WHO have made a dogs dinner of it too, reporting some things that seemed very likely to help like masks having "no evidence" to support it and others like handwashing being a panacea while it also at the time had equally "no evidence".

[Deleted User]

Benimar wrote: »

What about those that haven’t, like my kids? Plenty more in the same boat and they are now all going to get zero protection on return to school.

Well they can continue not hugging and handholding and stay away from the hugging and handholding set. They are probably not part of that "in" group anyway.

is_that_so

caveat emptor wrote: »

Ok I take your point.
Let's check back in November to remember.
I think the too much part will become just enough.
Remember our conversations about masks? You were really on the wrong side of that.

Have you updated your opinion since?

I'll keep going with what I read off scientists thanks.

Yeah, I was just as you and many others have been wrong many times during this.

Benimar

Deleted User wrote: »

Those doing that have been doing that throughout the lockdown too.

What about those that haven’t, like my kids? Plenty more in the same boat and they are now all going to get zero protection on return to school.

[Deleted User]

caveat emptor wrote: »

Ok I take your point.
Let's check back in November to remember.
I think the too much part will become just enough.
Remember our conversations about masks? You were really on the wrong side of that.

Have you updated your opinion since?

I'll keep going with what I read off scientists thanks.

I don't know which sides you were both on about masks, but in fairness, the advice around those was hugely conflicting and still is - either they help or they don't, and if they help they should be mandatory indoors.

[Deleted User]

Supercell wrote: »

That may be the case, but as in everything some models will be better than others.
I would imagine the very fact that parents know that their kid is going to have their temperature taken at the entrance means many don't even try to send their sick kid in.
Its about protecting the teachers as much as anything. At our kids school there is always a couple of teachers at the school entrance when they open the gates keeping an eye on things, staggered starts and i don't really see any problem at all with this. Though as Khalessi has already said it's all about money so not going to happen though surely would prevent some outbreaks.

Children are also the least impacted. The important thing is to maintain good information on contacts etc so trace and isolate can be completed

[Deleted User]

Deeec wrote: »

I agree with you there is a lot of workplaces where social distancing just isnt possible. There is also workplaces with minimum or no covid procedures in place. I think the issue is with schools though is that children mix completley different to adults with creates alot of issues - hugging each other, handholding, sharing drinks , not hand washing etc.

Those doing that have been doing that throughout the lockdown too. Completely off topic, but all this hugging and handholding etc is a relatively new phenomenon in Ireland, at least among non romantically involved teens.

is_that_so

downthemiddle wrote: »

There were 27 cases in Ireland the day we closed schools. Yesterday there were 40 but it is safe to reopen schools.

That was 27 and rising very fast, now it's stable. It's best to ignore the daily totals, the 7 day average is 18-19 cases.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

The positive from this may be that we get rid of the inflexible deadwood who refuse to adapt from the system

It's trailblazers we need at a time like this

caveat emptor

is_that_so wrote: »

Where we are at is a more realistic target. Zero Covid requires far too much in the way of restrictions and controls and a vaccine will be here faster.

Ok I take your point.
Let's check back in November to remember.
I think the too much part will become just enough.
Remember our conversations about masks? You were really on the wrong side of that.

Have you updated your opinion since?

I'll keep going with what I read off scientists thanks.

is_that_so wrote: »

I doubt we will be wearing them as the NEPHT/CMO position is very clear on it.
No, I'm not missing the point, we have lots and lost of evidence about them. For masks we have beliefs, suppositions and "weak evidence". Other factors work a lot more effectively.

If they are such a key element in fighting this why do so few countries have it as mandatory policy to wear them?

iamwhoiam

downthemiddle wrote: »

There were 27 cases in Ireland the day we closed schools. Yesterday there were 40 but it is safe to reopen schools.

Very different times . They had no idea how it was spreading , no testing in place , ICU to be organised , masks to be sourced , hospitals to be organised . They no clue how many cases there were as testing was barely functional and at that time word was that children were the SUPERSPREADERS and were the real baddy in the saga .
They had little information and that was somehow spread as a fact , actually with very little basis but it became a fact somehow

[Deleted User]

downthemiddle wrote: »

There were 27 cases in Ireland the day we closed schools. Yesterday there were 40 but it is safe to reopen schools.

There was virtually no testing when the schools were closed so that 27 was more like 2700.

Bobtheman

Deleted User wrote: »

Factory where I work has about 150 people working in one area at any one time. Social distancing measures have been put in place where possible, but many people still sit adjacent to others. People have been placed in “pods” so any transmission remains in that group, but everyone, including employees impacted acknowledge that risk remains even though the company has done everything in its power. The only solution to ensure social distancing would be major redesign of manufacturing area requiring up to six months. 6 months during which the 40,000 live saving medical devices being implanted in patients every week are not being manufactured. People have accepted the remaining risk as they know the products are needed. Just like we need to accept a risk in schools also as children need to be educated. While I am very hopeful of vaccine being available next year we cannot depend on it and wait. We need to start organising our systems on the basis of no vaccine becoming available and us having to live with it for four years. What’s the alternative, don’t educate kids for 4 years?

Fair dues to you all.

[Deleted User]

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Do ye wear masks?

Not mandatory in manufacturing areas due to nature of work. It is in canteen etc

Supercell

cro1234 wrote: »

I'm not sure how it is in Ireland but from where I'm coming from (Croatia) thermometer guns are not reliable. Most of them are not working how they should.. Probably it is related to buying cheap China guns to save as much money as you can (goverment..).

Also a lot of hospitals and other institutions have stopped measuring temperatures because it just don't work, they just pretend that they are measuring your temperature at entrance.

That may be the case, but as in everything some models will be better than others.
I would imagine the very fact that parents know that their kid is going to have their temperature taken at the entrance means many don't even try to send their sick kid in.
Its about protecting the teachers as much as anything. At our kids school there is always a couple of teachers at the school entrance when they open the gates keeping an eye on things, staggered starts and i don't really see any problem at all with this. Though as Khalessi has already said it's all about money so not going to happen though surely would prevent some outbreaks.

Deeec

Deleted User wrote: »

Factory where I work has about 150 people working in one area at any one time. Social distancing measures have been put in place where possible, but many people still sit adjacent to others. People have been placed in “pods” so any transmission remains in that group, but everyone, including employees impacted acknowledge that risk remains even though the company has done everything in its power. The only solution to ensure social distancing would be major redesign of manufacturing area requiring up to six months. 6 months during which the 40,000 live saving medical devices being implanted in patients every week are not being manufactured. People have accepted the remaining risk as they know the products are needed. Just like we need to accept a risk in schools also as children need to be educated. While I am very hopeful of vaccine being available next year we cannot depend on it and wait. We need to start organising our systems on the basis of no vaccine becoming available and us having to live with it for four years. What’s the alternative, don’t educate kids for 4 years?

I agree with you there is a lot of workplaces where social distancing just isnt possible. There is also workplaces with minimum or no covid procedures in place. I think the issue is with schools though is that children mix completley different to adults with creates alot of issues - hugging each other, handholding, sharing drinks , not hand washing etc.

wirelessdude01

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Factory where I work has about 150 people working in one area at any one time. Social distancing measures have been put in place where possible, but many people still sit adjacent to others. People have been placed in “pods” so any transmission remains in that group, but everyone, including employees impacted acknowledge that risk remains even though the company has done everything in its power. The only solution to ensure social distancing would be major redesign of manufacturing area requiring up to six months. 6 months during which the 40,000 live saving medical devices being implanted in patients every week are not being manufactured. People have accepted the remaining risk as they know the products are needed. Just like we need to accept a risk in schools also as children need to be educated. While I am very hopeful of vaccine being available next year we cannot depend on it and wait. We need to start organising our systems on the basis of no vaccine becoming available and us having to live with it for four years. What’s the alternative, don’t educate kids for 4 years?

Do ye wear masks?

downthemiddle

is_that_so wrote: »

Where we are at is a more realistic target. Zero Covid requires far too much in the way of restrictions and controls and a vaccine will be here faster.

There were 27 cases in Ireland the day we closed schools. Yesterday there were 40 but it is safe to reopen schools.

[Deleted User]

ChelseaRentBoy wrote: »

Teachers aren't going to put themselves at risk. Offices and places of business aren't stuffing 30 people into small rooms but it's okay for schools?

Factory where I work has about 150 people working in one area at any one time. Social distancing measures have been put in place where possible, but many people still sit adjacent to others. People have been placed in “pods” so any transmission remains in that group, but everyone, including employees impacted acknowledge that risk remains even though the company has done everything in its power. The only solution to ensure social distancing would be major redesign of manufacturing area requiring up to six months. 6 months during which the 40,000 live saving medical devices being implanted in patients every week are not being manufactured. People have accepted the remaining risk as they know the products are needed. Just like we need to accept a risk in schools also as children need to be educated. While I am very hopeful of vaccine being available next year we cannot depend on it and wait. We need to start organising our systems on the basis of no vaccine becoming available and us having to live with it for four years. What’s the alternative, don’t educate kids for 4 years?

is_that_so

caveat emptor wrote: »

https://twitter.com/devisridhar/status/1288023778069565440?s=20

Where we are at is a more realistic target. Zero Covid requires far too much in the way of restrictions and controls and a vaccine will be here faster.

downthemiddle

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

The positive from this may be that we get rid of the inflexible deadwood who refuse to adapt from the system

Or you get rid of experienced teachers who still have huge expertise to offer because they are sick and tired of holding an underfunded and under resourced system together. They can see this document is not fit for purpose and after a lifetime dedicated to teaching it is one system failure too many.

caveat emptor

https://twitter.com/devisridhar/status/1288023778069565440?s=20

cro1234

Supercell wrote: »

In China (Wuhan and Guangzhou where my wife has family relations) the schools there have a couple of teachers at the front entrance taking temperatures of the kids with a forehead thermometer gun, any child with a fever is simply not allowed entrance and has to go back home. All parents were made aware of this in advance of the schools restarting and there has been no pushback.
Only takes a second to take the temperature, don't know why that isn't in the plan here, seems like common sense to me, don't need to be a doctor to read a number on a digital thermometer.

I'm not sure how it is in Ireland but from where I'm coming from (Croatia) thermometer guns are not reliable. Most of them are not working how they should.. Probably it is related to buying cheap China guns to save as much money as you can (goverment..).

Also a lot of hospitals and other institutions have stopped measuring temperatures because it just don't work, they just pretend that they are measuring your temperature at entrance.

Alrigghtythen

s1ippy wrote: »

Since yesterday morning, I now know five teachers who have quit. Three special needs needs, one primary and one secondary.

The positive from this may be that we get rid of the inflexible deadwood who refuse to adapt from the system

Deeec

I read this article this morning https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/parents-forced-to-stay-at-home-risk-losing-job-39406577.html.
It states parents who stay at home because their children are showing symptoms risk losing their jobs.

This is going to become a big issue. The guidance is clear - if your child is showing any symptoms you keep them home for school ( which is absolutely correct). However if parents (some) risk losing their job they are just going to send the children to school (sick). The government need to introduce some fair legislation to prevent employers doing this. I also know it is going to be hard for business's to operate if half their staff are at home looking after their kids.

caveat emptor

s1ippy wrote: »

......

Just some points here about schools reopening.

That last one there is particularly baffling.

I presumed the government would review this sort of information and put measures in place to protect teachers, but I suppose if there's a bad education system, people stay subjugated and silent so that suits them. Just look at the UK and US, they have awful investment in education and they're absolutely f'd.

Jesus Christ. You would think they would have.
Instead there'll be people on hear saying "no evidence" even though it's clear as day it will lead to wider community spread.

The gov will have a bigger issue than they realise if people's kids start getting sick. Economy will be torpedoed either way. Rolling lockdowns will occur. People can't even go to a birthday party without having to quarantine.

We are trying to have our cake and eat it. The only countries that tried to do that failed. If we actually tried to get it to zero then it would be safe. No we want our summer holidays,
our air lines to keep running,
pubs to reopen,
offices to go back,
tourism to be generating income
and our kids to be safe in school.

You know when you just want to much off Santa? Yeah that's territory we are in.

Scotland an Northern Ireland going for zero tolerance approach.

We could have nearly everything if we adopted that approach.

We'll have to have a ****storm in November for the political will to be generated. Meanwhile how many will die or get long term effects needlessly.

We were here before with masks. Horse **** as usual.

gifted

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Pure and simple it implies a level of responsibility.

And accountability.......why should that be put back on teachers?