How will schools be able to go back in September?

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

Does that not again come back to the Dept? They have the power to issue circulars that all schools must abide by. No doubt the coverage in schools varied but without explicit instructions from the Dept it was bound to happen. Same will happen again if no firm guidelines and funding appear for September reopening.

Yes, and every teacher in the country should have a school issued device for f sake. It's just backward!

Lillyfae wrote: »

Genuinely, I appreciate you and a few others for your rationale. But parents who had engagement and those who had none are at their wits end. If everyone had given the same effort throughout all this I don't think parents would be as afraid of blended learning as they are. Some on here would have you believe they were online teaching and correcting from 7am to 9pm every single day and that all of their colleagues were putting in exactly the same. That is patently not true, and the total denial of it really got up my nose.

Apologies if I've been a bit short at times, just as some of the teachers on here have a nasty attitude towards parents (and the public in general), the number who are just trying to get back to work and going above in beyond in order to do so far exceeds. I hope your concerns and conditions are properly addressed as soon as possible. And since I don't have Twitter my opinions are my own, thanks for educating me at times aswell. Lifelong learning, wha?

Does that not again come back to the Dept? They have the power to issue circulars that all schools must abide by. No doubt the coverage in schools varied but without explicit instructions from the Dept it was bound to happen. Same will happen again if no firm guidelines and funding appear for September reopening.

daithi7

Imho, nphet & the dept have made a mess of this from the off.

Firstly, kids under 12 aren't a covid risk at all (of either getting the infection or spreading it), therefore all primary schools should just go back pretty much as is, bar maybe controlling adults access to the school & extra hand sanitation and a bit of desk spacing.

Secondary students carry more testosterone & therfore have to be managed better and social distancing, extra hygiene, restricting visitors and facemasks should be the norm imho.

Then particularly at risk kids should be facilitated by video link and remote learning tools.

Job done, get back to school and less prevarication and pandering to the stuck in the mud public sector unions.... they're only ever after another pay day anyway!!

Smacruairi wrote: »

I agree, but these conversations are not being had by calm heads on a rational basis. You only have to look at the debaclr of the pubs open.. And now everyone throwing a fit because the guidelines aren't being followed. We have brought in a risk assessment medical officer to look at the school next week for distances etc. You don't stick that on your website for all to see until he makes a recommendation like. I just think everyone needs to delete twitter, and not give the Ciara Kelly types any oxygen.

I agree with the above poster too, I think all of society will have to make a choice with schools, you're going into a bit of a danger zone, it's your choice. Most will, but then something has to be in place to support those who don't, staff and student and parent alike. I don't know how that looks though other than the DES formally providing centralised remote lessons.

Also the unions are on at the DES, that's why you had 2 newspapers come out swinging against the unions this week.. (could be a tin foil hat though!)

Genuinely, I appreciate you and a few others for your rationale. But parents who had engagement and those who had none are at their wits end. If everyone had given the same effort throughout all this I don't think parents would be as afraid of blended learning as they are. Some on here would have you believe they were online teaching and correcting from 7am to 9pm every single day and that all of their colleagues were putting in exactly the same. That is patently not true, and the total denial of it really got up my nose.

Apologies if I've been a bit short at times, just as some of the teachers on here have a nasty attitude towards parents (and the public in general), the number who are just trying to get back to work and going above in beyond in order to do so far exceeds. I hope your concerns and conditions are properly addressed as soon as possible. And since I don't have Twitter my opinions are my own, thanks for educating me at times aswell. Lifelong learning, wha?

jrosen

History Queen wrote: »

A work around though would presumably include things thay you have been provided with such as access to soap and water, masks, face shields etc.

I agree that social distancing isn't workable with the full cohort of students in school. But when the Dept won't commit to paying for those additional measures. What do we do then?

Maybe they are expecting teachers to buy their own masks and sanitizer?

Smacruairi wrote: »

Well technically the BOM is your employer, and the DES is your paymaster, just to make it awkward and complicated.. Especially when it's not the BOM who inspects you but the DES, but that's splitting hairs!

I appreciate parents getting antsy about kids being away from the building, we all do. Just everyone stay off twitter is my suggestion, I deleted mine for my own sanity and it's been great (until I got sucked back in here)

God could you imagine the board trying to inspect...and we thought the State inspectorate are bad!

Yeah it has been a long time off school for everyone involved. People are nervous about Sept which is understandable.

History Queen

jrosen wrote: »

Im back to work, we cant social distance and we have no additional staff. Yes we have access to soap and water, masks and face shields.

This has been said for ages now on this thread when teachers focus on social distancing. There are many industries where social distancing is not possible at all. A work around has to be found in order for those business to get back. Schools wont and cant be any different, a work around has to be found.

Its actually crazy that its almost mid july with no guidance.

A work around though would presumably include things thay you have been provided with such as access to soap and water, masks, face shields etc.

I agree that social distancing isn't workable with the full cohort of students in school. But when the Dept won't commit to paying for those additional measures. What do we do then?

Smacruairi

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

Agreed. All of this comes back to the Dept. They are our employers, not the individual schools. If they want the schools back open for all (which I want too) then they need to provide a workable plan and the funding to put it into action.

Well technically the BOM is your employer, and the DES is your paymaster, just to make it awkward and complicated.. Especially when it's not the BOM who inspects you but the DES, but that's splitting hairs!

I appreciate parents getting antsy about kids being away from the building, we all do. Just everyone stay off twitter is my suggestion, I deleted mine for my own sanity and it's been great (until I got sucked back in here)

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Who on here has pointed a finger at the BoM? Their hands are totally tied. Back to the department again for instructions.

Agreed. All of this comes back to the Dept. Not the principal, not the board, not the parish, not the class teacher.. the DoE. They are our employers, not the individual schools. If they want the schools back open for all (which I want too) then they need to provide a workable plan and the funding to put it into action.

Treppen

Lillyfae wrote: »

Thanks for the clear explanation, and for your work in trying to get the children back to school. It's true that the public and media are pointing the finger at teachers, but teachers are pointing the finger at the BoMs aswell as the departments,

What? That's a new one on me?
Why would any teacher be blaming the boms when they know damm well it all boils down to the department. No BOM is going to ignore HSE advice, especially in absence of DofEd advice.
Some people will do anything to have a moan against teachers.

Lillyfae wrote: »

and I truly think it's up to the unions to get in there on the case of the DoE.

So are you supporting the current unions' position outlined in those meetings. Are they getting on the case enough?

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/doubts-about-a-full-return-to-schools-in-late-augustseptember-are-heard-at-oireachtas-meeting-39335343.html

History Queen

meeeeh wrote: »

Hand sanitiser? I am sure that can be arranged. Half (probably most) of Europe was back to school without major issues.This is ideological fight not about the best interests of kids.

That is literally one of the things the unions have asked for. What part of "the Dept need to sanction funding for schools to reopen" are you not getting?

Lillyfae wrote: »

Thanks for the clear explanation, and for your work in trying to get the children back to school. It's true that the public and media are pointing the finger at teachers, but teachers are pointing the finger at the BoMs aswell as the departments, and I truly think it's up to the unions to get in there on the case of the DoE.

Who on here has pointed a finger at the BoM? Their hands are totally tied. Back to the department again for instructions.

Smacruairi

Lillyfae wrote: »

Thanks for the clear explanation, and for your work in trying to get the children back to school. It's true that the public and media are pointing the finger at teachers, but teachers are pointing the finger at the BoMs aswell as the departments, and I truly think it's up to the unions to get in there on the case of the DoE.

I agree, but these conversations are not being had by calm heads on a rational basis. You only have to look at the debaclr of the pubs open.. And now everyone throwing a fit because the guidelines aren't being followed. We have brought in a risk assessment medical officer to look at the school next week for distances etc. You don't stick that on your website for all to see until he makes a recommendation like. I just think everyone needs to delete twitter, and not give the Ciara Kelly types any oxygen.

I agree with the above poster too, I think all of society will have to make a choice with schools, you're going into a bit of a danger zone, it's your choice. Most will, but then something has to be in place to support those who don't, staff and student and parent alike. I don't know how that looks though other than the DES formally providing centralised remote lessons.

Also the unions are on at the DES, that's why you had 2 newspapers come out swinging against the unions this week.. (could be a tin foil hat though!)

Smacruairi wrote: »

I work on a BOM, we are preparing 3 plans, one for everyone back, one for no one back, one for blended learning. We have asked the dept for clarification on several matters surrounding funding, staffing, and procedures if staff and students present as symptomatic over an extended period of time. No reply other than hang on. We submitted our views to the teachers unions, to the JMB, and invited all stakeholders to liaise with us so we could pass it on, they were very happy to communicate. Again when we passed this on to the dept, no word back.

Our staff and students are willing to rock and roll but it really is as simple as: you have told everyone to abide by hse guidelines. Hse guidelines say we can't really have school, can you go again. They then say sort it out yourselves. When we say we can't as we have no money, bodies, and we can't get a consensus from parents as to how they want to proceed, we don't get an answer at all.

We would love to be as flexible as possible, and staff similarly are keen to bend, especially the younger ones. The only ones who aren't keen are parents who understandably need to go back to work, and the media who keep trying to bafflingly make this about teachers.

I really don't understand the cognitive dissonance. People don't seem to understand that a circular is an edict to a school, you can't just do your own thing, it's not there to be interpreted. You can't just do your own thing and bend guidelines when kids are involved?

Thanks for the clear explanation, and for your work in trying to get the children back to school. It's true that the public and media are pointing the finger at teachers, but teachers are pointing the finger at the BoMs aswell as the departments, and I truly think it's up to the unions to get in there on the case of the DoE.

lulublue22

jrosen wrote: »

Im back to work, we cant social distance and we have no additional staff. Yes we have access to soap and water, masks and face shields.

This has been said for ages now on this thread when teachers focus on social distancing. There are many industries where social distancing is not possible at all. A work around has to be found in order for those business to get back. Schools wont and cant be any different, a work around has to be found.

Its actually crazy that its almost mid july with no guidance.

My own personal opinion is that social distancing will be dropped for schools. I can’t see how schools could function other wise. I personally don’t have a problem with this but in order for schools to open and stay open then we need guidelines for immunocompromised staff and children. Clear guidance around illness - parents must be available to take children home and keep at home when sick. Increased sick leave / no need to have a dr cert for staff with a cold / sore throat for the duration of the pandemic. Clear guidelines around outbreaks of covid in the school , availability of testing. Hand sanitizer and masks available for staff as a given.

Smacruairi

Lillyfae wrote: »

True, but they also have their own management structure. Every school that feels that they can't open safely needs to outline why, and what would need to be done in order to do so and the costs for doing it. Who else can do it otherwise??

I work on a BOM, we are preparing 3 plans, one for everyone back, one for no one back, one for blended learning. We have asked the dept for clarification on several matters surrounding funding, staffing, and procedures if staff and students present as symptomatic over an extended period of time. No reply other than hang on. We submitted our views to the teachers unions, to the JMB, and invited all stakeholders to liaise with us so we could pass it on, they were very happy to communicate. Again when we passed this on to the dept, no word back.

Our staff and students are willing to rock and roll but it really is as simple as: you have told everyone to abide by hse guidelines. Hse guidelines say we can't really have school, can you go again. They then say sort it out yourselves. When we say we can't as we have no money, bodies, and we can't get a consensus from parents as to how they want to proceed, we don't get an answer at all.

We would love to be as flexible as possible, and staff similarly are keen to bend, especially the younger ones. The only ones who aren't keen are parents who understandably need to go back to work, and the media who keep trying to bafflingly make this about teachers.

I really don't understand the cognitive dissonance. People don't seem to understand that a circular is an edict to a school, you can't just do your own thing, it's not there to be interpreted. You can't just do your own thing and bend guidelines when kids are involved?

Lillyfae wrote: »

True, but they also have their own management structure. Every school that feels that they can't open safely needs to outline why, and what would need to be done in order to do so and the costs for doing it. Who else can do it otherwise??

Costings can only be made or attempted really when we have proper guidance and guidelines. Still waiting.

Treppen

average_runner wrote: »

No offence but i hope every school has hot water and soap to wash kids hands before covid-19. if no hot water they should have santizier then.

Was camping at the weekend, kids had a great time with other kids. No social distancing as they got to play.

There should be no social distancing in schools either.
Kids back in all sports this week, life moves on.

Hope won't butter any parsnips.
Hence why I'm delighted unions are asking for assurances. I can't see why people are saying v this is a bad thing!

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Yes it is. Schools are being hung out to dry.

True, but they also have their own management structure. Every school that feels that they can't open safely needs to outline why, and what would need to be done in order to do so and the costs for doing it. Who else can do it otherwise??

jrosen wrote: »

Its actually crazy that its almost mid july with no guidance.

Yes it is. Schools are being hung out to dry.

jrosen

Millem wrote: »

Everyone has reopened with social distancing or more staff?

Im back to work, we cant social distance and we have no additional staff. Yes we have access to soap and water, masks and face shields.

This has been said for ages now on this thread when teachers focus on social distancing. There are many industries where social distancing is not possible at all. A work around has to be found in order for those business to get back. Schools wont and cant be any different, a work around has to be found.

Its actually crazy that its almost mid july with no guidance.

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

You said your shop steward gets an extra days holiday and I made the point that all I get are questions, not even a free dinner. I'm jealous of that!!!!!!

I didn't say shop steward, I said union rep. The Union body is made up of various colleagues across the departments in my company. They discuss things such as pay and conditions for 2 hours a month and get an extra day off per year. If there is an issue with things such as pay and conditions we put it to them and they discuss that and put it to our management. We get a monthly update on their meetings. They don't get paid for this.

Lillyfae wrote: »

I'm not trolling, I'm struggling to understand how you're happy to fund an organisation who are consistently and systematically ignored by the department they're supposed to be liaising with on your behalf?? Also wondering what you thought being the shop steward would entail if you thought that questions from your colleagues wasn't it?

You said your shop steward gets an extra days holiday and I made the point that all I get are questions, not even a free dinner. I'm jealous of that!!!!!!

I'm an active member of the union. Without unions things would be alot worse for teachers without a doubt. As someone already said most people are members for that just in case something happens moment. A colleague not mine had reason to use their legal department previously and she was mightily happy to have access to it. Government doesn't have to listen to any union if they choose not to.

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

That is a paid position. Stop trolling.

I'm not trolling, I'm struggling to understand how you're happy to fund an organisation who are consistently and systematically ignored by the department they're supposed to be liaising with on your behalf?? Also wondering what you thought being the shop steward would entail if you thought that questions from your colleagues wasn't it?

Lillyfae wrote: »

The INTO president does it out of the goodness of her heart, is it?

Providing a central point of feedback would, a lot of the time, result in many questions.

That is a paid position. Stop trolling.

average_runner wrote: »

Regarding Sanitizer, students should bring a small bottle themselves to the school, as should the teachers. Still needs to be some in the school but shouldn't depend on the school for it

They should but children constantly forget to bring things to school. Books, homework, lunch, drink, sports equipment. Now some aren't given these things at home anyway. For the foreseeable, inorder to make sure that we keep schools as safe as possible the dept just need to step the fcuk up.

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Point being that we don't even get a free dinner. You said your rep gets an additional days holiday. Reps don't do the job to get something, we do it because we enjoy helping people and provide a central point for feedback to the union.

The INTO president does it out of the goodness of her heart, is it?

Providing a central point of feedback would, a lot of the time, result in many questions.

Lillyfae wrote: »

Why do you guys bother with them? My union wouldn't let this stuff go and the representative only get an extra vacation day per year as reward for being reps

I ask myself the same question every time union dues roll around

The thing with the unions is that you don't need them until you need them. They have been very helpful when dealing with parents or principals (not me personally but from experiences from friends). They are worth it from that point of view.

I do think unions are important so I guess I feel it's best to try to change then from within. Go to the branch meetings etc etc. It can get a bit dispiriting at times but I think not attending branch meetings would be worse.

Lillyfae wrote: »

It really depends on what is deemed essential materials. A friend of mine is a teacher and when we went shopping once she was buying a load of stickers and sparkly things in the pound shop because she wanted to do a particular activity that she'd seen on the internet with the kids. A nice gesture but totally unnecessary to their actual education. Of course she can do what she likes with her own money but it wasn't a necessary expense and she knows
that.

Oh absolutely fair yes, I don't bill the school for frivolous things I buy. Things like science/art supplies, lesson or storage materials I'd get them to reimburse. Books too - sometimes you'd pick them up in charity shops. My school is quite affluent, so it's not an issue for them. For friends in other areas it's a very different story.

Funding varies widely in the US system so the classrooms with the high costs would probably be like the one my student teacher had. I believe school funding is paid via local taxes so a poor area will by default have less funding available for schools. Probably a vast oversimplification of the issues there.