Why aren't you a vegan!?

Xcellor

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

Different strokes, different folks, but my body does need meat protein.

But there is nothing in meat that isn't in plants.

gozunda

Xcellor wrote: »

Studies have shown that vegans have higher amounts of blood protein than omnivores. So the "vegans cant get enough protein" is bogus. Vegans are better off if you are concerned about protein.

https://images.app.goo.gl/iB3gaJxPJGU45aL57

That's an image - not a study but no matter. A high-protein diet doesn't cause high blood protein btw. However elevated blood proteins may indeed be indicative of a number of conditions or on the other hand may just a atypical anomaly. Not something that is deemed particularly beneficial one way or the other

See:

https://www.mayoclinic.org/symptoms/high-blood-protein/basics/causes/sym-20050599

gozunda

Xcellor wrote: »

But there is nothing in meat that isn't in plants.

Oh yes there is.

Animal protein sources, such as meat, fish, poultry, eggs and dairy, are similar to the protein found in your body.

These are considered to be complete sources of protein because they contain all of the essential amino acids that your body needs to function effectively.

On the contrary, plant protein sources, such as beans, lentils and nuts are considered to be incomplete, as they lack one or more of the essential amino acids that your body needs

Some sources report soy protein as complete. However, two essential amino acids are only found in small amounts in soy, so it isn't comparable to animal protein

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/animal-vs-plant-protein#section2

However luckily for vegans there a small number of plant-based foods, such as quinoa and buckwheat which are complete sources of protein.

It is recommended for those on restricted diets exclusive of animal based foods to mix their protein sources and ensure that they are getting all of the essential amino acids.

Also some sources of plant protein may take longer for the body to digest and use.

Assetbacked

gozunda wrote: »

Oh yes there is.



https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/animal-vs-plant-protein#section2

However luckily for vegans there a small number of plant-based foods, such as quinoa and buckwheat which are complete sources of protein.

It is recommended for those on restricted diets exclusive of animal based foods to mix their protein sources and ensure that they are getting all of the essential amino acids.

Also some sources of plant protein may take longer for the body to digest and use.

Plant sources of protein are complete sources for the 9 essential aminos.

In any event, it is not true that all essential amino acids need to be consumed in the one source of food or even in the same meal which crushes the protein argument. The positive with consuming protein through plants rather than animals is not having to worry as much about saturated fat, cholesterol and cancer from the foods.

Xcellor

gozunda wrote: »

That's an image - not a study but no matter. A high-protein diet doesn't cause high blood protein btw. However elevated blood proteins may indeed be indicative of a number of conditions or on the other hand may just a atypical anomaly. Not something that is deemed particularly beneficial one way or the other

See:

https://www.mayoclinic.org/symptoms/high-blood-protein/basics/causes/sym-20050599

The study is mentioned in the image but no matter.

Some analysis on here
https://nutritionfacts.org/video/vegan-protein-status/

So vegans are not protein deficient.

gozunda

Assetbacked wrote: »

Plant sources of protein are complete sources for the 9 essential aminos. In any event, it is not true that all essential amino acids need to be consumed in the one source of food or even in the same meal which crushes the protein argument. The positive with consuming protein through plants rather than animals is not having to worry as much about saturated fat, cholesterol and cancer from the foods.

Individual plant sources are not "complete sources for the 9 essential aminos" And it's not me btw bringing up a 'protein argument' or anything about being obliged to consume anyghing 'in one food source'. I am clearly referring to complete sources of the 9 essential amino acids. Hence the reply above. It remains that "Animal protein sources, such as meat, fish, poultry, eggs and dairy, are similar to the protein found in your body. These are considered to be complete sources of protein because they contain all of the essential amino acids (ie at the correct anounts) that your body needs to function effectively."

If you dont want to eat meat or dairy products fine but that doesn't change the basics facts.

As for the last bit quote "not having to worry as much about "saturated fat, cholesterol and cancer from the foods"

Dietary cholesterol is not considered a significant risk with regards to human diets. Eating high amounts of saturated, trans or hydrogenated fats whether that's of animal or vegetable matter is. Ditto you do not eat 'cancer'.

gozunda

Xcellor wrote: »

The study is mentioned in the image but no matter.
Some analysis on here
https://nutritionfacts.org/video/vegan-protein-status/So vegans are not protein deficient.

Yes it's an image which if you follow the image link ends up on an vegan opinion piece apparently written by a high school student.

And no I never said anyone was "protein deficient'. I mainly see that argument from some vegans claiming others are saying it. What I did detail was that - higher levels of blood protein are not linked to eating protein as you previously suggested

Xcellor

Xcellor wrote: »

The study is mentioned in the image but no matter.

Some analysis on here
https://nutritionfacts.org/video/vegan-protein-status/

So vegans are not protein deficient.

https://www.amazon.com/How-Not-Die-Cookbook-Recipes/dp/1250127769/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499995495&sr=8-1&keywords=how+not+to+die+cookbook

From Michael Greger, M.D., FACLM, the physician behind the trusted and wildly popular website Nutritionfacts.org, and author of the New York Times bestselling book How Not to Die

Robin Robertson has developed recipes for and written more than twenty cookbooks, including Vegan on the Cheap, 1,000 Vegan Recipes, Quick Fix Vegan, and Fresh from the Vegan Slow Cooker. Before becoming a cookbook expert, she was a restaurant chef and cooking teacher. She is also the writer of “The Global Vegan” column for VegNews Magazine.


Get better sources.

Xcellor

Deleted User wrote: »

https://www.amazon.com/How-Not-Die-Cookbook-Recipes/dp/1250127769/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499995495&sr=8-1&keywords=how+not+to+die+cookbook

From Michael Greger, M.D., FACLM, the physician behind the trusted and wildly popular website Nutritionfacts.org, and author of the New York Times bestselling book How Not to Die

Robin Robertson has developed recipes for and written more than twenty cookbooks, including Vegan on the Cheap, 1,000 Vegan Recipes, Quick Fix Vegan, and Fresh from the Vegan Slow Cooker. Before becoming a cookbook expert, she was a restaurant chef and cooking teacher. She is also the writer of “The Global Vegan” column for VegNews Magazine.


Get better sources.

What's wrong with the source? He's a plant based advocate referencing peer reviewed studies. It would be a bit strange to advocate a diet stating that it's optimal for health but still eat animal products, right?

gozunda

[Deleted User] wrote: »

https://www.amazon.com/How-Not-Die-Cookbook-Recipes/dp/1250127769/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499995495&sr=8-1&keywords=how+not+to+die+cookbook

From Michael Greger, M.D., FACLM, the physician behind the trusted and wildly popular website Nutritionfacts.org, and author of the New York Times bestselling book How Not to Die

Robin Robertson has developed recipes for and written more than twenty cookbooks, including Vegan on the Cheap, 1,000 Vegan Recipes, Quick Fix Vegan, and Fresh from the Vegan Slow Cooker. Before becoming a cookbook expert, she was a restaurant chef and cooking teacher. She is also the writer of “The Global Vegan” column for VegNews Magazine.
Get better sources.

Yer man Greger is a well know activist and a controversial figure who has been criticised by other medical professionals for his extreme stance on the promotion of a vegan lifestyle.

See: https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/death-as-a-foodborne-illness-curable-by-veganism/

Xcellor

Xcellor wrote: »

What's wrong with the source? He's a plant based advocate referencing peer reviewed studies. It would be a bit strange to advocate a diet stating that it's optimal for health but still eat animal products, right?

The source is biased. You can make all the moral arguments you want here regarding meat, but you cannot credibly reference websites that are agenda-driven and say "So vegans are not protein deficient." as if that is a fact because that website says it.

It's clear that the guy behind the website makes his money from veganism.

Thelonious Monk

Why are meat eaters so concerned about nutrient deficiency in vegans? Look at the state of most meat eaters in the Western world these days, obesity rates rocketing etc. I would still say vegans are healthier overall than the average carnivore.

joseywhales

First of all, every single person lives a life of constant hypocracy, I don't hold myself to the standard of perfection, I will always be flawed.

Having said that, I have started to reduce my consumption of meat, since I was eating meat at least twice a day every day for over 30 years. This is a purely selfish endeavour because I want to be healthier, if a few less animals die then great bonus side effect but I don't really care.

I will definitely not give up eggs or cheese.

Thelonious Monk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Why are meat eaters so concerned about nutrient deficiency in vegans? Look at the state of most meat eaters in the Western world these days, obesity rates rocketing etc. I would still say vegans are healthier overall than the average carnivore.

You're absolutely right. Xcellor's resource regarding protein had this screenshot in the 1.09 minute video regarding protein.




I live in Vietnam. There is pretty much zero value to any research done here. The "vegan nuns" from HCM are vegetarian. The abstract says this, but the title of the research says it's veganism for some reason. The research is about bone density, but this hack from that website puts in a video about protein, and then you have people across the internet quoting that video as if it were medical fact.


I am in no way concerned about nutritional deficiencies in vegans. I just think resources like that are meant to be mocked. You can find the exact same physicians and abuse of research regarding anything you want to believe.

gozunda

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Why are meat eaters so concerned about nutrient deficiency in vegans? Look at the state of most meat eaters in the Western world these days, obesity rates rocketing etc. I would still say vegans are healthier overall than the average carnivore.

Thats the thing what you refer to 'meat eaters' are generally not 'concerned'. That bizarre claim seems to be another myth. Funnily enough not the first time this has come up. See: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=110176733&postcount=138

This bit of the thread here on the other hand seems to be simply various claims about vegan diets such as high blood protein which really dont stand up to scrutiny as part of the ongoing discussion.

Not having a go but for someone who claims not to a be vegan but a 'meat eater' - your comments appear to have a helluva lot of plant based promotion and anti animal farming stuff. Tbh it comes across as being all a bit ministry of propagandist. The thing is I dont know any 'carnovires' except maybe a couple of cats. Other than that the majority of those I know eating a normal balanced diet (ie omnivores) are a fairly healthy lot in my own experience. But there we go eh?

Assetbacked

gozunda wrote: »

Individual plant sources are not "complete sources for the 9 essential aminos" And it's not me btw bringing up a 'protein argument' or anything about being obliged to consume anyghing 'in one food source'. I am clearly referring to complete sources of the 9 essential amino acids. Hence the reply above. It remains that Animal protein sources, such as meat, fish, poultry, eggs and dairy, are similar to the protein found in your body. These are considered to be complete sources of protein because they contain all of the essential amino acids that your body needs to function effectively.

If you dont want to eat meat or dairy products fine but that doesn't change the basics facts.

As for the last bit quote "not having to worry as much about "saturated fat, cholesterol and cancer from the foods"

Dietary cholesterol is not considered a significant risk with regards to human diets. Eating high amounts of saturated, trans or hydrogenated fats whether that's of animal or vegetable matter is. Ditto you do not eat 'cancer'.

Processed pork significantly increases your risk of cancer so consuming protein from pork will give you complete protein but at a cost. Also, it is high in salt as well which will also cause significant health issues with your heart. Eating red meat for your protein will cause your heart a lot of stress too.

As for the complete source of protein argument, yes it is true that animal sources are complete sources but this is truly not that important if you consume a balanced plant based diet. Why? Because you don't need all essential aminos in one food or even one meal. Eating a balanced meal or meals will get you there comfortably. It is really not difficult.

In any event, we don't need a lot of protein in our diet. Only high performing athletes do, so again it is a nominal issue.

Tar.Aldarion

gozunda wrote: »

Individual plant sources are not "complete sources for the 9 essential aminos" And it's not me btw bringing up a 'protein argument' or anything about being obliged to consume anyghing 'in one food source'. I am clearly referring to complete sources of the 9 essential amino acids. Hence the reply above. It remains that Animal protein sources, such as meat, fish, poultry, eggs and dairy, are similar to the protein found in your body. These are considered to be complete sources of protein because they contain all of the essential amino acids that your body needs to function effectively.

If you dont want to eat meat or dairy products fine but that doesn't change the basics facts.

As for the last bit quote "not having to worry as much about "saturated fat, cholesterol and cancer from the foods"

Dietary cholesterol is not considered a significant risk with regards to human diets. Eating high amounts of saturated, trans or hydrogenated fats whether that's of animal or vegetable matter is. Ditto you do not eat 'cancer'.

Completely false, back this up. I have the amino acid profiles of many foods here in front of me. Even a potato is complete.

You're even using the term wrong, complete does not refer to them simply having the 9 or not, it refers to them having adequate proportions of all 9. All these plant sources people eat have all 9.
It is actually nearly impossible to get the amount of protein you require per day and not get enough of even one EAA.

gozunda

Assetbacked wrote: »

Processed pork significantly increases your risk of cancer so consuming protein from pork will give you complete protein but at a cost. Also, it is high in salt as well which will also cause significant health issues with your heart. Eating red meat for your protein will cause your heart a lot of stress. As for the complete source of protein argument, yes it is true that animal sources are complete sources but this is truly not that important if you consume a balanced plant based diet. Why? Because you don't need all essential aminos in one food or even one meal. Eating a balanced meals or meals will get you there comfortably. It is really not difficult.
In any event, we don't need a lot of protein in our diet. Only high performing athletes do so again it is a nominal issue.

Nope. Incorrect. According to the world Health Organisation - the link of cancer and processed meats is based on a number of epidemiological studies which suggest that small increases in the risk of several cancers may be associated with high consumption of processed meat. WHOs review of those studies also concluded that eating meat has known health benefits and more importantly that the "consumption of red meat has not been established as a cause of cancer" "And no eating red meat as part of a balanced diet will not cause anyones heart "a lot of stress". It remains meat is a recommended part of a healthy balanced diet. And that's according to bodies like the NHS - not some whacky diet activist.

Anyway afaik no one was referring to processed meats. But yeah processed foods whether they are meat based or plant based are advised to be a limited part of any balanced diets. As is too much salt - plenty of that in highly processed plant based foods as well. This supports mainstream nutrition advice, not veganism.

To clarify the rather strange claims about blood protein ignored the issue of essential amino acids - hence the clarification. That has already been explained. .

At the end of the day a vegan diet can be just as good or bad as any other diet depending on the the selection of foods by the consumer.

Assetbacked

Assetbacked wrote: »

Processed pork significantly increases your risk of cancer so consuming protein from pork will give you complete protein but at a cost.

It pays to understand those risks though. Back in 2015 I think it was when red meats and processed meats were classified by WHO and IARC as carcinogenic people and news headlines freaked out.

This was mainly because most people - even so called science journalists - misunderstood or deliberately misrepresented what that classification meant. They failed to point out that the classification measures the certainty of the hazard and not the magnitude. Mainly because meat being in the same category as cigarettes only made a good news story if you did not point out what it actually meant.

When they reported that eating such meat increases your risk of cancer by 16 or 18% - sorry my memory for the exact figures has waned over the last 4 years - they failed of course to mention this is a _relative_ risk increase not an absolute one. What this means is that eating a few ounces of process meat _daily_ for the rest of your life your lifetime risk of getting - say - colorectal cancer goes from 4.5% to 5.3% (Calculation not mine - it came from a guy called Kevin Drum). This is not all that significant - and as I said it assumes a constant _daily_ intake over a life time.

Meat consumption has gone down over the last decade in places like the US. There has been no associated decrease in either obesity or cardiovascular disease in that country.

The biggest problem with all the studies that seem to get trotted out when this conversation comes up is for me related to the quantities of red meats being consumed to get the results the vegans want to cite. Thing is if we focused our studies on excessive or extreme consumption of any food at all - we would likely find issues there too. The studies that focus on - or include equal amounts of - people who are eating moderate amounts simply do not show the issues the activist vegans tend to want to cite.

Epidemiological evidence only gets us so far on these questions alas. What we need is more randomized control trials. They do exist of course, but in a limited fashion.

But for me most of the "This diet is healthier" arguments based on citing cherry picked studies - often studies evaluating the same base data coming to different conclusions so it is funny when one group cites one and the other group the other all based on the same data - tend just to be background noise for me therefore.

I am not eating the level of consumption of any food - meat or anything else - to put myself into the risk categories their cherry picked studies are based on. There is one over arching golden rule in my omnivore diet. Variety. I eat pretty much everything going - with some gusto - but when I eat one thing I do my best not to eat it again for as long as possible.

If I eat red meat today I likely won't for 2 or 3 weeks again. If I eat fish today the same. Lentils the same. Rice the same. And so on. And there is not a single study anyone has cited anywhere at me - at any time - that puts my diet in any kind of risk category.

Xcellor

Xcellor wrote: »

Irish vegan strong as ****.

I am not for or against arguing for such diets - though a happy meat eater myself - so I have no agenda to shoot down the vegan diet. However I do not know the history of that person or any other to be honest. So I am a bit cautious about them being cited to support or detract from the case being made by either side here.

First of all people at the top of their sport tend to be outliers in our species anyway - so the effects of their diet or other regimes do not automatically map onto the people being targetted with them as an example.

Second a lot can depend on _when_ such an outlier switched to a new diet. This often does not get mentioned. Deliberately. In fact I read 10 articles on kennedy today and not one of them mentioned when the transition occurred. Even for example this article which claims to be a "deepdive" into his history - and even has a section titled "Becoming Vegan" - manages somehow not at all to mention when he did it.

gozunda

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Completely false, back this up. I have the amino acid profiles of many foods here in front of me. Even a potato is complete.You're even using the term wrong, complete does not refer to them simply having the 9 or not, it refers to them having adequate proportions of all 9. All these plant sources people eat have all 9.It is actually nearly impossible to get the amount of protein you require per day and not get enough of even one EAA.

Right away boss!

Sigh but kinda getting off topic no? You need to read through the thread to see what's under discussion. And yes I already did back that up btw.

Animal protein sources, such as meat, fish, poultry, eggs and dairy, are similar to the protein found in your body.

These are considered to be complete sources of protein because they contain all of the essential amino acids that your body needs to function effectively.

On the contrary, plant protein sources, such as beans, lentils and nuts are considered to be incomplete, as they lack one or more of the essential amino acids that your body needs

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/animal-vs-plant-protein#section2

And no I'm not using that wrong either. The term includes that fact and is detailed in the link. If you dont like how its worded - dont shoot the messenger.

conhoulihan

cut down on meat and eat more plants, good for your pocket too

gozunda

conhoulihan wrote: »

cut down on meat and eat more plants, good for your pocket too

But not for the plants it isn't! But seriously it's not all good - the fact that in Ireland we have to import a lot of vegetables and fruits due to our climate and topography. And I dont like the way supermarkets stitch up the vegetable suppliers we do have to sell at ridiculously low prices tbh.

I think the standard recommendation is for a balanced diet which can also include a wide variety of food sources including meat and other local produce ...

Assetbacked

I have recently discovered seitan (a use for vital wheat gluten) which is nearly 100% protein (not complete). Learning to prepare it for meat substitutes is worth the effort as it is a fantastic substitute for things like chicken, kebab meat and beef, by way of examples. I'm not vegan as I eat fish but it's great to mix up fish with an alternative protein source. Sort of a by the bye post, I acknowledge that.

Unearthly

Assetbacked wrote: »

I have recently discovered seitan (a use for vital wheat gluten) which is nearly 100% protein (not complete). Learning to prepare it for meat substitutes is worth the effort as it is a fantastic subsistute for things like chicken, kebab meat and beef, by way of examples. I'm not vegan as I eat fish but it's great to mix up fish with an alternative protein source. Sort of a by the bye post, I acknowledge that.

Indeed. Seitan is a beast of a food for protein

I feel these conversations always ignore the elephant in the room.. Vegans, like meat-eaters, can and do have bad diets. A moral conviction regarding animals does not turn you into an enthusiastic cook, increase your food budget, or give you knowledge about what your body needs.

Fair play to any vegan who does the work and continues to do it right after that initial burst of motivation. Anecdotally though, I don't know any vegan or attempted vegan who said they had a good diet. That, not a desire for meat, is what I've seen cause the slide back to vegetarianism and then usually meat-eating.

Xcellor

Unearthly wrote: »

Indeed. Seitan is a beast of a food for protein

Where do you buy it? I must try it

gozunda

Assetbacked wrote: »

I have recently discovered seitan (a use for vital wheat gluten) which is nearly 100% protein (not complete). Learning to prepare it for meat substitutes is worth the effort as it is a fantastic substitute for things like chicken, kebab meat and beef, by way of examples. I'm not vegan as I eat fish but it's great to mix up fish with an alternative protein source. Sort of a by the bye post, I acknowledge that.

Saw a fairly good article on that stuff a while back. As a processed food though it seems to come with the following advisory...

Seitan is (a) ... highly processed food and should probably be consumed in moderation.

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/seitan

Xcellor

gozunda wrote: »

Saw a fairly good article on that stuff a while back. As a processed food though it seems to come with the following advisory...



https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/seitan

Great cherry pick!

gozunda

Xcellor wrote: »

Great cherry pick!

Cherry pick? Do you mean as in your comments above. Eitherway read the article it's one of the main conclusions. Highly processed foods are not recommended as you probably know. Reckon we need to go back to whole foods whether vegetable or otherwise imo. Sorry if that doesn't suit ...