Why aren't you a vegan!?

Calhoun

Pretty harrowing stuff https://m.sfgate.com/news/article/A-baby-kept-on-a-vegan-diet-died-His-parents-14855623.php

Shows the level of ignorance in terms of what our bodies need to develop.

YFlyer

Calhoun wrote: »

Pretty harrowing stuff https://m.sfgate.com/news/article/A-baby-kept-on-a-vegan-diet-died-His-parents-14855623.php

Shows the level of ignorance in terms of what our bodies need to develop.

What was the typical diet?

Calhoun

YFlyer wrote: »

What was the typical diet?

Its in the article.

emaherx

Calhoun wrote: »

Pretty harrowing stuff https://m.sfgate.com/news/article/A-baby-kept-on-a-vegan-diet-died-His-parents-14855623.php

Shows the level of ignorance in terms of what our bodies need to develop.

I'm obviously not a vegan but I wouldn't find articles like that any more proof that veganism is a bad diet than the ludicrous claims in this thread about animal agriculture. If they were omnivores with malnourished children would we be reading about it? From reading it, were they Raw Vegans? If so I think most Vegans agree we need to cook lots of veg that we eat in order to digest it.

We have very little information about the case and it's a perfect example of how the media loves to create stand out head lines but lack very much in their reporting. I have twin boys who were born a little prematurely, for the first 2 years of their lives they were underweight and went hypoglycemic twice when they got stomach bugs both times only after puking once or twice and within hours of each other. We worked with a nutritionist for the 2 years and they were given some prescribed special pediatric weight gain foods. If they were raised on a standard omnivore diet and without medical and nutrional help that we received they could easily have met the same faith as the child in that headline.

Personally I don't believe the Vegan diet is right for everyone for many reasons. I don't get the I'm vegan and it works for me argument as I know from personal experience that every single one of us has different nutritional requirements.

_Brian

wakka12 wrote: »

https://www.livekindly.co/europe-meat-consumption-dropped-20/?fbclid=IwAR2e2TkcLL0pFQnROuWfJ7rW9-c0SOdbD3hS55KdSamH1n6SSyAWvAKkvWA
Looks like this explosion in interest in climate change since September might actually be having a real effect. Europe's meat consumption has reduced by 20% in 3 months. Shows how different boards demographic is to real life, that a lot of people do care about the environment, maybe there is hope.

Stastics show it won’t last, it’s a passing fad, something like 80-90% return to a fully omnivorous diet within a year.

We need to push change in how animals are farmed not suddenly start pretending that humans aren’t omnivores.

emaherx

_Brian wrote: »

Stastics show it won’t last, it’s a passing fad, something like 80-90% return to a fully omnivorous diet within a year.

We need to push change in how animals are farmed not suddenly start pretending that humans aren’t omnivores.

It was also 20% in some weeks over the 3 months due to drought in parts of Europe.

Thelonious Monk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Flying over Ireland you see feck all trees, flying over the South of England it looks quite forested. Everyone likes trees, we should be planting more.

#TeamTrees are up to 16 million of their target 20 million trees.

I particularly enjoyed when Elon Musk donated 1 million trees to it and then hours later Tobi Lutke literally one upped him and donated 1million+1 trees.

They claim "The goal is to plant trees on every continent not named Antarctica!". I wonder if Ireland is anywhere on that list

Xcellor

_Brian wrote: »

Stastics show it won’t last, it’s a passing fad, something like 80-90% return to a fully omnivorous diet within a year.

We need to push change in how animals are farmed not suddenly start pretending that humans aren’t omnivores.

I think people who decide to try plant based diets and who don't accept the ethical argument are more likely to "give up" and say it's not working. Before I became aware of routine farming practices and was only doing it for health I was like "oh a piece of cake. what's the harm."

All animal agriculture commodifies life which is wrong. If an animal stops making money (or even reduces) for its owner it's put on another truck. The industry is set up to maximize as much as possible output to increase profits. We might have high standards of welfare in Ireland, but why is that? Sick animals don't make as much profit and produce a lower quality of product.

emaherx

Xcellor wrote: »

We might have high standards of welfare in Ireland, but why is that? Sick animals don't make as much profit and produce a lower quality of product.

You think that is the only reason for high welfare standards? You obviously know nothing about farmers.

Calhoun

emaherx wrote: »

I'm obviously not a vegan but I wouldn't find articles like that any more proof that veganism is a bad diet than the ludicrous claims in this thread about animal agriculture. If they were omnivores with malnourished children would we be reading about it? From reading it, were they Raw Vegans? If so I think most Vegans agree we need to cook lots of veg that we eat in order to digest it.

We have very little information about the case and it's a perfect example of how the media loves to create stand out head lines but lack very much in their reporting. I have twin boys who were born a little prematurely, for the first 2 years of their lives they were underweight and went hypoglycemic twice when they got stomach bugs both times only after puking once or twice and within hours of each other. We worked with a nutritionist for the 2 years and they were given some prescribed special pediatric weight gain foods. If they were raised on a standard omnivore diet and without medical and nutrional help that we received they could easily have met the same faith as the child in that headline.

Personally I don't believe the Vegan diet is right for everyone for many reasons. I don't get the I'm vegan and it works for me argument as I know from personal experience that every single one of us has different nutritional requirements.

That is pretty much the point i am trying to make, the article while it had very little detail it had enough to tell you that just winging it on a vegan diet wont work and you have to really understand what foods are nutritionally valuable and what aren't.

In the case i linked above, not only did a child die but you also had siblings who had black and rotted teeth. So it was more than a diet and more of a putting their beliefs before the welfare of their children and this can happen on either side of the coin (vegan & omnivore).

Graces7

Xcellor wrote: »

I think people who decide to try plant based diets and who don't accept the ethical argument are more likely to "give up" and say it's not working. Before I became aware of routine farming practices and was only doing it for health I was like "oh a piece of cake. what's the harm."

All animal agriculture commodifies life which is wrong. If an animal stops making money (or even reduces) for its owner it's put on another truck. The industry is set up to maximize as much as possible output to increase profits. We might have high standards of welfare in Ireland, but why is that? Sick animals don't make as much profit and produce a lower quality of product.

No it does not. Just some forms of life. Not life itself

Graces7

Calhoun wrote: »

That is pretty much the point i am trying to make, the article while it had very little detail it had enough to tell you that just winging it on a vegan diet wont work and you have to really understand what foods are nutritionally valuable and what aren't.

In the case i linked above, not only did a child die but you also had siblings who had black and rotted teeth. So it was more than a diet and more of a putting their beliefs before the welfare of their children and this can happen on either side of the coin (vegan & omnivore).

Where I used to live there was a kind of cult whose members barred all animal produce .. One of their babies all but died as a direct result.
It was as you say ignorance but induced by the vegan approach

PhilOssophy

Tofu and BJ day doesn't have the same ring to it as steak and BJ day

Tar.Aldarion

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Tofu and BJ day doesn't have the same ring to it as steak and BJ day

We usually do BJ + BJ day

gormdubhgorm

wakka12 wrote: »

https://www.livekindly.co/europe-meat-consumption-dropped-20/?fbclid=IwAR2e2TkcLL0pFQnROuWfJ7rW9-c0SOdbD3hS55KdSamH1n6SSyAWvAKkvWA
Looks like this explosion in interest in climate change since September might actually be having a real effect. Europe's meat consumption has reduced by 20% in 3 months. Shows how different boards demographic is to real life, that a lot of people do care about the environment, maybe there is hope.

gozunda wrote: »

'Explosion'?

So a vegan website is making the bizarre claim that meat consumption has somehow decreased 'by 20%" in Europe - as detailed by a "red meat industry rep' from New Zealand? And that piece of information is told by Charlotte - who "has an upper second class honors in History from Oxford Brookes University and a postgraduate certificate in Cultural Heritage from Winchester University. She loves music, travel, and animals. Charlotte resides on the South coast of the UK.

All righty then - Case closed! :rolleyes:

FeirmeoirtTed wrote: »

That article is the exact reason why people are so sceptical about journalism and everything science related today. You literally quoted whats written there as fact. That is being used by you to persuade people that Europe has reduced their meat consumption by 20 % in 3 months. Honestly do you think that is factually correct? We should question everything that's written by journalists and scientists today with a healthy amount of scepticism because opinion is all to often trotted out as fact to push personal agendas.

You see to me it is wild unsubstantiated claims like wakka12 said above that make the Vegans seem even more quirky/daft/fringe element. And therefore (in my view) are not to be taken seriously.

If worldwide beef consumption did actually fall by 20% there would be evidence of it in drastic movements in stocks and shares? Massive job losses, farmers selling up a once thriving businesses?
The vegan religious zealotry fervour only ends up shooting itself in the foot, with silly statements.
It makes the average Joe think "oh right those crowd again...."
I think it is not a way to get people on to thier side or way of thinking.
It just ends up sounding daft. Will vegans ever move on from the meaning middle class urban types, that do not have much grasp of reality?

Xcellor

Graces7 wrote: »

Where I used to live there was a kind of cult whose members barred all animal produce .. One of their babies all but died as a direct result.
It was as you say ignorance but induced by the vegan approach

There are crazy omnivores and crazy vegans... Nothing new there.

gypsy79

YFlyer wrote: »

Why not eat cat?

No particular reason. My reasoning being that there must be a good reason why others dont.

I wouldnt eat dog again

Xcellor

emaherx wrote: »

You think that is the only reason for high welfare standards?

Yes. You only need to look at how farmers discriminate against different animals. The care given to a chicken for example versus a cow. If a chicken gets sick what does the farmer do? Does a vet get called?

If farmers actually cared about the animals welfare you wouldn't be able to buy a chicken for 3 euro in Tesco.

gypsy79

gypsy79 wrote: »

No particular reason. My reasoning being that there must be a good reason why others dont.

I wouldnt eat dog again

They do, but I don't know why. It's stringy crap.

Morris Moss

Xcellor wrote: »

Yes. You only need to look at how farmers discriminate against different animals. The care given to a chicken for example versus a cow. If a chicken gets sick what does the farmer do? Does a vet get called?

If farmers actually cared about the animals welfare you wouldn't be able to buy a chicken for 3 euro in Tesco.

Yes because it's farmers who dictate the price, good man, the ironic thing is farmers care for more animals than you or any other vegan ever will, if you think farmers are in it for money you really don't have the first clue about farming.

whisky_galore

YFlyer wrote: »

Why not eat cat?

Mmm, Roof Rabbit.

Effects

Graces7 wrote: »

Where I used to live there was a kind of cult whose members barred all animal produce .. One of their babies all but died as a direct result.
It was as you say ignorance but induced by the vegan approach

97% of all cult members that die are actually omnivores. Fact.

emaherx

Xcellor wrote: »

Yes. You only need to look at how farmers discriminate against different animals. The care given to a chicken for example versus a cow. If a chicken gets sick what does the farmer do? Does a vet get called?

If farmers actually cared about the animals welfare you wouldn't be able to buy a chicken for 3 euro in Tesco.

Ah yes the good old let's look at the most intensive factory farm and transpose that onto all farmers argument. I'd imagine those chicken farms have high vet bills, disease in animals farmed in that manner could devestate the entire operation. Also not all chicken is farmed in that manner I personally wouldn't call those operations farms or their operators farmers.

You have no idea about anybody's motivations to do anything they do. I've no idea what your motivation is to simply think the worst of anyone who dose not subscribe to your ideals.

Farmers often risk their lives to save one sick animal or rescue one animal from danger that animal has managed to put itself in. Often the cheaper quicker safer option would be to put the animal down but more often than not it is not the course of action taken.

Xcellor

Morris Moss wrote: »

Yes because it's farmers who dictate the price, good man, the ironic thing is farmers care for more animals than you or any other vegan ever will, if you think farmers are in it for money you really don't have the first clue about farming.

So farmers aren't in it for the money? :rolleyes:

If the conditions that chickens have to raised in are inhumane but are required to be profitable then why would a farmer caring about the welfare be in this industry?

Reviews and Books Galore

I have a theory that Veganism/Vegetarinism is too look rich/upper class. In the past, and in a lot of non western cultures, vegetables are seen as poor and meat is seen as rich, and I feel like that was the same 10-20 years ago.



Take two families. One has only vegetables to eat in a restuarant, and the other has only meat. Who would you class as being of a higher income bracket?

Xcellor

emaherx wrote: »

Ah yes the good old let's look at the most intensive factory farm and transpose that onto all farmers argument. I'd imagine those chicken farms have high vet bills, disease in animals farmed in that manner could devestate the entire operation. Also not all chicken is farmed in that manner I personally wouldn't call those operations farms or their operators farmers.

You have no idea about anybody's motivations to do anything they do. I've no idea what your motivation is to simply think the worst of anyone who dose not subscribe to your ideals.

Farmers often risk their lives to save one sick animal or rescue one animal from danger that animal has managed to put itself in. Often the cheaper quicker safer option would be to put the animal down but more often than not it is not the course of action taken.

The 3 euro chicken in tesco comes from factory farms that exist in Ireland. In fact the vast majority of chicken produced globally is factory farmed.

I 'm sure the motivation is more than likely to have a profitable business as farming is a business.

Do you believe if a chicken gets sick - an individual chicken that that animal gets the same level of care (given that it's probably worth a couple cents to the farmer) as a cow?

If welfare mattered they would. In vast majority of cases the animal will just die in pain and be scooped up and thrown away. We put different values the life animals and coincidentally that's usually attached to the monetary value of the animal...

Welfare - but only when its a legal requirement or impacts the bottom line.

Hoboo

Xcellor wrote: »

So farmers aren't in it for the money? :rolleyes:

If the conditions that chickens have to raised in are inhumane but are required to be profitable then why would a farmer caring about the welfare be in this industry?

You're talking about intensive factory farming.

The majority of dairy, beef and sheep farmers, where animals roam and graze, do it because it's tradition in the family. They more often than not have second jobs. Farm pays for itself with a bit leftover but sfa for the majority.

Lefty Bicek

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

I have a theory that Veganism/Vegetarinism is too look rich/upper class. In the past, and in a lot of non western cultures, vegetables are seen as poor and meat is seen as rich, and I feel like that was the same 10-20 years ago.



Take two families. One has only vegetables to eat in a restuarant, and the other has only meat. Who would you class as being of a higher income bracket?

Is it a Pizza Express ?

Mr Tickle

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

I have a theory that Veganism/Vegetarinism is too look rich/upper class. In the past, and in a lot of non western cultures, vegetables are seen as poor and meat is seen as rich, and I feel like that was the same 10-20 years ago.



Take two families. One has only vegetables to eat in a restuarant, and the other has only meat. Who would you class as being of a higher income bracket?

I think having this kind of status attached to different foods is part of the problem. It's one more subconscious obstacle to overcome in terms of getting people to make rational food choices rather than emotional ones.

I think if you look at it logically most of us in the west eat too much meat. I also don't think that the solution is to convince everyone to be Vegan. There's an enormous spectrum there to be played with.

emaherx

Xcellor wrote: »

The 3 euro chicken in tesco comes from factory farms that exist in Ireland. In fact the vast majority of chicken produced globally is factory farmed.

I 'm sure the motivation is more than likely to have a profitable business as farming is a business.

Do you believe if a chicken gets sick - an individual chicken that that animal gets the same level of care (given that it's probably worth a couple cents to the farmer) as a cow?

If welfare mattered they would. In vast majority of cases the animal will just die in pain and be scooped up and thrown away. We put different values the life animals and coincidentally that's usually attached to the monetary value of the animal...

Welfare - but only when its a legal requirement or impacts the bottom line.

172,000 farmers in Ireland only 350 are registered as chicken producers. Of those 350 not all choose intensive factory farms, wonder why some don't choose that path?

Less than 350 out of 172,000 is a small number of farms that fit the profile of what you try to beat all farmers with. Cattle can be produced in a similar manner too, but most of Ireland's family run farms refuse to farm that way. Again you seem to think you have some magical insight into other people or weirdly want to fantasize about people mistreating animals for the craic?