Why aren't you a vegan!?

Xcellor

_Brian wrote: »

Lots of people here seem not to like the way they think farms run and farmers run their business.

Talking online about this stuff achieves nothing because anyone with a half knowledge of farming sees your information is second or third hand recounts of stuff that happens on factory farms in other countries. Quite a few people are embarrassing themselves saying cattle loaded with antibiotics are being killed in Ireland. Antibiotics are expensive here, prescription only and highly regulated and their use traceable from an animals birth to slaughter, it’s massive trouble for a farmer if they send an animal to slaughter within the withdrawal periods - massive.

The best advice is if you have an ideal farming practice you want to see happen, stop talking about it and go out and put your money where your mouth is.
If you want free range, organic, cage free, pasture fed or whatever, go out and find an Irish farmer doing this and buy their produce. Use your voting power to build a market, create demand and farms will shift production to fill the demand. Farmers can’t move to more expensive production methods without an appropriate market to sell produce into.

Currently 30% of organically produced meat in Ireland is killed commercially because there is no market.

At the last round of applications for the organics scheme 60 % of applicants who were eligible were rejected access, even though they met the application criteria - consumers aren’t buying the products.

So it’s very hollow to see non farming people here banging on about increasing farming standards when consumers aren’t willing to buy the products.

What is hollow is saying welfare is important when as you've alluded to it is secondary to profit. If there isn't demand for higher welfare from consumer or legislation driving change farmers won't make any changes. Lip service that's all it is. At least you're honest!

It's clear given the protests that raising beef even with the heavy subsidies and the ideal grassy green fields is unsustainable financially so maybe it's time to just accept it.

_Brian

Xcellor wrote: »

What is hollow is saying welfare is important when as you've alluded to it is secondary to profit. If there isn't demand for higher welfare from consumer or legislation driving change farmers won't make any changes. Lip service that's all it is. At least you're honest!

It's clear given the protests that raising beef even with the heavy subsidies and the ideal grassy green fields is unsustainable financially so maybe it's time to just accept it.

This is pretty typical Extremist Vegan behaviour, insinuating a lie into something that’s not there.

emaherx

Xcellor wrote: »

What is hollow is saying welfare is important when as you've alluded to it is secondary to profit. If there isn't demand for higher welfare from consumer or legislation driving change farmers won't make any changes. Lip service that's all it is. At least you're honest!

Pure horse manure he suggested nothing of the sort. Seems damn obvious you see only what you want to see.

_Brian

emaherx wrote: »

Pure horse manure he suggested nothing of the sort of the sort. Seems damn obvious you see only what you want to see.

This is what must have ordinary decent vegans banging their heads of the wall.

Height of ignorance to blindly plough on peddling their warped version of how hey see the world.

I’m glad I don’t live in such a dark warped plane of existence, so detached from reality.

Alrigghtythen

Xcellor wrote: »

What is hollow is saying welfare is important when as you've alluded to it is secondary to profit. If there isn't demand for higher welfare from consumer or legislation driving change farmers won't make any changes. Lip service that's all it is. At least you're honest!

It's clear given the protests that raising beef even with the heavy subsidies and the ideal grassy green fields is unsustainable financially so maybe it's time to just accept it.

We could shut down all the farms here and import more cheap Brazillian beef

Wibbs

emaherx wrote: »

Seems damn obvious you see only what you want to see.

A given in those passionate on a subject all the way up to zealotry.

emaherx

Wibbs wrote: »

A given in those passionate on a subject all the way up to zealotry.

True but there are many vegans who can put up a good argument as to why they think we should not eat meat without the constant need to make things up or trying to misrepresent facts. Unlike some who can go so far as to make assumptions about people's motivations to not mistreat animals, people they have never met and they probably have not been to many working family farms if any.

_Brian

emaherx wrote: »

True but there are many vegans who can put up a good argument as to why they think we should not eat meat without the constant need to make things up or trying to misrepresent facts. Especially when they can go so far as to make assumptions of people's motivations to not mistreat animals, people they have never met and they probably have not been to many working family farms if any.

Maybe in some ways it’s a failing of our own that these people remain ignorant to the motives and goals of farmers.

Being born into a family farm is an odd upbringing in many many ways.

“The animals don’t choose to be farmed so their needs come first” is something my dad used to say when we were tending stock. Growing up with that on a daily basis it’s not something you think about it’s just there, every day, in every decision.
Sunday’s, Saturday nights, Christmas Day, your wedding day, your fathers funeral, they are all days that start with planning that the stock are tended to first, that any problems are sorted first before the family start their day whatever it is, ordinary, happy or sad.

How can someone who isn’t raised at this actually understand it ?

And then woven into that is indeed the plan to make a profit, it’s a fact, but it’s not the first thought of the day and indeed so many days go bye that it’s not talked about at all.

Yes maximising animal health, growth and comfort are talked about and worked on every day but that is the symbiotic nature of animal health and profit. “They mightn’t be worth much after we feed them, but you can be sure they will be worthless if we starve them” was always rolled out at home when prices were bad and lads worried about feed prices and beef prices. Farm families do without to ensure stock are fed and receive care, often without realising they are doing without. So so many farm families never take a day away or a holiday, ten years could without a family holiday and many don’t notice.

Explain that to someone who punches the 9 to 5, who scurries off to whinge to a union of the boss hurts their feelings. Who looks at a YouTube video from some hell hole factory farm in some far flung land and says that’s what Irish farms are like without once ever visiting one or taking the time to genuinely getting to know a farmer.

Lefty Bicek

_Brian wrote: »

Maybe in some ways it’s a failing of our own that these people remain ignorant to the motives and goals of farmers.

Being born into a family farm is an odd upbringing in many many ways.

“The animals don’t choose to be farmed so their needs come first” is something my dad used to say when we were tending stock. Growing up with that on a daily basis it’s not something you think about it’s just there, every day, in every decision.
Sunday’s, Saturday nights, Christmas Day, your wedding day, your fathers funeral, they are all days that start with planning that the stock are tended to first, that any problems are sorted first before the family start their day whatever it is, ordinary, happy or sad.

How can someone who isn’t raised at this actually understand it ?

And then woven into that is indeed the plan to make a profit, it’s a fact, but it’s not the first thought of the day and indeed so many days go bye that it’s not talked about at all.

Yes maximising animal health, growth and comfort are talked about and worked on every day but that is the symbiotic nature of animal health and profit. “They mightn’t be worth much after we feed them, but you can be sure they will be worthless if we starve them” was always rolled out at home when prices were bad and lads worried about feed prices and beef prices. Farm families do without to ensure stock are fed and receive care, often without realising they are doing without. So so many farm families never take a day away or a holiday, ten years could without a family holiday and many don’t notice.

Explain that to someone who punches the 9 to 5, who scurries off to whinge to a union of the boss hurts their feelings. Who looks at a YouTube video from some hell hole factory farm in some far flung land and says that’s what Irish farms are like without once ever visiting one or taking the time to genuinely getting to know a farmer.

You need to relax a bit there. 'Scurry' and 'whinge' are pejorative terms and there's no need for them. Plenty people are being absolutely abused in their workplaces while you are communing with nature every day, outside your own door.

Many 9 to 5'ers that I know, with union representation at work, are farming when they get home in the evening.

Some people who have never had a realistic option other than punching a 9 to 5, would willingly trade places with you.

For that matter, they'd love a union with the same access to power that the IFA has.

Rationally, nobody is making anyone do it, so less of the 'An Béal Bocht', please.

_Brian

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

You need to relax a bit there. 'Scurry' and 'whinge' are pejorative terms and there's no need for them. Plenty people are being absolutely abused in their workplaces while you are communing with nature every day, outside your own door.

Many 9 to 5'ers that I know, with union representation at work, are farming when they get home in the evening.

Some people who have never had a realistic option other than punching a 9 to 5, would willingly trade places with you.

For that matter, they'd love a union with the same access to power that the IFA has.

Rationally, nobody is making anyone do it, so less of the 'An Béal Bocht', please.

Indeed.
I work off farm myself and I’m not an IFA member, they have sat by and presided over the demise of family farms while infighting over six figure sum salaries and generous expenses, cozying up to the likes of Larry Goodman to get their easy money.

I also disassociate my self with the current tractorcade in Dublin disrupting ordinary workers going about their evening.

You see, it’s interesting to see when the “provocative” language is going in the other direction how uncomfortable people are with it all of a Sudden.

gozunda

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

The farmers who aren't in it for the money are driving tractors around Merrion Sq right now moaning about money and beef. Do they ever stop moaning? Clearly it's an oversaturated market. Change career. Then again by the look of these fellows I'm not sure what else they'd be cut out for.

Generalise much? The only ones I see are a few constantly moaning about farming are those who seem to like to project their own beliefs on others. Do the same ever stop moaning? Do they heck! One of the main issues is that many people want the best quality foodstuffs at rock bottom prices. Change that and we start to fix some of those problems. But then again by the sound of some the wingers I'm not sure they really give a fuk.

Hoboo

Xcellor wrote: »

Ah come on dairy, beef etc roam because we have grass, it grows, it's cheaper to feed. Grass fed is practical and cost effective - if it wasn't, it wouldn't be done.

What about pigs? How often do you see herds of pigs grazing the fields? Do we care less about their welfare? They are natural foragers why don't we see them in the green fields?

You never see pigs in fields, because of consumer demands for more for less, pigs are factory farmed. Yes we do care less about their welfare, the majority of people don't give a **** once they get a cheap breakfast roll. There are a few free range farms but people won't pay.

Grass is only part of the sheep and cattle diet. What you think they eat for 6 months when grass isn't growing? You don't just stick them in a field and they feed themselves for 18 months, then they drive themselves to the slaughterhouse, and you receive a wad of cash.

I think you're pulling my leg.

Lefty Bicek

_Brian wrote: »

Indeed.
I work off farm myself and I’m not an IFA member, they have sat by and presided over the demise of family farms while infighting over six figure sum salaries and generous expenses, cozying up to the likes of Larry Goodman to get their easy money.

I also disassociate my self with the current tractorcade in Dublin disrupting ordinary workers going about their evening.

You see, it’s interesting to see when the “provocative” language is going in the other direction how uncomfortable people are with it all of a Sudden.

No idea what you mean there. I'm obviously not a vegan, nor even a vegetarian if it comes to that.

An individual made an irrelevant sideswipe against unionised workers as part of a tearjerk about how poor, downtrodden farmers are the salt of the earth by comparison.

I'm not 'uncomfortable' with the language used, but I do think it was a petty, 'toys out of the pram' moment.

No more than I am uncomfortable with the vegan BS I've listened to. Uninformed emotive crap, not to be taken seriously. Simples.

Xcellor

_Brian wrote: »

This is pretty typical Extremist Vegan behaviour, insinuating a lie into something that’s not there.

Extremist? What nonsense. It seems extremist is just a label put on people who question the status quo.

What exactly did I lie about?

Xcellor

Hoboo wrote: »

You never see pigs in fields, because of consumer demands for more for less, pigs are factory farmed. Yes we do care less about their welfare, the majority of people don't give a **** once they get a cheap breakfast roll. There are a few free range farms but people won't pay.

Grass is only part of the sheep and cattle diet. What you think they eat for 6 months when grass isn't growing? You don't just stick them in a field and they feed themselves for 18 months, then they drive themselves to the slaughterhouse, and you receive a wad of cash.

I think you're pulling my leg.

So farmers don't care about welfare of animals if it impacts their bottom line. Pigs being kept in the conditions that are is inhumane but yet because consumers demand a cheap price to hell with welfare. You are confirming my point.

What do you think cattle/sheep are fed the other 6 months?

Graces7

The pattern is constant.

Proselityzing vegans assume that non vegans are totally ignorant about, if not to blame for, what goes on in meat production, farming etc.

So they wade in with a double dose of accusations. First re ignorance then with direct culpability for bad practices in farming. Reinforced by a lack of real knowledge especially when knowledgeable non vegans explain things.

Never occurs to them that we know and deplore bad practice.. that eg farmers really do care re the welfare of their critters...

Does nothing for their "cause". Most of us are intelligent and caring people and do all we can to avoid and eradicate bad practices.

Graces7

Xcellor wrote: »

So farmers don't care about welfare of animals if it impacts their bottom line. Pigs being kept in the conditions that are is inhumane but yet because consumers demand a cheap price to hell with welfare. You are confirming my point.

What do you think cattle/sheep are fed the other 6 months?

You mean farmers should not make the means to live and feed their families? OH DEAR!

Charles Babbage

How many vegans predominently consume food produced in Ireland? Meat eaten in Ireland is (or should be produced) in Ireland, and doesn't have air miles. Which is one reason why meat and diary plays a large part in the Irish diet.

Xcellor

Charles Babbage wrote: »

How many vegans predominently consume food produced in Ireland? Meat eaten in Ireland is (or should be produced) in Ireland, and doesn't have air miles. Which is one reason why meat plays a part in the Irish diet.

And how much beef gets exported or should we just forget about that? We produce significantly more beef than we consume. In fact sounds like China is to become the new "cash cow". That's a lot of air miles.

Also the beef that is produced depends on millions of tonnes of feed - it's base ingredients coming from South America.

It's then is manufactured and transported. Regardless of all that, even if all the cow eats is grass it still produces methane.

The tonnes of avocado + quinoa is TINY in comparison to the animal feed imported every year for animals.

Plumbthedepths

Xcellor wrote: »

And how much beef gets exported or should we just forget about that? We produce significantly more beef than we consume. In fact sounds like China is to become the new "cash cow". That's a lot of air miles.

Also the beef that is produced depends on millions of tonnes of feed - it's base ingredients coming from South America.

It's then is manufactured and transported. Regardless of all that, even if all the cow eats is grass it still produces methane.

The tonnes of avocado + quinoa is TINY in comparison to the animal feed imported every year for animals.

You do understand that we as an Island nation need to export to generate economic activity. Importing animal feed is no different than importing raw materials for the pharmaceutical industry to achieve a marketable finished product?

How much meat does Ireland import ?

Chicken ?

Beef ?

Pork ?

And from where ?

Isn’t meat used in the food industry (delis, restaurants, takeaways, catering and so on) usually imported ?

Thelonious Monk

Deleted User wrote: »

How much meat does Ireland import ?

Chicken ?

Beef ?

Pork ?

And from where ?

Isn’t meat used in the food industry (delis, restaurants, takeaways, catering and so on) usually imported ?

I always just assume any chicken used in Chinese take aways etc is from Thailand or Brazil or wherever they get it cheapest. I always order veggie from those places.

emaherx

Xcellor wrote: »

Also the beef that is produced depends on millions of tonnes of feed - it's base ingredients coming from South America.
The tonnes of avocado + quinoa is TINY in comparison to the animal feed imported every year for animals.

Any source for this? Annual feed imports are around between 3-5 million tonnes from 67 countries so how many million actually comes from South America. Most of our soy comes from the USA but not all imports are soy

Again you constantly put all of these imports on beef industry even though most is not used by beef producers. Pigs and chickens use the most imported feed but make up the smallest percentage of farms.

Thelonious Monk

emaherx wrote: »

Any source for this? Annual feed imports are around between 3-5 million tonnes from 67 countries so how many million actually comes from South America. Most of our soy comes from the USA but not all imports are soy

Again you constantly put all of these imports on beef industry even though most is not used by beef producers. Pigs and chickens use the most imported feed but make up the smallest percentage of farms.

According to this link it's mostly dairy, pigs and poultry

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/farming/we-depend-two-times-more-on-imported-animal-feed-than-our-neighbours-832683.html

And 90% of our imported feed comes from the Americas, although it doesn't specify where. Either way, we're importing lots of food to feed food, which seems ridiculous.

jimgoose

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

You do understand that we as an Island nation need to export to generate economic activity. Importing animal feed is no different than importing raw materials for the pharmaceutical industry to achieve a marketable finished product?

Well, I think the specific point being made is that importing this vast amount of animal feed material adds to the "air miles" of the otherwise low-impact locally-produced meat.

rhubarbcustard

rhubarbcustard wrote: »

I decided to open my mind after hearing about the health benefits of going veggie / vegan and I watched a number of films & shows on netflix with promoting veganism recently, ( Forks over knives, game changers, What the Health, and the episode of "Explained" that deals with Water)

There does not seem to be many films on places like Netflix from the opposite perspective though - so it is hard to be informed when we are being fed one side - through agenda driven propaganda works. Though I heard there is a film coming called "Sacred Cow" or something like that early next year from the other side.

Anyway I always love when I have never heard of something before and then suddenly hear about it from multiple unconnected sources all in the same week. You mentioned "Game changers" and then not days later a video discussing the honest errors - the dishonest lies - and the manipulative emotional moves - made in that film just happened to pop up on Joe Rogan's podcast.

Have only managed to look into 3 of the counter claims out of the _many_ that are made in that podcast so far. But so far it is 3 for 3 - the speaker has it right and the Game Changers movie has it wrong. Not sure how many more I will have time to look into myself. But the trend ain't looking great.

emaherx

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

According to this link it's mostly dairy, pigs and poultry

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/farming/we-depend-two-times-more-on-imported-animal-feed-than-our-neighbours-832683.html

And 90% of our imported feed comes from the Americas, although it doesn't specify where. Either way, we're importing lots of food to feed food, which seems ridiculous.

It says 90% of soyabean/ maize is imported from the Americas which is different.

emaherx

jimgoose wrote: »

Well, I think the specific point being made is that importing this vast amount of animal feed material adds to the "air miles" of the otherwise low-impact locally-produced meat.

True but trying to claim because we import some feed means that it all comes from the likes of Brazil which is significantly worse than just air miles is total BS.

I will agree with anyone here that we import far too much and from far too far away and imports from certain regions which have little consideration for the environment should be banned.

jimgoose

emaherx wrote: »

True but trying to claim because we import some feed means that it all comes from the likes of Brazil which is significantly worse than just air miles is total BS.

I will agree with anyone here that we import far too much and from far too far away and imports from certain regions which have little consideration for the environment should be banned.

Agreed. Most farmers I know would far, far rather be able to grow their own feed - buying it pisses them off, buying it from South America doubly so. In fact, that's why a lot of them spend considerable amounts of money renting extra land.

Antares35

I'll be totally honest and post without agenda. I was veggie and then vegan for many years, and probably would still be if most other people were (and if weren't subjected to mundane, predictable vegan bashing on a regular basis). Then I just realised that what I was doing was not making any difference really. I was just sad all the time that the world was still a sh*thole, and I wondered why I was concerned about animal welfare and the future while others happily and blissfully munched on spice bags. So I decided I might as well just not bother. A sort of "can't beat them so join them" thing I suppose. I guess as I got older I became less idealistic and realised there is no point trying to change the world or bothering myself about what others do. Plus I like meat and adore cheese. I hope lab meat takes off, but I don't think that will be enough to solve our problems. I'm due a child next year and perhaps then I will want to "make the world a better place" and all that "save the future for our kids" stuff that people go on about when they have their own, but for now, I simply do not care anymore.