Why aren't you a vegan!?

emaherx

jimgoose wrote: »

Agreed. Most farmers I know would far, far rather be able to grow their own feed - buying it pisses them off, buying it from South America doubly so. In fact, that's why a lot of them spend considerable amounts of money renting extra land.

The amount coming from Brazil in particular has dropped over recent years but imports from US are up 121%. Hardly good news from air miles perspective but still an improvement in carbon footprint.

But claims that all feed imports are for beef are wrong as are claims that 90% of imports are from the Americas much of it is imported from closer to home UK, France and Eastern Europe feature heavily.

Plenty of farms do produce all or very close to all of their own feed or choose to buy feed from more traditional grains sourced more locally.

Thelonious Monk

emaherx wrote: »

The amount coming from Brazil in particular has dropped over recent years but imports from US are up 121%. Hardly good news from air miles perspective but still an improvement in carbon footprint.

But claims that all feed imports are for beef are wrong as are claims that 90% of imports are from the Americas much of it is imported from closer to home UK, France and Eastern Europe feature heavily.

Plenty of farms do produce all or very close to all of their own feed or choose to buy feed from more traditional grains sourced more locally.

Why do they need to import so much? What did they do in the past before they were doing this? Or is it just we have so many cattle now that we can't grow enough food for them?

emaherx

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Why do they need to import so much? What did they do in the past before they were doing this? Or is it just we have so many cattle now that we can't grow enough food for them?

For cattle at least the truth is they don't, we have no more cattle than we had 50 years ago. Can't comment on the other livestock industries. Cheap high protein feeds get results quicker would be my best guess.

Xcellor

Antares35 wrote: »

I'll be totally honest and post without agenda. I was veggie and then vegan for many years, and probably would still be if most other people were (and if weren't subjected to mundane, predictable vegan bashing on a regular basis). Then I just realised that what I was doing was not making any difference really. I was just sad all the time that the world was still a sh*thole, and I wondered why I was concerned about animal welfare and the future while others happily and blissfully munched on spice bags. So I decided I might as well just not bother. A sort of "can't beat them so join them" thing I suppose. I guess as I got older I became less idealistic and realised there is no point trying to change the world or bothering myself about what others do. Plus I like meat and adore cheese. I hope lab meat takes off, but I don't think that will be enough to solve our problems. I'm due a child next year and perhaps then I will want to "make the world a better place" and all that "save the future for our kids" stuff that people go on about when they have their own, but for now, I simply do not care anymore.

So what happened to your personal moral objection with exploitation of animals? For me when it clicked it was a bit like pandoras box, I couldn't morally justify participating in it any longer.

Yeah bacon tastes good and yeah I loved a medium steak. I just don't need to eat it to survive and from a health perspective I was better off too.

Plumbthedepths

jimgoose wrote: »

Well, I think the specific point being made is that importing this vast amount of animal feed material adds to the "air miles" of the otherwise low-impact locally-produced meat.

It's a stupid point tbh.

jimgoose

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

It's a stupid point tbh.

I wouldn't say it's stupid, just not that important.

Plumbthedepths

jimgoose wrote: »

I wouldn't say it's stupid, just not that important.

We can agree to disagree.

Antares35

Xcellor wrote: »

So what happened to your personal moral objection with exploitation of animals? For me when it clicked it was a bit like pandoras box, I couldn't morally justify participating in it any longer.

Yeah bacon tastes good and yeah I loved a medium steak. I just don't need to eat it to survive and from a health perspective I was better off too.

Nothing. Like I said, I just don't think I can make a difference in the greater scheme of things. I'm well aware we are not obligate carnivores too.

Xcellor

Antares35 wrote: »

Nothing. Like I said, I just don't think I can make a difference in the greater scheme of things. I'm well aware we are not obligate carnivores too.

You probably can't make a difference in the greater scheme of things but why should that matter. If you believed that it was morally incorrect to take life just for taste pleasure what changed?

Antares35

Xcellor wrote: »

You probably can't make a difference in the greater scheme of things but why should that matter. If you believed that it was morally incorrect to take life just for taste pleasure what changed?

Why would you keep doing something if you know it won't make a difference anyway? I'm reminded of that phrase "well if everyone thought like that the world would be a terrible place" - well it turns out that most everyone thinks like that and it largely is a terrible place. I already said what changed - I realised that no matter what I did, the world is still basically a sh*thole, everyone out for themselves, depleting all of our resources, over population, mass consumerism. Why should I panic and sadden myself about orang-utans being displaced because manufacturers won't stop using palm oil? Why should I sadden myself dwelling on the recent news about a few hundred sheep that died when the boat carrying them capsized? Is it what I do or don't do that will change all that? No, I would just be volunteering for sorrow. I did that for long enough while most people chose not to give a sh*t. I couldn't care less if the world ends in a hundred years - at least then things can start again

Sir Guy who smiles

A lot of the animal feed imports would be reduced if the meat factories didn't insist on a carcass shape you can only get with breeds like charolais, and on animals being killed younger. It is impossible to fill these requirements just with grass.

If the factories didn't disincentivise them,more farmers could finish "British" breeds like Hereford and Angus which you could possibly bring up to slaughter weight on grass. You would also get a better tasting meat from these animals!

Xcellor

_Farah_ wrote: »

Do we have right to kill a living thing ?

- No we dont as long as we dont have a good enough reason.

Then why we are killing animals and eat them ?

- Because we have a good enough reason, we have to live and have to live healthy and we have to eat meat to achieve that.

But animals also have right to live as we have.

- Yes we both have right but human rights is one step ahead in this situation. Its like you are on the wheel of a truck going downhill with no breaks and the road splits into two ways, there are 10 people on the left side and there are two on the right side. We turn the wheel to the right side.

What if you didn't need to kill anyone? We don't need meat to be healthy / athletic / strong.

Irish vegan https://youtu.be/hmG1aX0cHj8 strong as ****.

If your example was life and death e.g. stuck on dessert island I could completely get behind that.

KSU

Xcellor wrote: »

The tonnes of avocado + quinoa is TINY in comparison to the animal feed imported every year for animals.

What about the detrimental affects this products are having on humans

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2019-11-20/mexico-cartel-violence-avocados

emaherx

Xcellor wrote: »

What if you didn't need to kill anyone? We don't need meat to be healthy / athletic / strong.

Irish vegan https://youtu.be/hmG1aX0cHj8 strong as ****.

If your example was life and death e.g. stuck on dessert island I could completely get behind that.

We don't kill anyone. You seem a bit confused.

gozunda

Xcellor wrote: »

So farmers don't care about welfare of animals if it impacts their bottom line. Pigs being kept in the conditions that are is inhumane but yet because consumers demand a cheap price to hell with welfare. You are confirming my point.
What do you think cattle/sheep are fed the other 6 months?

Complete and utter blollox. Farmers I know look after the welfare of their animals not only because it has to be done but also because its the right thing to do. If there are exceptions - then that is a case for dealing with it and not trying using the same old stick to beat everyone with and push a vegan agenda.

As to what cattle are fed:
Cattle are mainly fed fodder of different kinds when not outdoors. Supplementary feed is just that - supplementary. Do you understand that or just choose to be wilfully ignorant even though that has been explained many many times?

Xcellor wrote: »

And how much beef gets exported or should we just forget about that? We produce significantly more beef than we consume. In fact sounds like China is to become the new "cash cow". That's a lot of air miles. Also the beef that is produced depends on millions of tonnes of feed - it's base ingredients coming from South America.
It's then is manufactured and transported. Regardless of all that, even if all the cow eats is grass it still produces methane.
The tonnes of avocado + quinoa is TINY in comparison to the animal feed imported every year for animals.

Jesus those comments are like a busted drum. We export lots of things from Ireland. Agricultural exports are an important part of that. The bulk of which goes to our trading partners in the EU - for example in value terms over 93% of beef products are exported to countries within the EU (which also entails relatively low air miles). In total agricultural exports are worth over 12.5 Billion to the Irish economy. And no beef does not depend on "on millions of tonnes of feed ... coming from South America". Supplementary feedstuffs come from a number of sources including other countries in the EU and elsewhere but none of that suits the usual twisted propaganda does it ?

Forget just the ever increasing amounts of avocado and quinoa and add to that all the other cheap imported foods which you would like to replace high quality Irish produce and which in all likelihood will be imported from countries with few if any environmental or ethical standards. But hey let's ignore all that yeah!

Rufeo

Because i like steak.

Charles Babbage

jimgoose wrote: »

Well, I think the specific point being made is that importing this vast amount of animal feed material adds to the "air miles" of the otherwise low-impact locally-produced meat.

Ireland could probably feed itself a traditional diet without large imports of feed.

emaherx

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Ireland could probably feed itself a traditional diet without large imports of feed.

It could, it was mostly just meat/dairy spuds and a few other veg, don't think anyone here vegan vegetarian or omnivore would be happy with it now.

Xcellor

emaherx wrote: »

We don't kill anyone. You seem a bit confused.

He/She used an example where the option was killing one set of people or another and based on the lesser number you would choose that.

Slaughter houses won't exist without consumer demand. While very few of us will have to come face to face with the animal that ends up on the plate - it is killed and chopped up into pieces and neatly packaged and we are the ones paying for it. You seem a bit confused.

Xcellor

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Ireland could probably feed itself a traditional diet without large imports of feed.

And if it couldn't you could import far less quantities of fruits/vegetables/cereals and feed them directly to humans rather than animals we then eat.

Bass Reeves

Xcellor wrote: »

And if it couldn't you could import far less quantities of fruits/vegetables/cereals and feed them directly to humans rather than animals we then eat.

I would not be do sure. Ireland is good to grow root crops( potatoes, carrots parsnips etc), we are ok with berries but would need tunnell/glass production for over 2/3 of the year. Other fruit would be an issue we could not grow tropical fruit and would lads ray a James Grieve instead of a pink lady.

We struggle to grow grains because of our weather. Oats and barley are ok but wheat would fail at least one year in three. Most wheat grown in Ireland is winter wheat which is unsuitable for bread production.

The only protein crops we could grow would would be beans and peas.

Reviews and Books Galore

Xcellor wrote: »

What if you didn't need to kill anyone? We don't need meat to be healthy / athletic / strong.

Irish vegan https://youtu.be/hmG1aX0cHj8 strong as ****.

If your example was life and death e.g. stuck on dessert island I could completely get behind that.

I'm not sure it's healthy to be overloading your body with whey protein or plant protein in place of meat.



I was vegetarian (girlfriend) for a while, and I have noticed I have lost a lot of weight and am more 'healthy' after I started eating meat again. I was always hungry and I was replacing it with fruit.



Also, apparently you need 60 grammes of protein per day. Holy crap that's a lot.

auspicious

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

. I was always hungry and I was replacing it with fruit.



Also, apparently you need 60 grammes of protein per day. Holy crap that's a lot.

If I was meat eater and didn't eat enough meat I'd always be hungry too.


400g ( or a tin ) of cooked beans or lentils has about 35g of protein. Times that by two and you're good for 60g easy, plus the protein in the grains, grain products, nuts, seeds, veg.etc you eat on a daily basis.
Vital wheat gluten has approx 70g of protein per 100g; combined with lentils or beans the protein content is elevated even more.

Reviews and Books Galore

auspicious wrote: »

If I was meat eater and didn't eat enough meat I'd always be hungry too.


400g ( or a tin ) of cooked beans or lentils has about 35g of protein. Times that by two and you're good for 60g easy, plus the protein in the grains, grain products, nuts, seeds, veg.etc you eat on a daily basis.
Vital wheat gluten has approx 70g of protein per 100g; combined with lentils or beans the protein content is elevated even more.

I was including a lot of beans and cheese and rice and spices (which are high in protein stramgely), but I was still hungry. One aspect is that the higher fiber content actually pushes it out faster.



Honestly, I am speaking from experience. Sure, it's trendy to be vegan/vegetarian but it can lead to weight gain.

auspicious

I'm not sure about that. Fiber should make you feel fuller longer.
I find if I have three big meals then I'm never hungry. The first two of the day as close together as I can, say breakfast at 10 and dinner at 1 and a second dinner around 6. That's it for me. I don't snack or eat junk ( 'cept vegan Pringles when I'm drinking ).
(edit I'm a lean 165 lbs 5 foot 11)

Xcellor

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

I'm not sure it's healthy to be overloading your body with whey protein or plant protein in place of meat.



I was vegetarian (girlfriend) for a while, and I have noticed I have lost a lot of weight and am more 'healthy' after I started eating meat again. I was always hungry and I was replacing it with fruit.



Also, apparently you need 60 grammes of protein per day. Holy crap that's a lot.

Body builders whether vegan or otherwise tend to use supplementary protein powders etc. For the average joe soap they are completely unnecessary. Whey is a dairy protein so vegans wouldn't consume it.

I was vegan for a couple of months and was hungry and I lost weight. Then I realised I wasn't eating enough of the right stuff. Nuts and seeds are fantastic sources of protein.

Xcellor

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

I was including a lot of beans and cheese and rice and spices (which are high in protein stramgely), but I was still hungry. One aspect is that the higher fiber content actually pushes it out faster.



Honestly, I am speaking from experience. Sure, it's trendy to be vegan/vegetarian but it can lead to weight gain.

Do you mean weight loss?

Eating plant foods makes you feel fuller for longer.

I remember back in the day I'd polish off a couple of double cheese burgers and chips from mc donalds and still feel hungry. Even though the food is so calorie dense it doesn't occupy space in the stomach to send signals to the brain to say "You're full stop eating" also it can be eaten much quicker.

If you are eating a whole food plant based diet it is very hard to be overweight. Of course people are so used to seeing fat people when they see a person within the normal BMI they get called "weak/scrawny/unhealthy vegan". It is much better health wise to be underweight than the opposite.

Of course now "plant based" can have things like Impossible Burger, Beyond meat, donuts etc. You eat processed plant food it's gonna be bad for you long term. Saying that I had the Rebel whopper (0% beef) the other day and it was good.

Reviews and Books Galore

Different strokes, different folks, but my body does need meat protein.

Xcellor

auspicious wrote: »

If I was meat eater and didn't eat enough meat I'd always be hungry too.


400g ( or a tin ) of cooked beans or lentils has about 35g of protein. Times that by two and you're good for 60g easy, plus the protein in the grains, grain products, nuts, seeds, veg.etc you eat on a daily basis.
Vital wheat gluten has approx 70g of protein per 100g; combined with lentils or beans the protein content is elevated even more.

Studies have shown that vegans have higher amounts of blood protein than omnivores. So the "vegans cant get enough protein" is bogus. Vegans are better off if you are concerned about protein.

https://images.app.goo.gl/iB3gaJxPJGU45aL57

auspicious

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

I Sure, it's trendy to be vegan/vegetarian ....

It might be trendy for some to be plant based. But environmentalists and vegans adopt this diet for serious considerations.