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“Ireland has a rape culture”
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Silentcorner wrote: »If anyone can be assaulted, then why would it be stupid to teach kids than anyone can be assaulted, male or female, if the law doesn't recognize that women are capable of sexual assault doesn't mean it is right.
Well, duh. But you misread the post you quoted. I said anyone can be sexually assaulted. But only a man can commit a rape in Irish law. So it would be ridiculous to teach the law wrongly just to satisfy your personal preference. I gave my opinion on the lawSilentcorner wrote: »
Female sexual manipulation, whilst an uncomfortable topic, does affect people albeit a tiny minority, just like the tiny minority of women who will be subjected to rape, or the tiny minority of men who will be falsely accused of rape.
I don't want anything to be a blame game, the likes of you do...it is your hang ups that are the problem, you're inability to recognize that both genders have toxic elements....what is wrong with teaching kids how toxic behaviours of both genders will or can impact both men and women, gay or straight!
Now you and Reviews... are in disagreement on this point but you keep addressing your concerns to me. You’d be much better chatting to each other.
They don’t want any negative coverage of boys sexuality lest boys believe they’re rapists in the waiting. But you want to tech the “toxic” elements of both men and women.
I would take a different approach where I wouldn’t call boys rapists or women toxic manipulative people. I’d just talk about healthy and unhealthy behaviours. Unhealthy behaviours would include manipulation, controlling behaviours, abuse and violence etc.
I’m not sure if that’s not explicitly pointed enough for you. But I’d neither call men rapists or women manipulative creatures. I’d just talk about the behaviours and how to spot them and that’s they understand that they don’t deserve to be treated with those behaviours.0 -
Yeah men’s. groups would have to swim against the tide, just like all other rights groups. If they would be accepted with open arms from the beginning, there wouldn’t be need for their existence.Veritas Libertas wrote: »I'm sure they would happily give input if asked. The problem is since the #metoo era men have been told their opinion is no longer welcome by feminists.
Do you know the type of unfair stigma attached to men's groups?
Here is Jess Phillips laughing her ass off at the concept of discussing men's issues in the UK parliament.
It is quite hilarious while at the same time as espousing love, diversity and inclusion, these types will happily demonize men at the slightest opportunity.
I always find it really interesting that the fact that mens lobby groups would fact opposition, means some people think it is futile. Not so.
Obviously they would face opposition. So what?0 -
Veritas Libertas wrote: »I'm sure they would happily give input if asked. The problem is since the #metoo era men have been told their opinion is no longer welcome by feminists.
Do you know the type of unfair stigma attached to men's groups?
Here is Jess Phillips laughing her ass off at the concept of discussing men's issues in the UK parliament.
It is quite hilarious while at the same time as espousing love, diversity and inclusion, these types will happily demonize men at the slightest opportunity.
Yeah what a great guy, a lovely homophobe.
-In 2013, Davies voted against same-sex marriage
-In March 2019, Davies was one of 21 MPs who voted against LGBT inclusive sex and relationship education in English schools.0 -
The law here defines non-consensual sex as rape. So clearly consent is absolutely about rape, along with all the other attributes of being a decent considerate person.
Yeah and if you focus the whole discussion of consent around rape then you’d have a rape discussion. That’s not what I’m advocating for at all.
Consent is about ensuring a positive experience in sex (and lots of other areas of life). Of course the discussion would have to include the consequences of the absence of consent (rape). But if you only want to talk about rape, then you’ll get the rape discussion that some posters are so terrified of. And since only men can commit rape in Irish law, then it would be exactly the discussion that so many are terrified of (men are all potential rapists). And I would be opposed to that too.0 -
Veritas Libertas wrote: »I'm sure they would happily give input if asked. The problem is since the #metoo era men have been told their opinion is no longer welcome by feminists.
Do you know the type of unfair stigma attached to men's groups?
Here is Jess Phillips laughing her ass off at the concept of discussing men's issues in the UK parliament.
It is quite hilarious while at the same time as espousing love, diversity and inclusion, these types will happily demonize men at the slightest opportunity.
For example you can go on the house of commons website and search for testicular cancer and find out that it has been discussed and tabled especially in the early 2000's when they were in the early stages of implementing plans to raise awareness of this type of cancer. Testicular cancer is relatively uncommon whereas Breast cancer is the most common cancer hence why this 'woman's issue' is more prevalent (FYI men get breast cancer as well because you have chests) that's why it is discussed more often.0 -
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El_Duderino 09 wrote: »Yeah and if you focus the whole discussion of consent around rape then you’d have a rape discussion. That’s not what I’m advocating for at all.
Consent is about ensuring a positive experience in sex (and lots of other areas of life). Of course the discussion would have to include the consequences of the absence of consent (rape). But if you only want to talk about rape, then you’ll get the rape discussion that some posters are so terrified of. And since only men can commit rape in Irish law, then it would be exactly the discussion that so many are terrified of (men are all potential rapists). And I would be opposed to that too.
I genuinely think you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about in regards to consent classes.0 -
ILoveYourVibes wrote: »Catholic church.
Rape has never been acceptable within the Catholic Church, and you’ll be hard pressed to find any part in Catholic doctrine which suggests that rape is acceptable, let alone find any Catholics who have ever suggested that it’s permissible according to their doctrine tor Catholics to commit rape.
Trite soundbites like the above just thrown out there are precisely the reason why people don’t take nonsense like “rape culture” seriously, because it’s an obvious attempt to associate anything which offends that person’s sensitivities, with rape, which is still regarded by society as one of the most heinous offences against another person.If you dont know the poster in question, then you cannot say whether or not they are telling the truth or taking the piss.
I don’t know you either anewme, but I’ve always thought you made great points in any discussion and I’ve always given you the benefit of the doubt as opposed to assuming any ill intent on your part. I extend that same courtesy to anyone I don’t know, so when a poster comes out with a statement like that, I’m going to give them the same benefit of the doubt that they’re not a complete idiot and it was a poor attempt at employing satire to show the silliness of the term “rape culture”.If someone says they are going to commit suicide, you take them at face value and act accordingly.
You might, but I wouldn’t. Now I don’t know if before your training you would have taken them at face value, I’m assuming you would and that you didn’t have to be told you should. My point is that often people make the choice between doing what they have been trained to do, and what they actually believe they should do. I’ve received training in the area too, but when someone says to me they are going to take their own life, I’ve told them “off you ****!” I’ve never entertained the notion that anyone should ever use suicide as a means to manipulate people into capitulation. That’s acting accordingly in the same way as you would act accordingly based upon how you have been trained to act in those circumstances.
(I’m not even going to get picky with you about your use of the word “commit” in the context of suicide, I’ve met many trained social workers who still use those terms and aren’t even aware of it, but I still understand what they mean)If someone threats against anyones personal safety against you, you take them at face value and act accordingly. So if someone says they love raping, then they could well mean it. It's not your place to make assumptions. You also don’t know how the public would take that statement.
It is of course everyone’s place to make assumptions. People make assumptions about other people based upon a combination of their experiences and their knowledge. For example I’m assuming that you actually are trained in counselling, because from my own experiences of training in counselling and from having experience with a number of people working in the whole area of providing services to people who have been victims of rape, the language you’re using is the same sort of stuff that they come out with.
One can make assumptions too about how the public would take that statement. It’s not a leap to suggest that some people will take it literally, whereas more people will see it as a poor attempt at a joke. It’s kind of like when myself and one of my mates were in the club one night and she spotted a good looking guy, “I’d rape him” she said. It raised an eyebrow, nothing more, because I gave her the benefit of the doubt that she was joking. That’s acting according to how I assessed the situation. Pointing out that she was “perpetuating rape culture”, might also have been acting accordingly, but just like I don’t get my knickers twisted when someone uses the term “commit suicide”, I’m not inclined to get anxious when someone makes a joke. There’s no link whatsoever between making jokes about rape, and committing rape.Calling that deluded or dangerous says more about you.
I take it you don’t personally know Omackerel either, yet you’re willing to make assumptions about him based upon something he says, while telling him it isn’t his place to make assumptions about people he doesn’t know. How do you square that one with yourself? Genuinely I’m interested to understand because it appears very much like one rule for you and another for others, do as I say, not as I do type stuff.I'm not sure why you say I'm clinging to one point...I specifically commented on that aspect of this thread. That comments like that are inflammatory and add nothing to the discussion.
That’s precisely the point the poster was making in response to the idea of an inflammatory term like “rape culture”. What has using the term “rape culture” ever added to any discussion where people don’t agree the term should have any legitimacy? It’s fine among people who agree with the term and bandy it about to show how knowledgeable they are of systemic issues, but that’s about where it’s utility begins and ends - outside of a tiny minority of like minded individuals, the term is meaningless. It has no value and only serves to inflame a discussion and wind people up. It has never done anything to prevent rape, or to prevent people from being raped.
So why use the term rape when the actual meaning seems to be “everything I believe that contributes to rape”. That could literally be anything, and before you suggest it’s not meant to be taken literally, I’m aware that it’s not meant to be taken literally, just like I’m aware that I shouldn’t take them literally when someone says they like to rape, or someone says they’re going to take their own life, they might even say commit suicide as they may not have the training you or I have where we would use the term “die by suicide”, and even then they might still say commit suicide even though they didn’t mean it literally. Acting accordingly surely means acting based upon an assessment of context in which a person says something. It shouldn’t mean shìt gets lit up and we immediately assume the worst. That’s an irrational response and is often the response of people who use terms like “rape culture”, immediately assuming an association between someone making a joke about rape, to assuming they would actually commit rape. There’s a whole chasm of difference between the two and any link between them is manufactured by people based upon their assumptions. It sure as hell isn’t based upon reality.What part of this do you find as dangerous and deluded attitude exactly?
When it gets dangerous is when ideas like “rape culture” are used in the context of formulating legislation and policies governing society. The idea being to prohibit people from offending other people’s sensitivities. It certainly hasn’t been demonstrated that addressing what you term “rape culture” actually does anything to prevent rape.
I wouldn’t go so far as to say anyone who uses the term is deluded though, I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt that they’re not just attempting to wind people up, and when they are dismissed as idiots will attempt to suggest that their dismissal is yet another example of “rape culture” and thereby proving their point that a rape culture is actually a legitimate idea that deserves to be taken seriously by anyone else.Laws will change in relation to Social Media where people will be held accountable for what they write and trolls will end up being prosecuted.
Laws already exist in Ireland where people are held accountable for what they write. Boards has reminded posters of this on numerous occasions. Boards isn’t likely to contact Gardai in the event that someone makes a joke satirising the idea of “rape culture”, and doing so is precisely what makes the idea of “rape culture” dangerous. Bringing prosecutions against people for making jokes in poor taste is a waste of resources that neither the Gardai nor the State can actually afford to waste. I can think of a million things more worthwhile than wasting limited resources on such nonsense, like Simon Harris actually being made to fulfil his recent promises of more funding and resources for the national SATU service and actually implementing the recommendations in the departmental review -
https://www.imt.ie/features-opinion/satu-network-aims-treat-whole-person-27-06-2019/0 -
Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »I genuinely think you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about in regards to consent classes.
Of course I do. Some people think consent is all about rape.
I outlined some of the things I would want a consent discussion to cover. What do you think a consent discussion would cover?0 -
El_Duderino 09 wrote: »Of course I do. Some people think consent is all about rape.
I outlined some of the things I would want a consent discussion to cover. What do you think a consent discussion would cover?
A sex act without consent is rape.0 -
I’m not going to quote your entire post, one eyed Jack.
The point I’m making is that we don’t know if the poster was making a joke or not.
There are some topics you don’t joke about, rape being one.
My point to Omackeral is a fair one, I don’t think it’s harsh, you can’t question someone’s integrity and character and expect them just to accept it. I’ve asked him what exactly I’ve said in this thread about Rape culture that’s deluded or dangerous.?
How do you know it was a joke? You don’t.
Why do you think the poster was banned by the way?
Where in the thread have I said anywhere I believe that a Rape culture does exist? So I’m not sure why that’s being attributed to me.
Finally, if a friend or someone you know or someone you don’t know does confide in you or you read they are concerned about taking their life, please treat them with respect and don’t give the After Hours response.. “off you fck”0 -
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Hunky Monster wrote: »Here we go again... Ireland’s “rape culture” makes headlines yet again. Hey irish men, could you just stop raping women for five minutes please.
Hashtag mee too.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/ireland-has-a-rape-culture-woman-who-was-assaulted-calls-for-more-victim-protection-1.4033034
I don't think we do, South Africa has.0 -
Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »A sex act without consent is rape.
Yeah that’s a violation of consent. Any discussion of consent would have to cover rape. But that’s not the focus of the discussion.
What do you think consent is about and what would you focus on in a Discussion about consent?0 -
El_Duderino 09 wrote: »Yeah that’s a violation of consent. Any discussion of consent would have to cover rape. But that’s not the focus of the discussion.
What do you think consent is about and what would you focus on in a Discussion about consent?
I feel like I'm talking to a character on father ted :S0 -
Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »I feel like I'm talking to a character on father ted :S
Ok. The question I asked was:
What do you think consent is about and what would you focus on in a Discussion about consent? Seems a reasonable question given the topic and given the fact that you said I don’t know what it is. Feel free to have a go at answering the question.0 -
El_Duderino 09 wrote: »Ok. The question I asked was:
What do you think consent is about and what would you focus on in a Discussion about consent? Seems a reasonable question given the topic and given the fact that you said I don’t know what it is. Feel free to have a go at answering the question.
Have you taken a woman without consent in your definition?0 -
Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »Have you taken a woman without consent in your definition?
I’ll answer your question but I’ll ask you to answer mine first:
What do you think consent is about and what would you focus on in a Discussion about consent?0 -
El_Duderino 09 wrote: »Well, duh. But you misread the post you quoted. I said anyone can be sexually assaulted. But only a man can commit a rape in Irish law. So it would be ridiculous to teach the law wrongly just to satisfy your personal preference. I gave my opinion on the law
Now you and Reviews... are in disagreement on this point but you keep addressing your concerns to me. You’d be much better chatting to each other.
They don’t want any negative coverage of boys sexuality lest boys believe they’re rapists in the waiting. But you want to tech the “toxic” elements of both men and women.
I would take a different approach where I wouldn’t call boys rapists or women toxic manipulative people. I’d just talk about healthy and unhealthy behaviours. Unhealthy behaviours would include manipulation, controlling behaviours, abuse and violence etc.
I’m not sure if that’s not explicitly pointed enough for you. But I’d neither call men rapists or women manipulative creatures. I’d just talk about the behaviours and how to spot them and that’s they understand that they don’t deserve to be treated with those behaviours.
I didn't misread your post.
We both agree that both genders are capable of sexual assault, therefore it is not unreasonable to educate our children to that affect, regardless of the law, it is not illegal to bully another child but we educate our kids that bullying is wrong.
I don't disagree with you with regard to consent classes and how is best to educate our young people, what I would be concerned about is the motivations of the people who are shaping the narrative of these consent classes, Feminists should be kept away from the education of young men in particular as they have convinced themselves that gendered violence is one way and a consequence of patriarchal oppression, these unhinged individuals shouldn't be allowed near schools in my opinion let alone our young boys.0 -
El_Duderino 09 wrote: »I’ll answer your question but I’ll ask you to answer mine first:
What do you think consent is about and what would you focus on in a Discussion about consent?
Consent is about rape. That's my opinion0 -
Silentcorner wrote: »I didn't misread your post.
We both agree that both genders are capable of sexual assault, therefore it is not unreasonable to educate our children to that affect, regardless of the law, it is not illegal to bully another child but we educate our kids that bullying is wrong.
I don't disagree with you with regard to consent classes and how is best to educate our young people, what I would be concerned about is the motivations of the people who are shaping the narrative of these consent classes, Feminists should be kept away from the education of young men in particular as they have convinced themselves that gendered violence is one way and a consequence of patriarchal oppression, these unhinged individuals shouldn't be allowed near schools in my opinion let alone our young boys.
Question in relation to your comment on feminists, if you don’t mind?
What is your definition of a feminist?
Do you think there are a lot of them in education currently or would they turn upif there were consent classes scheduled.0 -
Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »Consent is about rape. That's my opinion
You’re wrong. Rape is only one aspect of consent. Consent is much more broad than rape.
But it’s no wonder you’re terrified of the discussion telling men they’re all potential rapists. That’s what a consent discussion designed by you, would be about.
The answer to the question you asked on your last post, is no. But with the benefit of hindsight and discussing consent, I probably did a bit more “ah go on” as a young lad than I should have.
I see consent as an important topic.0 -
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Question in relation to your comment on feminists, if you don’t mind?
What is your definition of a feminist?
Do you think there are a lot of them in education currently or would they turn upif there were consent classes scheduled.
Honestly, I have no idea what Feminism is anymore, it has moved away from it's dictionary definition, nobody seems to be able to define it which makes it handy for those who identify as one....you get to be an a la carte Feminist!
I fear radicals, in religion or ideology, feminism is an ideology, radicals hold unreasonable positions and tend to pursue power and influence, and children are often the battleground for these people. I fear that, and yes, absolutely, Radical Feminists are exactly the kinds of people who would seek to influence the narratives that are being forced to our children.
I was taught by a Feminist back in the 80s, now she was an excellent teacher and a very bright woman but she could not resist introducing feminist narratives every chance she could which was wrong, she would persistently remind us that girls were smarter than boys, more mature than boys etc etc...nowadays, I believe that it is far worse and I would be concerned for the welfare of our young boys in particular in this environment...there is a reason why girls are outperforming boys in our education system for several decades now and no one cares.0 -
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ILoveYourVibes wrote: »Catholic church.
I'm a Catholic. Most of my family are too. None of which have been molested, interfered with or have been raped or known to have raped another person. That is not our cultural set of values and beliefs which is thought and shared.
Again :Omackeral Past historical Church abuses does not equate to Modern Ireland having a rape culture. Next.0 -
cloudatlas wrote: »Rape is severe but what the people who coined the phrase are saying is that’s the apex of societal norms that promote a culture that allows dehumanising of women, normalising women as ‘others’ weak sluts who are only playthings for men. The woman in the article was used by the two men as a plaything not as a person, she was dehumanised, how did the guys who raped her get to the point where in their heads they formulated the decision to do what they did to another person. I know this is a stretch for you but it wasn’t because they were surrounded by respect for women. Reports of sexual assaults in the London Underground have gone up. Are all these men mentally ill outliers and rapists, not necessarily but they feel entitled to touch someone inappropriately without consent where does that ‘right’ come from? Please answer that. This isn’t a ‘debate’. Bleating about a term coined in the 1970’s that isn’t going to go away. It doesn’t matter what the term is you’d complain anyway if it was ‘a culture of misogyny’ ‘toxic masculinity’ no term would be to your liking and we’d always be stuck on ‘debating’ language and terms rather than debating why these things happen. But if we got to why it’s always that person was disturbed or mentally ill or sure it’s okay to say ‘sluts’ or sure she just had her leg and arse felt up in a club while she was ordering a drink it’s normal and doesn’t feed into and is not fed by any thing else because anything I do like grabbing a woman I’ve had no interaction with or calling women a slut is normal but those other guys are mentally ill.
By the way the term ‘loose’ is out of date and antiquated. What you’re talking about is ‘sex positive’ behaviour, but if you aren’t sex positive or afraid then it’s ‘loose’.
Also I don’t appreciate the censorship of language here by all the guys who are triggered snowflakes on this thread, reminds me of the gay marriage referendum where the use of The word homophobe was being censored by the conservatives who didn’t like their behaviour being named.
I don't think there is any point in me coming back to anything that you have said in the first paragraph, you have pretty much made up your mind on your stance. Good for you.
Thank you for updating my label vocabulary.
You don't have to appreciate anything, its a discussion forum. You might find the right kind of echo chamber that will re-enforce the attitudes and opinions you want on twitter.0 -
No no Omerackeral, lets be fair here. You are the person who questioned my integrity by saying:
"I hope you just trained and aren't trusted to advise or educate on these matters because your attitude is frankly deluded at best and dangerous at worst. "
Sorry for late response. My comment was based on you calling for the Gardai to be involved based on a poster's off-colour humour/post/whatever. If you, as a professional, think that's a fair and weighted response to an anonymous joke on boards.ie then it would worry me. It wasn't threatening, it wasn't directed at anyone. The mods carded the person and that's it. That's where my basis of saying what I said came from.0 -
Silentcorner wrote: »Honestly, I have no idea what Feminism is anymore, it has moved away from it's dictionary definition, nobody seems to be able to define it which makes it handy for those who identify as one....you get to be an a la carte Feminist!
I was wondering what people thought, so it’s an interesting answer. I would have thought similar. Was just wondering if people thought it was a normal woman who wants to work and not stay at home with children etc.0 -
This brilliant bit has me in stitches every single time. It goes to show how taboo it is i.e. not accepted. Would the gag work if he said ''there's been a murder up there?''. I don't think so. Rape is shocking. That's the point.
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Sorry for late response. My comment was based on you calling for the Gardai to be involved based on a poster's off-colour humour/post/whatever. If you, as a professional, think that's a fair and weighted response to an anonymous joke on boards.ie then it would worry me. It wasn't threatening, it wasn't directed at anyone. The mods carded the person and that's it. That's where my basis of saying what I said came from.
Thanks for the response.
We be already said we don’t know for definite it is a joke, so Im using my own judgement on it and reported the post. It could be taken differently by people who believe or agree with the sentiment. You don’t have to agree and that’s fair enough.
Anyway, no point in going on about it, as poster banned and it’s probably a different discussion about social media posts in general rather than the topic here.0 -
I was wondering what people thought, so it’s an interesting answer. I would have thought similar. Was just wondering if people thought it was a normal woman who wants to work and not stay at home with children etc.
Absolutely not, I can empathize with any mother of young children, some of whom would love to stay at home and rear them, and some who want to return to work as soon as they can...what we have is we quickly put all mothers in a position where they have to think about this under financial pressure which isn't right...I don't believe that in this country we do enough to support those women in whatever choice they make.
Staying at home can be rewarding but it will come at a cost down the road when they return to the workforce, I would like to see these women receive some kind reward for making that decision, be that free education to help them return to the workforce with more qualifications than they had when they left, which would benefit the family not just the mother.
I would also like to see the working mother supported better by the state in the form of affordable childcare, which would benefit all the family, not just the mother.0 -
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The more I think about the headline of that article, the more annoyed I get.
The liberals get upset now if you say a word out of place, or something even remotely controversial, but someone is allowed to say that an entire country has a rape culture, and go unchallenged.0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAW8Tzt28Ts
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