Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
“Ireland has a rape culture”
Options
Comments
-
How is it unchallenged?The more I think about the headline of that article, the more annoyed I get.
The liberals get upset now if you say a word out of place, or something even remotely controversial, but someone is allowed to say that an entire country has a rape culture, and go unchallenged.
Are you not here right now, "challenging" it?
I think what you mean to say is, "I am deeply offended by what this person has said and think they should not be allowed to say it"0 -
How is it unchallenged?
Are you not here right now, "challenging" it?
I think what you mean to say is, "I am deeply offended by what this person has said and think they should not be allowed to say it"
Again, it is the lack of balance in all of these narratives that is concerning, if you are going to present a viewpoint you should present an alternative, that is what a balanced media narrative would look like...
I can't get over the amount of people who are unable to recognize how unbalanced our media has become and what effect that has on public discourse!
This (as in Boards) is not mainstream media, it is an online forum, big big big difference and well you know it!0 -
I’m not going to quote your entire post, one eyed Jack.
The point I’m making is that we don’t know if the poster was making a joke or not.
There are some topics you don’t joke about, rape being one.
My point to Omackeral is a fair one, I don’t think it’s harsh, you can’t question someone’s integrity and character and expect them just to accept it. I’ve asked him what exactly I’ve said in this thread about Rape culture that’s deluded or dangerous.?
How do you know it was a joke? You don’t.
Why do you think the poster was banned by the way?
Where in the thread have I said anywhere I believe that a Rape culture does exist? So I’m not sure why that’s being attributed to me.
Finally, if a friend or someone you know or someone you don’t know does confide in you or you read they are concerned about taking their life, please treat them with respect and don’t give the After Hours response.. “off you fck”
We have very different standards anewme and that’s why we’re unlikely to reach any sort of an agreement here.
I do know that they were making a joke. I have no reason to think otherwise. I don’t think there’s anything that should be off-limits when it comes to people making jokes about it because you should know that’s precisely how some people cope with traumatic experiences. Telling people they can’t make jokes about something immediately inhibits their ability to communicate openly, honestly and authentically, in their own language, which doesn’t generally tend to be the same language used in a professional capacity when talking about these issues. That’s why I actually do question the wisdom of people who purport to be experts on the issue and the language they use to talk about these issues which is often very different to the language used by people who don’t have their training and qualifications. It’s precisely why I question the wisdom of Dr. Cliona Saidler suggesting that “we really need to say that young boys can also be a danger to young girls, it isn’t all just fun”. I don’t expect to question her authority to make such a statement and expect that she should just accept it, but it also for me at least calls into question her integrity and whether or not her interests are more in addressing issues in society with regards to rape and sexual violence, or is she more interested in promoting her own political and social beliefs. Because what she’s at there, leads to this kind of thing -
TUSLA: Playing a dangerous game with children’s lives
Those are the kinds of policies that come from promoting nonsense in Irish society about “rape culture”. I don’t expect you should understand, but just because you have qualifications and training in any given area, it doesn’t necessarily follow that your integrity should be beyond question. If you open that door, you have to be willing to accept that people have every right to question your integrity and character in the same way as you have every right to question theirs and suggest that Boards should capture their IP address and report them to the Gardai.
Why do I think the poster was banned? Likely because their intent was misinterpreted as making a joke about rape, when the way I interpreted it was they were making a joke about an individual’s take on what she calls “rape culture”. Boards have also reminded people on numerous occasions that there’s no such thing as freedom of speech on this site, and they are well within their rights to remove a posters ability to contribute to the site or to impose sanctions if they feel a poster is behaving like a dick. How they’re making those determinations appears to be all over the place these days, but that’s for another discussion.
Finally, how I treat anyone is a judgement call for me to make. I’ll take your advice in the spirit it was intended, but I see no reason to use it. If someone says to me that they are going to take their own life, then I have no respect for them whatsoever, nor do I have any concern for their welfare. My response of “off you fcuk” has always been based upon the fact that I have no respect for anyone who expresses to me that they are contemplating taking their own life. The After Hours response lately appears to be of the more along the lines of suggesting that suicide should be socially acceptable. It’s a detachment from reality that’s prevalent among people who refer to themselves as “professionals” and “experts” too, much like the detachment from reality in suggesting that people shouldn’t make jokes about things which society finds distasteful or disturbing. The reality is that they do, because the narrative being portrayed in the article in the opening post is only one perspective, and if you want to actually address social issues such as rape and sexual assault, then getting hung up on policing language and saying it’s unfair that people question your integrity is making any discussion all about you having your say and you not having to listen to what other people are actually trying to communicate to you in their own way because they’re not communicating as you would want them to, in language you understand, using your preferred terms.
If people questioning your integrity offends you or you think it’s unfair, then surely it is incumbent upon you to extend that same courtesy you expect people to give you, to other people who don’t share your perspective, given you don’t know anything of them either? At least that’s holding people to the same standards as you expect you should be treated.0 -
I've trained in a professional capacity in this area and everything you and Wibbs are saying here is totally against what I've been trained in.
How do you know better than professionals?
Argumentum ab auctoritate - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority
There's many "professionals" that disagree with you. So just saying you're a professional doesn't make your argument automatically valid or correct.0 -
How is it unchallenged?
Are you not here right now, "challenging" it?
I think what you mean to say is, "I am deeply offended by what this person has said and think they should not be allowed to say it"
I can guarantee you if this woman appeared on any RTe radio or TV show, she could say that and not be challenged. Fact.
I wonder did the reporter who spoke to her for the article even address this, or are they just happy they got another clickbait item for their website?0 -
Advertisement
-
Argumentum ab auctoritate - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority
There's many "professionals" that disagree with you. So just saying you're a professional doesn't make your argument automatically valid or correct.
To be fair to her, anewme didn’t actually make an argument from authority. She made the point that she has received training in the area and the training she has received goes against what other posters are saying. I’m no fan of pissing contests where someone just says that “as a <insert whatever here>”, as that constitutes an argument from authority in attempting to lend their opinions more weight, but what anewme did was simply pointing out that what other people are saying contradicts her training in the area and questioning why other posters would contradict the opinions of people who are experts in the area whom she has received training from.
It’s a valid point to make and a legitimate question to ask, in the same way as you’re pointing out that there are experts in the area who disagree with the experts anewme has received her training from. If someone is going to put forward an opinion then they should expect to be questioned as opposed to anything they say simply being taken at face value, especially if they’re putting their opinions out there on social media where they are in the public domain.0 -
El_Duderino 09 wrote: »You’re wrong. Rape is only one aspect of consent. Consent is much more broad than rape.
But it’s no wonder you’re terrified of the discussion telling men they’re all potential rapists. That’s what a consent discussion designed by you, would be about.
The answer to the question you asked on your last post, is no. But with the benefit of hindsight and discussing consent, I probably did a bit more “ah go on” as a young lad than I should have.
I see consent as an important topic.
What in the world are you going on about? If you break 'consent' then it is rape. You can't belittle people by saying they are 'breaking consent' to promote good behaviour and talk about things that are not breaking consent. It's just a haphazard way of training somebody and bellitling the breaking of consent.
Goodness gracious, I feel like I'm talking to some kind of sockpuppet who's trying to amplify voices. You're funny, don't get me wrong, and you're kind of admirable, but, as I said before, I genuinely don't think you have any opinion of your own.
I also find it disturbing that you have admitted to pressuring a women into sexual activities.
But, as I am vaguley interested, what would you teach in consent classes?0 -
I was wondering what people thought, so it’s an interesting answer. I would have thought similar. Was just wondering if people thought it was a normal woman who wants to work and not stay at home with children etc.
I see a feminist as somebody who sees sexism as benefiting men and sees gender relations in a top down manner with men at the top and women at the bottom.
Even in the best intentions, it's a bad mindset to have when educating boys.0 -
-
-
Advertisement
-
A woman who was drugged and raped nearly two decades ago in a Waterford hotel has called for more protections for sexual assault victims.
Writing on Twitter this week to mark the anniversary of what happened to her, Linda Hayden said she never reported it to gardahen, or since, saying she refused to give her attackers “power over me”.
Ms Hayden had stayed up with her brother for a late drink after a wedding but believes her drink was “spiked” later by two men who “picked me out of that crowded lobby” and waited for the drug “to kick in”.
“I remembered two men holding me up in a corridor in the hotel and my head was heavy.
“We met a member of staff who asked where they were taking me and they said ‘She’s locked, we’re taking her to her room’.
“The next thing I remember is coming to during it and crying out because I didn’t know where I was and what was happening to me. I was saying ‘Please, stop’.
“I must have passed out after that.”
She woke up at 6.30pm: “I tried to get out of bed and fell to the floor.
“I wasn’t able to stand so I had to crawl to the bathroom and into the shower where I just sat for ages trying to clear my head.”
Having told no one, six months later, she went to a sexual health clinic where she was diagnosed with gonorrhoea and genital warts that she believes have left her infertile.
Ms Hayden’s marriage a few years later to “the first guy that asked me” lasted only five years before collapsing, and she still suffers, she says, from depression and anxiety.
Often, court cases and media coverage imply that women “need to mind yourselves if you’re going out for drinks, you might get raped”, but men will get the benefit of the doubt, if they “come from good stock”.
Later, she forgave her attackers : “My dad – he’s a survivor of clerical child sex abuse – said, in order to move on you have to forgive or you’ll be stuck with that anger forever. So I forgave them; they had no power over me anymore.”
Re-traumatised
The nine-week long 2018 Belfast rape trial “re-traumatised” her and many other victims, she said.
“I was so angry, I needed to do something.”
The day after it ended she set up the Action Against Sexual Violence Ireland group.
Since speaking out on Twitter, Ms Hayden has been contacted by about 50 women and men, including those who have self-harmed, or those with loved ones who were attacked “but who do not know how to speak to them about it”.
The review into the conduct of rape trials is welcome, but taking too long, while the media should avoid shaming victims.
Consent classes should be given in primary schools, she believes.
Nearly two decades on, Ireland still has “a rape culture”, she says.
“If you post on Twitter about rape, people accept it but if you say it to someone’s face they don’t know how to respond.”0 -
Thanks.
That is some very selective quoting by the "journalist" TBF.
Either way she was drugged and gang raped by the sounds of it, it's no surprise her opinion could be a little colored.
She needs to be pitied more than ridiculed.0 -
Of course its a terrible event and is life changing, but to state the country has a rape culture is still way off the mark.0
-
Thanks.
That is some very selective quoting by the "journalist" TBF.
Either way she was drugged and gang raped by the sounds of it, it's no surprise her opinion could be a little colored.
She needs to be pitied more than ridiculed.
I dunno, if a man was gang raped by an african man, would you let him educate young black men not to rape?
A bad thing may have happened to her, though there is no proof, but it does not mean we should always see her through the lens of the bad thing.0 -
Of course its a terrible event and is life changing, but to state the country has a rape culture is still way off the mark.
If some of the earlier posting on the thread is true she is someone who has obviously suffered allot from what happened. There is a risk when we discuss topics like this we focus so hard on the broader view that we forget about the people behind it.
I think the bigger picture to look at here is the media who continually run these stories from a perspective that is click bait and drives division.0 -
Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »I dunno, if a man was gang raped by an african man, would you let him educate young black men not to rape?
I'm struggling to see what the nationality of someone has to do with it, TBH.
But if a man was gang raped he is entitled to tell his story and hold an opinion, forgive the turn of phrase but he has earned it.
That doesn't mean anyone has to agree with him though. It also doesn't mean he should be torn apart and ridiculed either.0 -
Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »What in the world are you going on about? If you break 'consent' then it is rape. You can't belittle people by saying they are 'breaking consent' to promote good behaviour and talk about things that are not breaking consent. It's just a haphazard way of training somebody and bellitling the breaking of consent.
Goodness gracious, I feel like I'm talking to some kind of sockpuppet who's trying to amplify voices. You're funny, don't get me wrong, and you're kind of admirable, but, as I said before, I genuinely don't think you have any opinion of your own.
I also find it disturbing that you have admitted to pressuring a women into sexual activities.
But, as I am vaguley interested, what would you teach in consent classes?
I’m genuinely surprised that you think consent is all about rape. Why would you call it a consent discussion and not a rape discussion? I’m pretty sure the other posters know that you’re only looking at one aspect of consent, But they won’t go against the narrative.
I admit that I said “ah go on” when I was young. Maybe you never did anything like that as a young lad. Maybe you’re playing holier than thou for the sake of the discussion.
What would include for the consent discussion? I’ve answered this in other posts (posts which you’ve quoted so I doubt you actually read them before disagreeing with them).
To answer the question again, I would include the discussion about consent as part of an ongoing discussion on sex, sexuality, relationships.
It would cover: the concept of consent,
what it means to consent and how to think about what you’re comfortable doing or not doing and why.
How consent is communicated, seeking consent, giving consent and receiving consent.
What to do if you change your mind having previously given consent and what to do if someone withdraws consent.
How consent works over time. Can consent be assumed tomorrow because it was given Today?
How to deal with pressure, both internal and external.
And yes, of course, the consequences of violating consent. Consequences in terms of the harm you can cause to another person and legal consequences.
That’s not an exhaustive list but it gives a good overview.
So what would a consent class designed by you consist of? I imagine it would be all about rape. But I’d be interested to know what you think.0 -
The chan chan man wrote: »Careful...there once was a boy who cried wolf..
I detest this kind of statement.
It's like "careful now calling rape culture or we might rape you".
Kind of proves the point if anything. :rolleyes:0 -
I'm struggling to see what the nationality of someone has to do with it, TBH.
But if a man was gang raped he is entitled to tell his story and hold an opinion, forgive the turn of phrase but he has earned it.
That doesn't mean anyone has to agree with him though. It also doesn't mean he should be torn apart and ridiculed either.
I was trying to tie it into how black male sexuality was tied into the rape and there are movements to turn it into somehting better and more in the black man's power.
Yeah, I think if it leads into rascism/ shaming half the population, he has not 'earned it'.0 -
One eyed Jack wrote: »To be fair to her, anewme didn’t actually make an argument from authority.I've trained in a professional capacity in this area and everything you and Wibbs are saying here is totally against what I've been trained in.
How do you know better than professionals?
I believe the bold is the argument to authority; how do you know better than the professionals(like me) that also hold my opinion.
If such a statement is made, I believe it only fair for anewme to mention where or who conducted this training.
Then at least it would advance this tangent of conversation.0 -
Advertisement
-
cloudatlas wrote: »Yeah what a great guy, a lovely homophobe.
-In 2013, Davies voted against same-sex marriage
-In March 2019, Davies was one of 21 MPs who voted against LGBT inclusive sex and relationship education in English schools.
Expected response these days. Attack the character and not the argument. I made a thread about this called 'intellectual dark web'.- Back in 2004, when Hilary Clinton was a senator from New York, she opposed a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage.
- "I believe that marriage is not just a bond but a sacred bond between a man and a woman," she said.
More people would have voted against that bill in 2019, as Davies did, if they weren't afraid to be labelled all sorts of homophobic slur words, just like you did in the 8th word of your post.0 -
Veritas Libertas wrote: »Expected response these days. Attack the character and not the argument. I made a thread about this called 'intellectual dark web'.
- Back in 2004, when Hilary Clinton was a senator from New York, she opposed a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage.
- "I believe that marriage is not just a bond but a sacred bond between a man and a woman," she said.
More people would have voted against that bill in 2019, as Davies did, if they weren't afraid to be labelled all sorts of homophobic slur words, just like you did in the 8th word of your post.
That's because if they did then of course they'd be labelled homophobes because that is homophobic. I like the title of your thread 'intellectual dark web' very fancy sounding, that's what you were aiming for right? Also Davies made his comments this year, Hilary Clinton changed her mind, must we condemn her forever. As far as I know Mr. Davies has not rolled back any of his backward and outdated opinions. Any way I don't support the Clintons nor did I post a video of Hilary Clinton so I don't quite know why you brought it up. Very strange.0 -
Veritas Libertas wrote: »I believe the bold is the argument to authority; how do you know better than the professionals(like me) that also hold my opinion.
If such a statement is made, I believe it only fair for anewme to mention where or who conducted this training.
Then at least it would advance this tangent of conversation.
I’ve trained in a professional capacity in the area too. In the same way as I wouldn’t call myself a professional, I don’t assume that means anewme was suggesting she was a professional either, that “(like me)” was your own additional interpretation of what was said. I don’t expect anyone to divulge where or whom they received their training from as I’m already familiar with what the training involves that she is referring to based upon her opinions.
That’s all I’m interested in, is a persons opinion, I’m not interested in their qualifications. That’s why I said I’m not interested in pissing contests. At least anewme’s opinions are a lot closer to being grounded in reality as opposed to being based upon ideological nonsense. Dr. Clíona Saidléar is the Executive Director of RCNI, a professional in the area, and she comes out with all sorts of nonsense for which there is no evidence whatsoever to support her personal beliefs like when she says that girls should be taught that boys are a danger to them.
It’s opinions like that which cause a 7 year old boy’s name to be stored in TUSLAs records in perpetuity, a label hanging over the boy which will undoubtedly follow him around and be used against them at some point in the future. That’s what makes ideas like “rape culture” dangerous, because setting the bar that low isn’t acting in society’s best interests. It’s serving the interests of a small number of “professionals” who appear to have no interest in serving the needs of the people they claim to be advocating for. These “professionals” don’t appear to care about the actual reality of how many peoples lives are ruined in the promotion of their despicable ideology.0 -
El_Duderino 09 wrote: »I’m genuinely surprised that you think consent is all about rape. Why would you call it a consent discussion and not a rape discussion? I’m pretty sure the other posters know that you’re only looking at one aspect of consent, But they won’t go against the narrative.
I admit that I said “ah go on” when I was young. Maybe you never did anything like that as a young lad. Maybe you’re playing holier than thou for the sake of the discussion.
What would include for the consent discussion? I’ve answered this in other posts (posts which you’ve quoted so I doubt you actually read them before disagreeing with them).
To answer the question again, I would include the discussion about consent as part of an ongoing discussion on sex, sexuality, relationships.
It would cover: the concept of consent,
what it means to consent and how to think about what you’re comfortable doing or not doing and why.
How consent is communicated, seeking consent, giving consent and receiving consent.
What to do if you change your mind having previously given consent and what to do if someone withdraws consent.
How consent works over time. Can consent be assumed tomorrow because it was given Today?
How to deal with pressure, both internal and external.
And yes, of course, the consequences of violating consent. Consequences in terms of the harm you can cause to another person and legal consequences.
That’s not an exhaustive list but it gives a good overview.
So what would a consent class designed by you consist of? I imagine it would be all about rape. But I’d be interested to know what you think.
I really didn't. If the woman isn't into it, I handle my own business or, if my needs aren't being met, I find another woman.
I'm not going to pressure a women into sex or say 'ah go on' in the most sleaziest way imaginable while imagining I'm a casanova. I also find it really suprising that you're describing it as 'holier than thou' not to pressure a woman into sex and shows a lot about yourself,, how you see yourself and how the women in your life see you.
Wolf in sheep clothing indeed.0 -
Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »I really didn't. If the woman isn't into it, I handle my own business or, if my needs aren't being met, I find another woman.
I'm not going to pressure a women into sex or say 'ah go on' in the most sleaziest way imaginable while imagining I'm a casanova. I also find it really suprising that you're describing it as 'holier than thou' not to pressure a woman into sex and shows a lot about yourself,, how you see yourself and how the women in your life see you.
Wolf in sheep clothing indeed.
Ok. So what would you include consent discussion?0 -
Veritas Libertas wrote: »Expected response these days. Attack the character and not the argument. I made a thread about this called 'intellectual dark web'.
- Back in 2004, when Hilary Clinton was a senator from New York, she opposed a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage.
- "I believe that marriage is not just a bond but a sacred bond between a man and a woman," she said.
More people would have voted against that bill in 2019, as Davies did, if they weren't afraid to be labelled all sorts of homophobic slur words, just like you did in the 8th word of your post.
Did it ever occur to you that the reason Jess philips laughed is because about 70% of M.P's are male so to suggest that there isn't a male perspective in the house of commons or that male issues aren't discussed is absolutely absurd and a special comittee to discuss women's issues is required to ensure that there is a space where a female perspective on female issues such as the tampon tax etc., are discussed you know things that don't impact men. If it was the reverse.....0 -
cloudatlas wrote: »Did it ever occur to you that the reason Jess philips laughed is because about 70% of M.P's are male so to suggest that there isn't a male perspective in the house of commons or that male issues aren't discussed is absolutely absurd and a special comittee to discuss women's issues is required to ensure that there is a space where a female perspective on female issues such as the tampon tax etc., are discussed you know things that don't impact men. If it was the reverse.....
I’d say all that is true. I’d also say that laughing at the idea of any group having group specific concerns, is wrong and an MP should do better.
The actual concerns that affect men are valid and any normal woman would be fine with supporting them. Things like Male mental health and suicide, men falling behind in education.
It’s when the people pushing the issues are really only concerned about sticking the boot into feminism, that problems arise.
It came up last international men’s day in November. Out for Friday pints after work and someone mentioned IMD. One of the women said “shur, every day is men’s day haha” there were 3 blokes at the table who were quick to respond and said there were serious issues for men. Suicide. Education and fathers and decent men who struggle to see their children.
It was good natured but she took it back straight away. Said she hasn’t considered it as being that serious and we laughed it off. Jobs oxo. Promoting awareness of serious men’s issues with absolutely no mention of feminism.0 -
El_Duderino 09 wrote: »I’d say all that is true. I’d also say that laughing at the idea of any group having group specific concerns, is wrong and an MP should do better.
The actual concerns that affect men are valid and any normal woman would be fine with supporting them. Things like Male mental health and suicide, men falling behind in education.
It’s when the people pushing the issues are really only concerned about sticking the boot into feminism, that problems arise.
It came up last international men’s day in November. Out for Friday pints after work and someone mentioned IMD. One of the women said “shur, every day is men’s day haha” there were 3 blokes at the table who were quick to respond and said there were serious issues for men. Suicide. Education and fathers and decent men who struggle to see their children.
It was good natured but she took it back straight away. Said she hasn’t considered it as being that serious and we laughed it off. Jobs oxo. Promoting awareness of serious men’s issues with absolutely no mention of feminism.
I think her point was that those issues are covered already due to the presence of 70% male mps in context it was fine to laugh as that guy Davies as he is known as a massive troll who is known for ‘fillibustering’ gives long winded speeches in Meetings with the expressed strategy of preventing votes on the bill as time runs out, very undemocratic he’s stopping a majority of men from voting as well. You can easily go to the House of Commons website and search for all of those issues you mentioned, they are well covered, lack of representation means you have to make concessions to those groups not represented. I doubt Jess Philips was laughing at male suicide, testicular cancer victims but that’s what it’s been twisted to mean. In context the reaction was perfectly fine and you know full well that his comments weren’t innocent and he was sneering at a woman’s committee as he has a track record of homophobic, misogynistic nonsense. Context is key.0 -
Hunky Monster wrote: »Here we go again... Ireland’s “rape culture” makes headlines yet again. Hey irish men, could you just stop raping women for five minutes please.
Hashtag mee too.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/ireland-has-a-rape-culture-woman-who-was-assaulted-calls-for-more-victim-protection-1.4033034
Here we go again alright. You're terrible sensitive.0 -
Advertisement
-
Galwayguy35 wrote: »Rapists are scum, 99% of men agree with this.
For this so called rape culture to exist the majority of men would feel it's ok to rape women, this isn't the case so it's just another term put out there by man hating radfems.
No, you need a few to sigh 'here we go again' they can still dislike rape and be part of the problem. 'Rape is terrible, but what was she wearing?'0
Advertisement