“Ireland has a rape culture”

Silentcorner

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Consent should be included in teaching about sex, relationships and sexuality. So age appropriate discussion of consent should begin in primary school. It’s a pretty important concept and lots of people’s understanding of consent is very fuzzy.

I wouldn't have a huge problem with consent classes.

But are we going to teach our kids that it is only women that can be victims of sexual misadventure/assault?

Are we going to teach kids about female manipulation and how it relates to sexual relationships? Or the dysfunction (sexual violence and intimate partner violence) of Lesbian Relationships?

Are we going to lift the lid on the human flaws of one gender or both genders?

suicide_circus

Silentcorner wrote: »

Are we going to lift the lid on the human flaws of one gender or both genders?

these are kids we're talking about, lets not get too nuanced. Keep the narrative simple. One sided and simple.

hetuzozaho

Silentcorner wrote: »

I wouldn't have a huge problem with consent classes.

But are we going to teach our kids that it is only women that can be victims of sexual misadventure/assault?

Is that what some of the curriculum you've seen has been doing? I did a quick Google but can't really see what is being taught, have you a link?

ILoveYourVibes

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Presumably we also have a shoplifting culture? and a violent assault culture? Probably 50 other cultures too.

We are very cultured.

We do.

We also have a rape culture. But its not pleasant to talk about and its upsetting for both genders in different ways understandably so we don't talk about it. Or I don't.

I know its there though.

And yes anyone who has worked in retail will tell you there IS a shoplifting culture. Its cool for teens to try it. They even do it on dares etc.

El_Duderino 09

Silentcorner wrote: »

I wouldn't have a huge problem with consent classes.

But are we going to teach our kids that it is only women that can be victims of sexual misadventure/assault?

Are we going to teach kids about female manipulation and how it relates to sexual relationships? Or the dysfunction (sexual violence and intimate partner violence) of Lesbian Relationships?

Are we going to lift the lid on the human flaws of one gender or both genders?

Well anyone can be sexually assaulted. But it would be stupid to teach that a woman can rape a man because the law in Ireland doesn’t currently cognise the concept of a woman raping a man.

I’d have thought domestic violence would arise. If you want it to be a blame game, then I think you might be very disappointed. Why would you want it to be a blame game ?

I’d say it domestic abuse would arise but why would you want specifically to highlight “female sexual manipulation”? Why not just discuss the concept of manipulation and controlling behaviours in relationships?

Children don’t have all the hang ups you carry. I wouldn’t be inclined to pass your hang ups to them.

I’d make it fairly gender neutral and explain the concepts. I’d also support changing the rape law in Ireland to reflect the shared responsibility of consent.

suicide_circus

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

We do.

We also have a rape culture. But its not pleasant to talk about and its upsetting for both genders in different ways understandably so we don't talk about it. Or I don't.

I know its there though.

And yes anyone who has worked in retail will tell you there IS a shoplifting culture. Its cool for teens to try it. They even do it on dares etc.

Culture

noun
1.
the arts and other manifestations of human intellectual achievement regarded collectively.
"20th century popular culture"
2.
the ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society.
"Afro-Caribbean culture"

ILoveYourVibes

suicide_circus wrote: »

2.
the ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society.
"Afro-Caribbean culture"

Yes and there is definitely a 'shoplifting culture' in some parts of dublin.

suicide_circus

We may have a "crime culture" among a small percentage of the population but to claim that every different type of crime constitutes its own culture is just daft

ILoveYourVibes

suicide_circus wrote: »

We may have a "crime culture" among a small percentage of the population but to claim that every different type of crime constitutes its own culture is just daft

Its not at all daft and is very much the truth.


Our banking world had a culture that led to a number of crimes. Our political culture led to Charles Haughey.

Its a very different culture to the shoplifting culture on O'Connell or Henry street though.

Different rules and social behaviors.

Omackeral

anewme wrote: »

So, the poster who writes, I love raping is using dark humor but the poster who asks do you know this for definite must be deluded.

Is that really all you can cling to? I don't know the poster that said that. I said I figured they're using dark humour. I don't know them obviously. I sincerely doubt that they a) love raping or b) would be openly saying it if they did.

Now, how about addressing some of the other points made? How is there a rape culture when every part of society abhors rapists? Why do sex offenders require their own protective status in prisons? The fact that we can joke about murdering a curry no bother but saying a team ''got raped'' in the football is no-no tells us quite a bit doesn't it. Rape is beyond the pale in nearly every facet of Irish life hence we do not have a rape culture.

Omackeral

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Consent should be included in teaching about sex, relationships and sexuality. So age appropriate discussion of consent should begin in primary school. It’s a pretty important concept and lots of people’s understanding of consent is very fuzzy.

I've no real issues with this. The issue starts when proponents for same add the caveat that ''young men need to'' or ''we owe this to our girls'', which you often see. It should be either for everyone or no-one.

hetuzozaho

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Its not at all daft and is very much the truth.


Our banking world had a culture that led to a number of crimes. Our political culture led to Charles Haughey.

Its a very different culture to the shoplifting culture on O'Connell or Henry street though.

Different rules and social behaviors.

And the Paddy Jackson WhatsApp group had a culture too. One that we could do without imo. Not one that would fly in the couple of groups I'm part of.

Omackeral

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

We do.

We also have a rape culture.

How? Explain. Who accepts it? What groups advocate it? Where are their meet-ups? Where is it openly tolerated in society?

Omackeral

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Yes and there is definitely a 'shoplifting culture' in some parts of dublin.

Right. Let's suppose that's true. Where is rape acceptable?

ILoveYourVibes

Omackeral wrote: »

Right. Let's suppose that's true. Where is rape acceptable?

Catholic church.

Omackeral

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Catholic church.

Past historical Church abuses does not equate to Modern Ireland having a rape culture. Next.

anewme

Omackeral wrote: »

anewme wrote: »

So, the poster who writes, I love raping is using dark humor but the poster who asks do you know this for definite must be deluded.

Is that really all you can cling to? I don't know the poster that said that. I said I figured they're using dark humour. I don't know them obviously. I sincerely doubt that they a) love raping or b) would be openly saying it if they did.

If you dont know the poster in question, then you cannot say whether or not they are telling the truth or taking the piss.

If someone says they are going to commit suicide, you take them at face value and act accordingly. If someone threats against anyones personal safety against you, you take them at face value and act accordingly. So if someone says they love raping, then they could well mean it. It's not your place to make assumptions. You also don’t know how the public would take that statement.

Calling that deluded or dangerous says more about you.

I'm not sure why you say I'm clinging to one point...I specifically commented on that aspect of this thread. That comments like that are inflammatory and add nothing to the discussion.

What part of this do you find as dangerous and deluded attitude exactly?

Laws will change in relation to Social Media where people will be held accountable for what they write and trolls will end up being prosecuted.

El_Duderino 09

Omackeral wrote: »

I've no real issues with this. The issue starts when proponents for same add the caveat that ''young men need to'' or ''we owe this to our girls'', which you often see. It should be either for everyone or no-one.

Sure and of course, I didn’t say any of that because that’s not what I’d want.

So we know the feminists will be interested in shaping any potential course. At the moment there Is no equivalent men’s lobby group unfortunately.

Omackeral

anewme wrote: »

If you dont know the poster in question, then you cannot say whether or not they are telling the truth or taking the piss.

If someone says they are going to commit suicide, you take them at face value and act accordingly. If someone threats against anyones personal safety against you, you take them at face value and act accordingly. So if someone says they love raping, then they could well mean it. It's not your place to make assumptions. You also don’t know how the public would take that statement.

Calling that deluded or dangerous says more about you.

I'm not sure why you say I'm clinging to one point...I specifically commented on that aspect of this thread. That comments like that are inflammatory and add nothing to the discussion.

Laws will change in relation to Social Media where people will be held accountable for what they write.

Ok, we've been over that now a few times. The fact that the poster was red carded for saying that about rape shows it's not acceptable anyway, which kind of lends support to the theory that rape isn't acceptable. So, where is rape and its customs and traditions acceptable?

anewme

Omackeral wrote: »

anewme wrote: »

If you dont know the poster in question, then you cannot say whether or not they are telling the truth or taking the piss.

If someone says they are going to commit suicide, you take them at face value and act accordingly. If someone threats against anyones personal safety against you, you take them at face value and act accordingly. So if someone says they love raping, then they could well mean it. It's not your place to make assumptions. You also don’t know how the public would take that statement.

Calling that deluded or dangerous says more about you.

I'm not sure why you say I'm clinging to one point...I specifically commented on that aspect of this thread. That comments like that are inflammatory and add nothing to the discussion.

Laws will change in relation to Social Media where people will be held accountable for what they write.

Ok, we've been over that now a few times. The fact that the poster was red carded for saying that about rape shows it's not acceptable anyway, which kind of lends support to the theory that rape isn't acceptable. So, where is rape and its customs and traditions acceptable?

No no Omerackeral, lets be fair here. You are the person who questioned my integrity by saying:

"I hope you just trained and aren't trusted to advise or educate on these matters because your attitude is frankly deluded at best and dangerous at worst. "

I am trained in dealing with and following up on what is written. I have assisted people in very dangerous situations by doing this, so I take exception to your comments.

I’ve asked you three times now, what exactly did I write in this thread that is dangerous and deluded?

I commented on the post in question and not beyond that.

I dont want to take the thread off kilter, but you have made some serious allegations about my integrity and professionalism which I'm now asking you to justify and stand over.

cloudatlas

Calhoun wrote: »

Well then as i said we really are trying to undermine the severity of the act in and of itself by trying to nail on every possible slight on women equating to it.

I can understand if a person committed the act and those comments were used to describe the victim. In that case we agree that is rape culture but if a person calls another loose in one form of the other i don't think its the same thing. Especially calling someone a bitch that doesn't make sense at all.

Rape is severe but what the people who coined the phrase are saying is that’s the apex of societal norms that promote a culture that allows dehumanising of women, normalising women as ‘others’ weak sluts who are only playthings for men. The woman in the article was used by the two men as a plaything not as a person, she was dehumanised, how did the guys who raped her get to the point where in their heads they formulated the decision to do what they did to another person. I know this is a stretch for you but it wasn’t because they were surrounded by respect for women. Reports of sexual assaults in the London Underground have gone up. Are all these men mentally ill outliers and rapists, not necessarily but they feel entitled to touch someone inappropriately without consent where does that ‘right’ come from? Please answer that. This isn’t a ‘debate’. Bleating about a term coined in the 1970’s that isn’t going to go away. It doesn’t matter what the term is you’d complain anyway if it was ‘a culture of misogyny’ ‘toxic masculinity’ no term would be to your liking and we’d always be stuck on ‘debating’ language and terms rather than debating why these things happen. But if we got to why it’s always that person was disturbed or mentally ill or sure it’s okay to say ‘sluts’ or sure she just had her leg and arse felt up in a club while she was ordering a drink it’s normal and doesn’t feed into and is not fed by any thing else because anything I do like grabbing a woman I’ve had no interaction with or calling women a slut is normal but those other guys are mentally ill.

By the way the term ‘loose’ is out of date and antiquated. What you’re talking about is ‘sex positive’ behaviour, but if you aren’t sex positive or afraid then it’s ‘loose’.

Also I don’t appreciate the censorship of language here by all the guys who are triggered snowflakes on this thread, reminds me of the gay marriage referendum where the use of The word homophobe was being censored by the conservatives who didn’t like their behaviour being named.

Danzy

suicide_circus wrote: »

these are kids we're talking about, lets not get too nuanced. Keep the narrative simple. One sided and simple.

Problem is that the activist left will have a very large Influence on the curriculum.

The same loopers who would have been Jesuits years ago, bringing the same mess in the end.

Silentcorner

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Well anyone can be sexually assaulted. But it would be stupid to teach that a woman can rape a man because the law in Ireland doesn’t currently cognise the concept of a woman raping a man.

I’d have thought domestic violence would arise. If you want it to be a blame game, then I think you might be very disappointed. Why would you want it to be a blame game ?

I’d say it domestic abuse would arise but why would you want specifically to highlight “female sexual manipulation”? Why not just discuss the concept of manipulation and controlling behaviours in relationships?

Children don’t have all the hang ups you carry. I wouldn’t be inclined to pass your hang ups to them.

I’d make it fairly gender neutral and explain the concepts. I’d also support changing the rape law in Ireland to reflect the shared responsibility of consent.

If anyone can be assaulted, then why would it be stupid to teach kids than anyone can be assaulted, male or female, if the law doesn't recognize that women are capable of sexual assault doesn't mean it is right.

Female sexual manipulation, whilst an uncomfortable topic, does affect people albeit a tiny minority, just like the tiny minority of women who will be subjected to rape, or the tiny minority of men who will be falsely accused of rape.

I don't want anything to be a blame game, the likes of you do...it is your hang ups that are the problem, you're inability to recognize that both genders have toxic elements....what is wrong with teaching kids how toxic behaviours of both genders will or can impact both men and women, gay or straight!

Reviews and Books Galore

Hmmmm, consent sounds good at practice but it shouldn't be about female belittlement. e.g. If a woman has had a few pints she can't consent, but a man can.



Also, I am uncomfortable about showing young men that they're sexuality is something to be afraid of and animalistic, or portraying young female sexuality as having links to rape. It seems disturbing that the first exposure to sex that a young man will have will be tied to a violent crime. and, you know, it might suprise some people but a man can be more than just a potential rapist.



Also, I wonder what the effect this will have on male suicides if such an integral part of someone's personality is being tied into rape and shamed in the worst way that is possible? But, carry on. That doesn't really matter.

Reviews and Books Galore

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Well anyone can be sexually assaulted. But it would be stupid to teach that a woman can rape a man because the law in Ireland doesn’t currently cognise the concept of a woman raping a man.

I’d have thought domestic violence would arise. If you want it to be a blame game, then I think you might be very disappointed. Why would you want it to be a blame game ?

I’d say it domestic abuse would arise but why would you want specifically to highlight “female sexual manipulation”? Why not just discuss the concept of manipulation and controlling behaviours in relationships?

Children don’t have all the hang ups you carry. I wouldn’t be inclined to pass your hang ups to them.

I’d make it fairly gender neutral and explain the concepts. I’d also support changing the rape law in Ireland to reflect the shared responsibility of consent.

...I don't really like qouting you, but the bolded part is pretty strange and morally absent.

El_Duderino 09

Danzy wrote: »

Problem is that the activist left will have a very large Influence on the curriculum.

The same loopers who would have been Jesuits years ago, bringing the same mess in the end.

And instead of any men’s groups giving any input, the men who pretend to be interested will wait until it’s too late and complain about the outcome.

El_Duderino 09

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

...I don't really like qouting you, but the bolded part is pretty strange and morally absent.

Glad you could overcome your aversion.

It’s just the law currently. I stated my preference at the end of the post you quoted.

El_Duderino 09

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

...
It seems disturbing that the first exposure to sex that a young man will have will be tied to a violent crime. and, you know, it might suprise some people but a man can be more than just a potential rapist.



Also, I wonder what the effect this will have on male suicides if such an integral part of someone's personality is being tied into rape and shamed in the worst way that is possible? But, carry on. That doesn't really matter.

Lol. Consent isn’t about rape. It’s about ensuring a positive experience for the people involved. And making sure they are in control over what they do.

I can see why you’re worried if you’re focused on rape and men being rapists. If to focus on that stuff ( which your post is exclusive focused on) then you’d get what you’re most afraid of.

Veritas Libertas

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

And instead of any men’s groups giving any input, the men who pretend to be interested will wait until it’s too late and complain about the outcome.

I'm sure they would happily give input if asked. The problem is since the #metoo era men have been told their opinion is no longer welcome by feminists.

Do you know the type of unfair stigma attached to men's groups?
Here is Jess Phillips laughing her ass off at the concept of discussing men's issues in the UK parliament.

It is quite hilarious while at the same time as espousing love, diversity and inclusion, these types will happily demonize men at the slightest opportunity.

alastair

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Lol. Consent isn’t about rape. It’s about ensuring a positive experience for the people involved. And making sure they are in control over what they do.

I can see why you’re worried if you’re focused on rape and men being rapists. If to focus on that stuff ( which your post is exclusive focused on) then you’d get what you’re most afraid of.

The law here defines non-consensual sex as rape. So clearly consent is absolutely about rape, along with all the other attributes of being a decent considerate person.