Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

FrancieBrady

Bambi wrote: »

Do the people of Ireland or the Irish Government get any say in whether this hard border will appear in four years time?

Answer is no

Thats a strawman made of brick, blow harder

We had no say if an WA could not be reached. Hobson's choice.

We compromised and technically gave little away - as evidenced by the DUP reaction.

Headshot

Deleted User wrote: »

Why, NI has effectively become a DMZ between the UK & EU, would be a great place to "repackage" goods to meet the standards of the other side.

Business rely on a stable long term plan, this will counter productive for them.

We constantly hear from businesses in the UK that they cant plan for the future because they don't know what is happening with Brexit, this is similar to what's going to happen in NI

Infini

irishfeen wrote: »

"6. For the purposes of paragraph 5, cross-community support means:

(a) a majority of those Members of the Legislative Assembly present and voting,
including a majority of the unionist and nationalist designations present and voting;
or

(b) a weighted majority (60%) of Members of the Legislative Assembly present and
voting, including at least 40% of each of the nationalist and unionist designations
present and voting"

This actually looks better than it initially sounds it means they need at least 40% of both sides or more than half of both sides in order to affect any change to the arrangements, if one side abstains the vote automatically fails to change anything by the sounds of it. Maybe thats why our good old Dumbass Fleg Party doesnt like it they cant force any change they need to get the other side to agree!

Professor Moriarty

GM228 wrote: »

Not necessarily, if the Government want it passed and it's a tie than Bercow would be obliged to vote no as opposed to vote with the Government, important decisions must only be made by the majority so when there is a tie he must reject. He stated this earlier this year.

The primary principle of convention (Dennison) states that he should vote to ensure further debate.

Jamiekelly

Bambi wrote: »

Do the people of Ireland or the Irish Government get any say in whether this hard border will appear in four years time?

Answer is no

Thats a strawman made of brick, blow harder

The people of NI get a say by electing MLA's that will vote on it, as it should be. The Irish Government have no say in the running of Northern Ireland and under the terms GFA, our constitution had to be amended to release any claim the Irish government had to NI and it's running. We had a vote on that and it passed. Do you not see the contradictions in your many different positions you've espoused over the last few pages? It seems to me that you are being contrarian just for the sake of it.

The real irony of it all is the Irish government DID get a say in whether a hard border will appear in NI. If it didn't compromise at this point in time a hard border would have been enacted in 4 weeks, not 4 years. For someone who seems to be so concerned with a hard border being enacted you appear to be blaming the Irish government and the EU for compromising in the first place. Which is it that you care more about? Because judging by your replies to Moriarity you don't actually seem all that concerned about a border at all, just at the notion that the Brits got a compromise and the Irish government looked weak.

GM228

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

The primary principle of convention (Dennison) states that he should vote to ensure further debate.

It also states when there is an important decision such as policy issues or a major decision (like Brexit for example) that only a majority can decide and so you must vote no.

How does voting yes afford further debate on the WA?

Hurrache

Bambi wrote: »

Do the people of Ireland or the Irish Government get any say in whether this hard border will appear in four years time?

Answer is no

Thats a strawman made of brick, blow harder

Under what conditions will a hard border be erected in 4 years time ? You've claimed this several times but have yet to say how.

Dyr

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Then you should have said AFD not "Nazis". Fifth time:

Under what circumstances will NI vote to impose a hard border?

Still haven't admitted that you could not have forseen any of those events. So lets just take that you believe you could and now have no credibility.

The circumstances in which Norn Irish MLAs will vote for a hard border is really simple. A simple majority of them want it.
For me is that's as simple as all it takes for a united ireland, a simple majority in a border poll. "It could never happen" bollox to that on both counts, it could.



Current arithmetic in stormont is 40 unionist MPs, 39 nationalist MPs and 11 non aligned but frankly non-aligned is Alliance which is a very soft vote. Can unionists dominate stormont again? It's possible but unlikely in the short term.


All it takes is for the Nationalist vote to be split again (as was very common until recently) or for SF to screw the pooch (which they're currently doing) and you're looking at very dicey arithmetic in the assembly.


It's also possible that the continuation of this arrangement will drift the North towards a UI but yesterday it was impossible for Stormont to impose a hard border and today it is. Nice one

Dyr

Hurrache wrote: »

Under what conditions will a hard border be erected in 4 years time ? You've claimed this several times but have yet to say how.

Read back.

Hurrache

Bambi wrote: »

Read back.

No point because the answer is not there, it's just your assumption.

At least read Connelly's thread on the process.

Mr.Nice Guy

Turns out loyalists, rather than blaming the Tories for shifting away from the main unionist party, have found the real culprits. Wait for it...republicans.

https://twitter.com/JamieBrysonCPNI/status/1184903234311348224

https://twitter.com/LurganSpade/status/1184879890249781249

https://twitter.com/StephenNolan/status/1184594258180919298

Some were speculating earlier that the DUP might be hit in the polls in a future election. I don't expect that. The loyalists have already decided that this arrangement has been brought about not because of Tory duplicity, but because of threats from dissidents.

There will always be the Republican bogeyman and the DUP will play right into the siege mentality in an upcoming election. And it will likely work out for them.

Imreoir2

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Speaker has casting vote?

Yes, but convention is for the speaker to always vote against any proposal in the event of a tie, it is not for the speaker to make up the houses mind for it.

Dyr

Jamiekelly wrote: »

The Irish Government have no say in the running of Northern Ireland and under the terms GFA

TBH I stopped reading after the first sentence. Read the GFA again. Pay attention to Tier three. Then read the wording of the referendum with regard to the amendments being dependent on the GFA

Imreoir2

Infini wrote: »

This actually looks better than it initially sounds it means they need at least 40% of both sides or more than half of both sides in order to affect any change to the arrangements, if one side abstains the vote automatically fails to change anything by the sounds of it. Maybe thats why our good old Dumbass Fleg Party doesnt like it they cant force any change they need to get the other side to agree!

No, that section is for deciding if an extension is for eight years instead of four. If a simple majority votes to leave the arangement, then it passes and is put into effect two years later.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Why, NI has effectively become a DMZ between the UK & EU, would be a great place to "repackage" goods to meet the standards of the other side.

Headshot wrote: »

Business rely on a stable long term plan, this will counter productive for them.

We constantly hear from businesses in the UK that they cant plan for the future because they don't know what is happening with Brexit, this is similar to what's going to happen in NI

That's true of most larger companies, but small companies and some larger companies can be very flexible, especially if their business model requires low skilled staff and simple accommodation. A warehouse type business could be up and running in weeks.

axer

I think this deal is a bit disappointing. A hard border will affect the republic too but we have given the decision as to whether it happens or not solely to the north. If a hard border comes about we will also be affected by the violence and associated crime that comes with terrorism that could erupt along with the economic repercussions. The UK didn't have any power here when it comes to these negotiations, the EU and Ireland should have stuck with the backstop approach rather than this messy new "solution". We will have uncertainty on this island for years to come as a result of this deal.

Frank Bullitt

https://twitter.com/BBCNewsNI/status/1184864463167676417

The DUP so concerned about something that they didn't want in the first place.

Professor Moriarty

Bambi wrote: »

Still haven't admitted that you could not have forseen any of those events. So lets just take that you believe you could and now have no credibility.

The circumstances in which Norn Irish MLAs will vote for a hard border is really simple. A simple majority of them want it.
For me is that's as simple as all it takes for a united ireland, a simple majority in a border poll. "It could never happen" bollox to that on both counts, it could.



Current arithmetic in stormont is 40 unionist MPs, 39 nationalist MPs and 11 non aligned but frankly non-aligned is Alliance which is a very soft vote. Can unionists dominate stormont again? It's possible but unlikely in the short term.


All it takes is for the Nationalist vote to be split again (as was very common until recently) or for SF to screw the pooch (which they're currently doing) and you're looking at very dicey arithmetic in the assembly.


It's also possible that the continuation of this arrangement will drift the North towards a UI but yesterday it was impossible for Stormont to impose a hard border and today it is. Nice one

If the nationalist vote splits, it is irrelevant. Nationalists will never vote for a hard border. Alliance (Remain party) will never vote for a hard border. Neither will some unionists. The voting trend is towards the centre (DUP -7%, UUP -6%) which means that the Alliance party is burgeoning (+12%). Demographics are against unionism, for instance, younger voters tend to be less hardline than older voters.

Well played Leo.

Imreoir2

Bambi wrote: »

TBH I stopped reading after the first sentence. Read the GFA again. Pay attention to Tier three. Then read the wording of the referendum with regard to the amendments being dependent on the GFA

In politics, you must assess risk and make pragmatic choices. Under this deal the risk of a hard border is vastly less than without this deal. Should Ireland and the EU have taken the risk that there would be a hard border either in two weeks, or in a few months had they held out on the backstop?

I don't think that would have been a wise choice.

Headshot

Gintonious wrote: »

https://twitter.com/BBCNewsNI/status/1184864463167676417

The DUP so concerned about something that they didn't want in the first place.

That's rich alright. They hate the GFA, they cannot stand it but they love bringing it into play when it suits their agenda.

They are vile party that are stuck in the dark ages and needs to be put back in their box never to be heard from

gooch2k9

Gintonious wrote: »

https://twitter.com/BBCNewsNI/status/1184864463167676417

The DUP so concerned about something that they didn't want in the first place.

Absolutely no reflection on who it is who is selling them down the river. They're like a child holding onto the UK's ankles.

To admit that the English have thrown them under the bus blows their raison d'etre out of the water.

Kermit.de.frog

Arlene seems to think the deal won't pass.

But it's already looking VERY close and before Johnson starts the charm offensive on other MPs.

I predict this will pass on Saturday.

Headshot

Headshot wrote: »

You have to love Juncker when asked about the 48% of the UK voting to stay in the EU

"They were right"

lol

I found the video

older by the day

gooch2k9 wrote: »

Absolutely no reflection on who it is who is selling them down the river. They're like a child holding onto the UK's ankles.

To admit that the English have thrown them under the bus blows their raison d'etre out of the water.

As bad as the DUP, this has proved that a Sinn Fein vote is a wasted vote. I'd say if the 6 county's sank over night. England or Ireland would not kill themselves searching for it.

Frank Bullitt

https://twitter.com/JamieBrysonCPNI/status/1184872071291166723



Will he still go I wonder?

I think it will be down to the number who abstain when it comes to voting, many labour MPs who have large leave constituencies will not want to go into the next GE knowing they went against their wishes.

Dyr

Imreoir2 wrote: »

In politics, you must assess risk and make pragmatic choices. Under this deal the risk of a hard border is vastly less than without this deal. Should Ireland and the EU have taken the risk that there would be a hard border either in two weeks, or in a few months had they held out on the backstop?

I don't think that would have been a wise choice.

For the last three years it was the risk their entire strategy was built around accepting. That if the Brits caused a hard border then so be it but they would not compromise on the backstop. You may have noticed Leo being quite vocal on the subject during the summer

That tune changed yesterday. Personally I think because EU got the compromises they wanted in other areas.

At least you admit the tune changed, you've some strange sorts of reverse brexiteers around here trying to deny the reality that:

The deal will give the Stormont Assembly the ability to impose a hard border by leaving the arrangement.

The Irish Government rolled back on their red line

Weird carry on tbh

Kermit.de.frog

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Arlene seems to think the deal won't pass.

But it's already looking VERY close and before Johnson starts the charm offensive on other MPs.

I predict this will pass on Saturday.

ERG’s Andrew Bridgen on board. Nicholas Soames says he will vote for the deal too. If BJ can pull all the Tory factions together, then its the Brexit leaning Labour MPs who want a deal that will decide this.

Headshot

Guys when will we know the possible amendments for Saturday?

Dyr

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

If the nationalist vote splits, it is irrelevant. Nationalists will never vote for a hard border. Alliance (Remain party) will never vote for a hard border. Neither will some unionists. The voting trend is towards the centre (DUP -7%, UUP -6%) which means that the Alliance party is burgeoning (+12%). Demographics are against unionism, for instance, younger voters tend to be less hardline than older voters.

Well played Leo.

Well at least you've shifted from denying its even possible to denying that its likely. I actually agree that it is unlikely but to a far less degree than you think it is

If the nationalist vote is split then you will have less nationalist MLAs returned and more Unionist MLAs returned, as happend in the early days of the Assembly.

Demographics has been delivering a united ireland for two decades now and its as far away as ever. Demographics will not deliver it, a seismic event that will force people into a binary choice will. Same with a Unionist Majority in Stormont.