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Turas Nua
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dhaughton99 wrote:A properly managed Jobbridge. Yes, the original was being abused, mostly by schools and health, the same way they use and abuse TUS. But properly policed, it could help the long term.
I think the tus and ce schemes are a waste of time. A bloke who is a good friend of my dad was telling me the other day he is trying to get his 21 year old son on a ce scheme. The kid has never worked before and is now going to be on the non ending cycle of ce schemes for the rest of his life. This would be my point in the jobpath. People talk about figures and how it shouldnt be run by a private organisation, but how many move from ce or tus into ft employment?
Fact is if jobbridge was run by jobpath it would probably be more sucessful.
I know paying companies is seen as a waste but if we pay companies to do this it incentivises them to get people into work. Where public run systems have no such incentive.
Is jobpath being done properly? Probably not. But most of the criticism comes from people with an agenda. Aparantely out of 20,000 people that have been sent in its existence there have been 200 actual complaints. 200. For a programme that is mandatory! The issue is probably more down to the fact the success stories are not talked about.
Id personally have people working schemes on a mandatory basis if they are long term unemployed. We can talk about bad luck and all that but there is a lot of work out there now. I personally find it difficult to get staff. It annoys me when i hear people say there are no jobs because i have been trying to hold onto staff for the last year or so but anyone who comes in doesnt want to work. And i am really good to my staff.0 -
I think the tus and ce schemes are a waste of time. A bloke who is a good friend of my dad was telling me the other day he is trying to get his 21 year old son on a ce scheme. The kid has never worked before and is now going to be on the non ending cycle of ce schemes for the rest of his life. This would be my point in the jobpath. People talk about figures and how it shouldnt be run by a private organisation, but how many move from ce or tus into ft employment?
Fact is if jobbridge was run by jobpath it would probably be more sucessful.
I know paying companies is seen as a waste but if we pay companies to do this it incentivises them to get people into work. Where public run systems have no such incentive.
Is jobpath being done properly? Probably not. But most of the criticism comes from people with an agenda. Aparantely out of 20,000 people that have been sent in its existence there have been 200 actual complaints. 200. For a programme that is mandatory! The issue is probably more down to the fact the success stories are not talked about.
Id personally have people working schemes on a mandatory basis if they are long term unemployed. We can talk about bad luck and all that but there is a lot of work out there now. I personally find it difficult to get staff. It annoys me when i hear people say there are no jobs because i have been trying to hold onto staff for the last year or so but anyone who comes in doesnt want to work. And i am really good to my staff.
As of 3 months ago 206,000 people had been referred to JobPath. Only 11k of them have gotten sustained employment out of it. A success rate of 5.5% is a failure rate of 94.5%, thats absolutely shocking given the current successful economy.
And all of this at a cost to the Irish taxpayer of €150mn+. There is no way to argue that this is good value for money for the Irish state.
"the success stories not being talked about" is not the issue. The verifiably, statistically, awful success story rate is.0 -
Yes, the service was a joke. Its a private for profit company that still wouldn't leave you alone if you got a job by yourself because they wanted the credit so they could get their payout from our taxes.
All you have to do is read through this thread to see the many grievances and stress the cause people. When I was unemployed myself I got involved with FAS and was back working in no time with the upskilling and work experience I gained.0 -
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So what will replace it? Or do you think nothing will?
Real question. What would you guys like to see replace it? How would you deal with long term unemployed who cant seem to get a job for whatever reason?
There should be centers run by SW where people can drop in for help and advice while looking for work, it would be far more palatable than being forced to attend a money hungry gang of fraudsters like Seetec/Turas nua who's only interest is making handy money from the government with no regard for the people who are, or should I now say ,were forced to attend..The idea itself didn't seem too bad to me until I had to attend them. I was only out of work a month having worked in a job for 32 years, so much for being long term unemployed..The lady I was dealing with was very pleasant but she was gone after a few weeks and I was then dealing with an ignoramus bollix who actually forged my signature on a contract and hounded my employer when I took up a new job obviously to claim a bonus for his UK bosses ..The long time unemployed who never seem to work? Well I don't know of many like that but maybe they should be put on illness payments because they obviously must be sick in the head if the prefer living on a pittance rather than being out working and earning a week's pay..0 -
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It would probably cost more in the long run but maybe having a Green Job Guarantee whereby people on social welfare could be offered a minimum wage job from the government working as environmental workers doing things like reforesting/rewinding Ireland, installing solar onto roofs & retrofitting buildings, community garden schemes to grow food(fruit&veg) for their village, etc.0
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It would probably cost more in the long run but maybe having a Green Job Guarantee whereby people on social welfare could be offered a minimum wage job from the government working as environmental workers doing things like reforesting/rewinding Ireland, installing solar onto roofs & retrofitting buildings, community garden schemes to grow food(fruit&veg) for their village, etc.
That sounds like a fantastic idea!Mitch Hedberg: "Rice is great if you're really hungry and want to eat two thousand of something."
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It would probably cost more in the long run but maybe having a Green Job Guarantee whereby people on social welfare could be offered a minimum wage job from the government working as environmental workers doing things like reforesting/rewinding Ireland, installing solar onto roofs & retrofitting buildings, community garden schemes to grow food(fruit&veg) for their village, etc.It would probably cost more in the long run but maybe having a Green Job Guarantee whereby people on social welfare could be offered a minimum wage job from the government working as environmental workers doing things like reforesting/rewinding Ireland, installing solar onto roofs & retrofitting buildings, community garden schemes to grow food(fruit&veg) for their village, etc.
Most of the people referred to JobPath
A. Wouldn’t have any of the qualifications to do any of those things.
B. Don’t want to work for minimum wage.
C. If they are qualified electricians/solar installers etc will be outraged at the idea of minimum wage, and rightly so.0 -
I think the tus and ce schemes are a waste of time. A bloke who is a good friend of my dad was telling me the other day he is trying to get his 21 year old son on a ce scheme. The kid has never worked before and is now going to be on the non ending cycle of ce schemes for the rest of his life. This would be my point in the jobpath. People talk about figures and how it shouldnt be run by a private organisation, but how many move from ce or tus into ft employment?
This is nonsense.
Less than 40% of people who finish a CE Scheme go onto the live register after. There is a target of 44% progression set by the DSP for funding to continue for each scheme the following year. Taking into account those who return to DSP payments other than jobseekers, progression rates, in reality, are estimated to be between 32% and 41%.
TUS is less effective, with 70% returning to the live register initially, but this drops to 57.6% after a year. Both schemes are significantly more successful than Jobpath.
Scheme positions rarely turn into paid positions because they tend to be in the voluntary and non-profit sector. But the progression rates to other employment and/or education are indicative that the schemes can give valuable experience to the long-term unemployed.
People cannot stay on TUS or CE Schemes "for the rest of their lives". TUS is a year only and is not renewable (although the DSP can choose to send you again in a few years if you haven't found employment). C.E. is also only a year for the vast majority of applicants. This can be extended up to an additional 2 years if the participant is engaging in further QQI education or training. Your assertion that people stay on CE Schemes for life is completely false.0 -
Just to give a direct comparison that gives CE schemes a success rate of 60% and TUS 30%. Versus JobPath's 5.5%.
Theres no comparison between them in terms of effectiveness of getting people off the dole - CE schemes are literally ten times more successful than JobPath.
(and they're also, by all accounts, much more beneficial for the Jobseeker involved too - they actually get job skills, treated like a human etc.)0 -
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“This can be extended up to an additional 2 years if the participant is engaging in further QQI education or training.”
A man I know had his tus extended by 2 more years by going and doing a first aid course for four 2 hour sessions.0 -
dhaughton99 wrote: »“This can be extended up to an additional 2 years if the participant is engaging in further QQI education or training.”
A man I know had his tus extended by 2 more years by going and doing a first aid course for four 2 hour sessions.
Have never heard of TUS being renewed. That's interesting.
For CE, it is QQI only if aged between 21 and 55, according to the rules of the scheme. However i do know of more than a few cases personally where training has been approved which isn't strictly QQI, so they are certainly a bit more flexible in practice if the Scheme Supervisor can convince them that the training is beneficial. If you are over 55, the training requirement is not strictly compulsory, so it will depend on the DSP to approve on an individual case basis.0 -
Have never heard of TUS being renewed. That's interesting.
For CE, it is QQI only if aged between 21 and 55, according to the rules of the scheme. However i do know of more than a few cases personally where training has been approved which isn't strictly QQI, so they are certainly a bit more flexible in practice if the Scheme Supervisor can convince them that the training is beneficial. If you are over 55, the training requirement is not strictly compulsory, so it will depend on the DSP to approve on an individual case basis.
Sorry I meant CE.0 -
Just to give a direct comparison that gives CE schemes a success rate of 60% and TUS 30%. Versus JobPath's 5.
Are there any stats as to how many people referred to JobPath were moved to a different state benefit? As in people who were on JSA and after contact with JobPath have been moved to something like Disability / Carers etc as in reality they were not available for work while in receipt of JSA?0 -
dhaughton99 wrote: »Sorry I meant CE.
Ok that makes more sense.
Yeah the new rules have been in place for about 2 years now, but they really aren't being enforced yet. It is supposed to a major award on the QQI scale only, but it seems that at the moment, they are willing to accept any training for the extension.
I think at least part of the reason might be that they are struggling to fill spaces in certain areas because of a lack of eligible applicants, so they are more willing to approve an extension if the person is doing any training they deem worthwhile. The max is still 3 years if you are under 62, although it is possible to do up to a max of 6 years in a lifetime.0 -
Are there any stats as to how many people referred to JobPath were moved to a different state benefit? As in people who were on JSA and after contact with JobPath have been moved to something like Disability / Carers etc as in reality they were not available for work while in receipt of JSA?
My experience of dealing with people referred to JobPath is that at least 50% successfully transfer to
Carers Allowance
Disability Allowance
OPFP
WFP
A further 20% find a job themselves within a fortnight of referral or find that their part time hours suddenly increase to full time.0 -
Are there any stats as to how many people referred to JobPath were moved to a different state benefit? As in people who were on JSA and after contact with JobPath have been moved to something like Disability / Carers etc as in reality they were not available for work while in receipt of JSA?splinter65 wrote: »My experience of dealing with people referred to JobPath is that at least 50% successfully transfer to
Carers Allowance
Disability Allowance
OPFP
WFP
A further 20% find a job themselves within a fortnight of referral or find that their part time hours suddenly increase to full time.
20% might find a job within your experience but that anecdotal experience doesn't match the countrywide statistics at all unfortunately. JobPath's overall success rate of placing people in long term employment is only 5.5% across the country, which is pretty abysmal.
Given that I seriously doubt 50% of those referred end up on CA/DA etc either, your anecdotal experience aside. A written question to the minister would establish some concrete figures for that though, if anyone cares enough to get their TD to ask it.0 -
20% might find a job within your experience but that anecdotal experience doesn't match the countrywide statistics at all unfortunately. JobPath's overall success rate of placing people in long term employment is only 5.5% across the country, which is pretty abysmal.
Given that I seriously doubt 50% of those referred end up on CA/DA etc either, your anecdotal experience aside. A written question to the minister would establish some concrete figures for that though, if anyone cares enough to get their TD to ask it.
I’m referred to JobPath. First day there I’m sitting down with my mentor. She asks me what kind of work I’m interested in. I say I’m not available for full time hours because I’m minding my elderly mother during the day/suffering from chronic Crohns and arthritis/parenting my small child alone/minding my children while my partner goes to his minimum wage job.
The mentor refers me back to the SW office and advises me to apply for
Carers
Disability
OPFP
WFP.
I apply for the relevant payment and if I have no other income while my application is being processed then I can get SWA in the interim period from the CWO.
I’m taken off JobPath as I’m not available for work so not eligible. JobPath don’t help you to apply for other payments. That’s not their job. All they do is advise you that you might be entitled to something else, and send you back to the SW office.
The figures show just how many were referred and how many got full time work. A TD looking for JobPath figures wouldn’t be able to find out how many went on to be awarded DA for example, because DA is a whole seperate section to itself.0 -
splinter65 wrote: »I’m referred to JobPath. First day there I’m sitting down with my mentor. She asks me what kind of work I’m interested in. I say I’m not available for full time hours because I’m minding my elderly mother during the day/suffering from chronic Crohns and arthritis/parenting my small child alone/minding my children while my partner goes to his minimum wage job.
The mentor refers me back to the SW office and advises me to apply for
Carers
Disability
OPFP
WFP.
I apply for the relevant payment and if I have no other income while my application is being processed then I can get SWA in the interim period from the CWO.
I’m taken off JobPath as I’m not available for work so not eligible. JobPath don’t help you to apply for other payments. That’s not their job. All they do is advise you that you might be entitled to something else, and send you back to the SW office.
The figures show just how many were referred and how many got full time work. A TD looking for JobPath figures wouldn’t be able to find out how many went on to be awarded DA for example, because DA is a whole seperate section to itself.
Yes, I'm referring to JobPath too - only 5.5% of those referred to it have been successful in finding long term employment, according to the departmental statistics. Which is why I pointed out that your anecdotal estimate of "20% finding jobs within 2 weeks" is way, way off.
A TD would absolutely be able to get figures on how many jobseekers referred to JobPath subsequently transferred over to DA or CA - the department records where claimants transfer to if they transfer to a different payment. And it records which jobseekers are referred to JobPath. So a crosscheck of those claimants leaving JSA to move to DA or CA, referenced against the database of jobseekers referred to JobPath to date, would show the numbers.
But, either way, even based only the currently public data, the numbers of claims approved for DA and CA haven't jumped massively since JobPath was introduced. If 50% of the 250,000 odd people referred to JobPath so far had moved to DA/CA, as you asserted, there would have been a jump of 125k over the baseline in new DA/CA claims in the last three years. An absolutely massive jump.
This just hasn't happened - there were 22,538 Disability Allowance claims registered in 2015, and 23,657 in 2018. A rise of only 1000 over the baseline. Only a minuscule number of people referred to JobPath are actually moving onto DA/CA.0 -
You don’t transfer from JSA to CA or DA or OPFP or WFP.
Your JSA is cancelled and you then make a whole new application to a whole different section of the Department. In a whole different part of the country.
Local SW offices deal with JS.
Longford deals with DA and CA.0 -
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splinter65 wrote: »You don’t transfer from JSA to CA or DA or OPFP or WFP.
Your JSA is cancelled and you then make a whole new application to a whole different section of the Department. In a whole different part of the country.
Local SW offices deal with JS.
Longford deals with DA and CA.
A jobseekers PPS number stays the same. "x was claiming JSA until June 2nd." "x is claiming CA from June 3rd". The data for both is in the departmental system, its not hard to code something that pulls the raw data out from both sources and puts it in an excel spreadsheet for computation of "transfers".
And, to ask again, where have the 50% of those 250,000 people referred to JobPath that you claim have moved to DA/CA gone? Since they're not showing up in the verifiable DA or CA statistics, as I posted.0 -
A jobseekers PPS number stays the same. "x was claiming JSA until June 2nd." "x is claiming CA from June 3rd". The data for both is in the departmental system, its not hard to code something that pulls the raw data out from both sources and puts it in an excel spreadsheet for computation of "transfers".
And, to ask again, where have the 50% of those 250,000 people referred to JobPath that you claim have moved to DA/CA gone? Since they're not showing up in the verifiable DA or CA statistics, as I posted.
Lots of people were/are claiming JSA that didn’t need it and shouldn’t have been getting it. Lots will have applied for DA in particular and then been refused because they just aren’t sufficiently unwell. Lots applied for Carers and didn’t get it for numerous reasons. I have met people who consider asthma a reason why they can’t be considered for full time work.
I’ve met people who bring their elderly parent to collect their pension and then to the supermarket on Thursday who think they should be entitled to Carers Allowance. I mean it’s a nice thing to do but it’s hardly “full time care and attention”.
You are viewing SW in a very black and white way when it’s anything but.
I’m not saying TN has been a huge success either, it’s not. I just no that a lot of people who were on JSA are not now. And the figures do prove that.
Wether they got other payments, found work themselves, or just decided they could manage without the payment, there are a hell of a lot less on JS now then before.0 -
splinter65 wrote: »Lots of people were/are claiming JSA that didn’t need it and shouldn’t have been getting it. Lots will have applied for DA in particular and then been refused because they just aren’t sufficiently unwell. Lots applied for Carers and didn’t get it for numerous reasons. I have met people who consider asthma a reason why they can’t be considered for full time work.
I’ve met people who bring their elderly parent to collect their pension and then to the supermarket on Thursday who think they should be entitled to Carers Allowance. I mean it’s a nice thing to do but it’s hardly “full time care and attention”.
You are viewing SW in a very black and white way when it’s anything but.
I’m not saying TN has been a huge success either, it’s not. I just no that a lot of people who were on JSA are not now. And the figures do prove that.
Wether they got other payments, found work themselves, or just decided they could manage without the payment, there are a hell of a lot less on JS now then before.
Its not a matter of "viewing SW in a very black and white way". Its a matter of looking at the actual verified statistics, instead of relying on anecdotal "gut feeling".
250,000 odd people have been referred to JobPath since 2015. If 50% of them had moved onto CA/DA as you stated, there would have been a massive spike in applications. Not even approvals - just applications. So your, again, anecdotal examples of people who would apply but be refused aren't really relevant.
This spike just didn't happen. DA applications were 22,538 in 2015, and 23,657 in 2018. A jump of only 1000 odd over baseline. Even if all 1000 of these applications came from people referred to JobPath in 2018, which is unlikely, that would still mean about 1.5% of those referred to JobPath (60,000 approx a year) were applying for DA.
That would suggest, at absolute best, about 5% of referrals to JobPath applied to DA/CA etc. Which, combined with their 5.5% job placement success rate, would still give JobPath a failure rate of 90%. At a cost of €170mn+. This in a booming economy where we're approaching full employment!
The program is absolutely horrendous value for taxpayers money. It can't end soon enough.0 -
Its not a matter of "viewing SW in a very black and white way". Its a matter of looking at the actual verified statistics, instead of relying on anecdotal "gut feeling".
250,000 odd people have been referred to JobPath since 2015. If 50% of them had moved onto CA/DA as you stated, there would have been a massive spike in applications. Not even approvals - just applications. So your, again, anecdotal examples of people who would apply but be refused aren't really relevant.
This spike just didn't happen. DA applications were 22,538 in 2015, and 23,657 in 2018. A jump of only 1000 odd over baseline. Even if all 1000 of these applications came from people referred to JobPath in 2018, which is unlikely, that would still mean about 1.5% of those referred to JobPath (60,000 approx a year) were applying for DA.
That would suggest, at absolute best, about 5% of referrals to JobPath applied to DA/CA etc. Which, combined with their 5.5% job placement success rate, would still give JobPath a failure rate of 90%. At a cost of €170mn+. This in a booming economy where we're approaching full employment!
The program is absolutely horrendous value for taxpayers money. It can't end soon enough.
In March 2016 the unemployment rate stood at 8.4%.
This March it was 5.2%.
What became of all those claimants?0 -
splinter65 wrote: »In March 2016 the unemployment rate stood at 8.4%.
This March it was 5.2%.
What became of all those claimants?
They got jobs through means other than JobPath? Or emigrated? Or anything else? Are you trying to imply that JobPath was in anyway responsible for that decline?
Because as of March of this year JobPath's own figures show only 11,334 of the jobseekers referred to them successfully gained long term unemployment. Out of the 206,000 people referred to them at that point in time.
Thats a success rate of 5.5%, or a failure rate of 94.5%, when it comes to them getting their "clients" work. This in a booming economy. Its a horrific success rate. And at a massive cost to the state - the program will hit €200million in costs to the state this year.
I'm not really sure why you find it so hard to believe that JobPath has been an utter failure - the figures don't lie. Its a complete waste of taxpayer's money.0 -
They got jobs through means other than JobPath? Or emigrated? Or anything else? Are you trying to imply that JobPath was in anyway responsible for that decline?
Because as of March of this year JobPath's own figures show only 11,334 of the jobseekers referred to them successfully gained long term unemployment. Out of the 206,000 people referred to them at that point in time.
Thats a success rate of 5.5%, or a failure rate of 94.5%, when it comes to them getting their "clients" work. This in a booming economy. Its a horrific success rate. And at a massive cost to the state - the program will hit €200million in costs to the state this year.
I'm not really sure why you find it so hard to believe that JobPath has been an utter failure - the figures don't lie. Its a complete waste of taxpayer's money.
This really sums up Jobpath well.
It's not that the idea behind it was so terrible, it's more that the execution of that idea has been so flawed. Many of the personal advisors lack recruitment experience or qualifications. They seem to be ill equipped to deal with the individual needs of each "customer". Even advice given on CV's can be extremely dubious. I spent over a decade in recruitment, and saw several CV's that were prepared with assistance from personal advisors at Turas Nua, and they were all among the worst i have ever seen from applicants.
At the end of the day, even if these flaws didn't exist, it would still all come down to results. And neither Jobpath provider has delivered results that can justify continuing this scheme in its present form. The success rate is pathetic, and given that a certain proportion of these "successes" would likely have found work on their own regardless, the real success rate is probably even lower still.
The argument that Jobpath helps put claimants on the correct payment is spurious. This was not the purpose and does not justify its continued existence. If this indeed is as big an issue as some assert, there are ways that this can be corrected by the DSP/Intreo without the need for any Jobpath intervention. Additionally, moving jobseekers claimants to different payments like DA or CA doesn't result in a cost saving that can possibly justify the expense of the Jobpath scheme.
There may be aspects of Jobpath which were to the benefit of unskilled, inexperienced or uneducated claimants, but there is little evidence that this actually assisted them in finding long-term work. Rather than forcing people to apply for job after job just for the sake of doing so, in the hope that by some miracle some employer will hire them, the reason why they have been unsuccessful needs to be identified. If it is a lack of education or training, they need to be diverted in that direction. If it is a lack of any work experience, something like TUS or CE may be appropriate, or even a revised version of Jobbridge. Some cases may be even more complex. Jobpath lacked the flexibility to consider what was in the best interests of helping each claimant find sustainable long-term employment. It was too focused on chasing one goal for profit, and the evidence proves that this approach has been an colossal failure.0 -
I thought Turas Nua/Jobpath were being shut down? I've been summoned to a meeting with them next week.0
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El_Bee wrote:I thought Turas Nua/Jobpath were being shut down? I've been summoned to a meeting with them next week.
It ll be a long time before that occurs.
Create a new email address, only use this address during your job path experience, under no circumstances give them other addresses.
Obtain another sim card, only use this sim card for all job path correspondences, under no circumstances give them your private number
Delete/destroy both email address and sim card upon completion of program.
Consider recording the audio of all job path interactions
Best of luck0 -
Wanderer78 wrote: »It ll be a long time before that occurs.
Create a new email address, only use this address during your job path experience, under no circumstances give them other addresses.
Obtain another sim card, only use this sim card for all job path correspondences, under no circumstances give them your private number
Delete/destroy both email address and sim card upon completion of program.
Consider recording the audio of all job path interactions
Best of luck
Unfortunately this is my second time with them, I was put on to them between my first and second year in college, then taken off when I went back, and now that I've finished my exams I appear to be reactivated, but I foolishly gave them both my number and email when I first registered. I thought though that the government voted to end the program.0 -
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El_Bee wrote:Unfortunately this is my second time with them, I was put on to them between my first and second year in college, then taken off when I went back, and now that I've finished my exams I appear to be reactivated, but I foolishly gave them both my number and email when I first registered. I thought though that the government voted to end the program.
That's unfortunate, i think I'd create a new email anyway, tell them your old address has been deleted, and block all emails from them into your current active address. You could do something similar with the number.
Ah shur I'd say we ll be waiting for this one to be wound down, wouldn't surprise me if it never is, 'democracy' works in mysterious ways, and sometimes it just doesn't0
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