Leaf e+ 62kWh

KCross

Mike9832 wrote: »

Pity no efficiency improvements on the Leaf62 at motorway speeds

It still can't do Cork - Dublin without a charge @ 120, even Limerick - Dublin @ 120 will be pretty low battery

Kona has no problem with either journey @ 120

Why do you think L62 wont do Cork-Dublin(250km) on one charge @ 120km/h?

What are your figures for L62 and Kona that brought you to that conclusion?

Idbatterim

can or do they they use the heat produced by the battery to heat the cabin when required?

Zenith74

Old diesel wrote: »

The L62 will STILL have usage limitations as it looks built around an expected mileage usage pattern
Headscratcher really.

Is it really that head-scratching though? They looked at the average mileage pattern and built a car to suit that within the other constraints they faced (cost, complexity, time to market etc.).

It would have been great if it came with CCS and was closer in efficiency to the Ioniq, but other than that this is a great introduction BEV for the vast majority of people (who can afford it). Yes there are people that wake up in the morning and decide to take off on 800km drives, but they are an incredibly tiny minority and what is required right now is solving for the majority.

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

Why do you think L62 wont do Cork-Dublin(250km) on one charge @ 120km/h?

What are your figures for L62 and Kona that brought you to that conclusion?

If we assume 20kWh/100km at real world efficiency on the motorway at 120km/h GPS speed (which is what I have seen in my leaf and in testing the L40).


Let's assume 56kWh available, and the user isn't going to go below 5% indicated. So that's 56*.95 or 53.2kWh available for the user.
Dividing that into 20kWh/100km gives 266km of real world motorway range at 120 GPS from 100% SOC to 5% SOC.



So now you get to cork and fast charge on the chademo to 80%. You take on approx 70 percentage points of battery to get back to 80%. That's going to leave you with 53.2*0.8 or 42.56kWh available. This means you will only have a real world range of ~200km back down to 5% again, so you will need to charge again to get back to Dublin.

And all those figures exclude heating costs.

So that's Dublin to Cork and back again, with 2 charges needed. Not really much progress from what's out there now. Kona could get to Cork without charging, and charge once on the way back.

Soarer

But when you get off the motorway and do your normal daily driving, you'll have to charge half as often as the Ioniq.

ELM327

Soarer wrote: »

But when you get off the motorway and do your normal daily driving, you'll have to charge half as often as the Ioniq.

The thread is about the leaf 60, no one mentioned Ioniq??

Soarer

ELM327 wrote: »

The thread is about the leaf 60, no one mentioned Ioniq??

Your post definitely mentioned the L62 and the Ioniq having to charge twice on a return trip to Cork. The Kona wasn't mentioned.

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

If we assume 20kWh/100km at real world efficiency on the motorway at 120km/h GPS speed (which is what I have seen in my leaf and in testing the L40).


Let's assume 56kWh available, and the user isn't going to go below 5% indicated. So that's 56*.95 or 53.2kWh available for the user.
Dividing that into 20kWh/100km gives 266km of real world motorway range at 120 GPS from 100% SOC to 5% SOC.



So now you get to cork and fast charge on the chademo to 80%. You take on approx 70 percentage points of battery to get back to 80%. That's going to leave you with 53.2*0.8 or 42.56kWh available. This means you will only have a real world range of ~200km back down to 5% again, so you will need to charge again to get back to Dublin.

And all those figures exclude heating costs.

So that's Dublin to Cork and back again, with 2 charges needed. Not really much progress from what's out there now. Kona could get to Cork without charging, and charge once on the way back.

The L24 has <2kWh hidden. The L40 has ~3.5kWh hidden. I'd say the L62 will be more like 58kWh usable rather than 56kWh but we are both guessing there.... 6kWh hidden seems like an awful lot of buffer to me (Ref: 64kWh Kona is reported to be 67kWh total)

In any case, the example you gave shows it making it to Cork without stopping, which was the question I asked, so you seem to disagree with thierry and yourself in that case?!

The return leg on the same day is a different question.

Old diesel

Zenith74 wrote: »

Is it really that head-scratching though? They looked at the average mileage pattern and built a car to suit that within the other constraints they faced (cost, complexity, time to market etc.).

It would have been great if it came with CCS and was closer in efficiency to the Ioniq, but other than that this is a great introduction BEV for the vast majority of people (who can afford it). Yes there are people that wake up in the morning and decide to take off on 800km drives, but they are an incredibly tiny minority and what is required right now is solving for the majority.

The Nissan philosophy of designing an EV around how Nissan think it will be used is poor imo.

They were taking the urine at 40 kwh not having active battery cooling.

To still not have active battery cooling at 62 kwh is just an unbelievable level of stupidity.

What actually annoys me isn't so much the charge throttling of rapidgate although 22 kw charging speed on a 62 kwh will be a 2.5 hour nightmare in itself.

But the prospect of a 56 degrees battery temperature reduced power mode like the current L40*. A nasty horrible feature imo.

I've not experienced it myself but reports from those who have - concern me greatly.

*on the old L40 BMS software - I don't know how the new L40 software as per Electric Swede and Bjorns test last week behaves at 56 degrees. Time will tell on that one

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

The L24 has <2kWh hidden. The L40 has ~3.5kWh hidden. I'd say the L62 will be more like 58kWh usable rather than 56kWh but we are both guessing there.... 6kWh hidden seems like an awful lot of buffer to me.

In any case, the example you gave shows it making it to Cork without stopping, which was the question I asked, so you seem to disagree with thierry and yourself in that case?!

The return leg on the same day is a different question.

I accepted Thierry's figures without questioning them. When you work it out as I did above it's clear it can get to cork (just about) without charging.
So yes, I am disagreeing with both Thierry and my earlier posts as it can make it to cork from Dublin without stopping (but you'd want to have destination charging at the other end to be safe!)

Soarer wrote: »

Your post definitely mentioned the L62 and the Ioniq having to charge twice on a return trip to Cork. The Kona wasn't mentioned.

Yes I ninja edited (within 30s of posting) and removed the Ioniq as the L60 competition is the Kona and ENiro not the shorter range Ioniq.

Soarer

ELM327 wrote: »

The thread is about the leaf 60, no one mentioned Ioniq??

So you did mention the Ioniq, and then made me out to look like a langer.

Well played.

Gile_na_gile

The press release states that "only 5,000 units will be produced for Europe", which means that here in Ireland few of us will get a look at it. Also the other 3.ZERO is a refresh of the 2018, albeit with new battery tech and probably some TLC with regard to rapidgate issues.

The 62kWH version will be limited so that they can test the market before upping production, so perhaps we will not see them until 2020 unless we get priority due to they being made nearby in the UK. Perhaps if initial sales and experiences are good, they will up production in September. That said, dealers expected them around July.

Another question is that of the price hike between the two L40s, v2 and v3. I guess one pays the diff for the extra torque and larger screen, but that doesn't seem such good value without a larger battery to supply the torque.

ELM327

Soarer wrote: »

So you did mention the Ioniq, and then made me out to look like a langer.

Well played.

Making you out to be a langer would have been to deny posting it at all.
Now you look like a super efficient posting machine as you read my post and replied within 30 seconds (the time it took for me to reread and edit out Ioniq for Kona).




In fairness I only said anything because you are one of the first to shout whenever anyone discusses the Ioniq in the leaf40 thread.

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

I accepted Thierry's figures without questioning them. When you work it out as I did above it's clear it can get to cork (just about) without charging.
So yes, I am disagreeing with both Thierry and my earlier posts as it can make it to cork from Dublin without stopping (but you'd want to have destination charging at the other end to be safe!)

You accepted thierry's figures as true! :eek: :D

It should arrive to Cork with 10%+ to spare based on 20kWh/100km and 58kWh usable.... remains to be seen if it will get that efficiency rate though.

Did you do 120km/h in the L40 and get a solid 20kWh/100km?

How about you @samih.... what do you get in the L40 @120km/h?

Soarer

ELM327 wrote: »

Making you out to be a langer would have been to deny posting it at all.

Which you did.

ELM327 wrote: »

Now you look like a super efficient posting machine as you read my post and replied within 30 seconds (the time it took for me to reread and edit out Ioniq for Kona).

You edited more than that.

ELM327 wrote: »

In fairness I only said anything because you are one of the first to shout whenever anyone discusses the Ioniq in the leaf40 thread.

And rightly so.

Every bloody Leaf thread gets swarmed with Ioniq comparisons, and you did the same here until you changed it.

For some reason Cindi Lauper is coming to mind.

ELM327

I give up. Clearly you're right here, no point saying any more, don't need to derail this thread too.

Anyway getting back to L62/L60, does anyone have any confirmation regarding the earlier LG Chem / AESC discussion? It would be strange to get LG Chem cells in a different size to Kona, E Niro etc.

samih

KCross wrote: »

You accepted thierry's figures as true! :eek: :D

It should arrive to Cork with 10%+ to spare based on 20kWh/100km and 58kWh usable.... remains to be seen if it will get that efficiency rate though.

Did you do 120km/h in the L40 and get a solid 20kWh/100km?

How about you @samih.... what do you get in the L40 @120km/h?

I seem to be able to do about 150 km at real 120 km/h at 10 degrees with heating at auto/19 degrees on our L40. The last time I did it the car reported approx 19 kWh/100 km but I'm not sure if that includes the heater usage.

I'll go for a spin some night over the next week as as I have free time in my hands from tomorrow. I'll check the reserve too on the same trip if possible.

Shefwedfan

samih wrote: »

I seem to be able to do about 150 km at real 120 km/h at 10 degrees with heating at auto/19 degrees on our L40. The last time I did it the car reported approx 19 kWh/100 km but I'm not sure if that includes the heater usage.

I'll go for a spin some night over the next week as as I have free time in my hands from tomorrow. I'll check the reserve too on the same trip if possible.

Based onthat then 232km at motorway speed.

Old diesel

samih wrote: »

I seem to be able to do about 150 km at real 120 km/h at 10 degrees with heating at auto/19 degrees on our L40. The last time I did it the car reported approx 19 kWh/100 km but I'm not sure if that includes the heater usage.

I'll go for a spin some night over the next week as as I have free time in my hands from tomorrow. I'll check the reserve too on the same trip if possible.

Based on 37 kwh usable that 19 kwh per 100 km would imply a 100 percent to zero range of 120 miles.

I know it's not doing 120 miles at that 70 mph though - your real range is 93 miles

samih

If it's dry and not too windy on Friday night I'm planning to do Leixlip-M6/R420, Moyally, Co. Offaly-Leixlip which is 168 km + about 10 km total to/from the house to M4 slip road. To calm my nerves I'll do it at indicated 120 km/h which should be about 114 GPS speed (which I'll also check). If I think I won't make it I'll stop at Applegreen eastbound M4 near Johnstown for a charge after 144 kilometers on the way back.

Old diesel

samih wrote: »

If it's dry and not too windy on Friday night I'm planning to do Leixlip-M6/R420, Moyally, Co. Offaly-Leixlip which is 168 km + about 10 km total to/from the house to M4 slip road. To calm my nerves I'll do it at indicated 120 km/h which should be about 114 GPS speed (which I'll also check). If I think I won't make it I'll stop at Applegreen eastbound M4 near Johnstown for a charge after 144 kilometers on the way back.

Best of luck.

Will be interesting to see your outcome

KCross

samih wrote: »

If it's dry and not too windy on Friday night I'm planning to do Leixlip-M6/R420, Moyally, Co. Offaly-Leixlip which is 168 km + about 10 km total to/from the house to M4 slip road. To calm my nerves I'll do it at indicated 120 km/h which should be about 114 GPS speed (which I'll also check). If I think I won't make it I'll stop at Applegreen eastbound M4 near Johnstown for a charge after 144 kilometers on the way back.

You dont happen to have LeafSpy, do you?

Reading the SoC off the dash can be misleading as its not linear and can skew the results if you try to extrapolate. I'm also generally skeptical of the kWh/100km readout on the dash as its hard to know if it includes regen or not (Bjorn complained about that on his press car) and as you said yourself if it includes heating or not.

If you had LeafSpy and did a simple ~50km run at 120km/h and then turned around and came back and took the before/after kWh figures from LeafSpy you'd know exactly what the kWh/100km figure is. That would be the ideal. It would also mean no need for charging as you are only doing 100km.


If you dont have LeafSpy then take as many stats as you can... time at charger, readout from charger, readout from dash.

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

You dont happen to have LeafSpy, do you?

Reading the SoC off the dash can be misleading as its not linear and can skew the results if you try to extrapolate. I'm also generally skeptical of the kWh/100km readout on the dash as its hard to know if it includes regen or not (Bjorn complained about that on his press car) and as you said yourself if it includes heating or not.

If you had LeafSpy and did a simple ~50km run at 120km/h and then turned around and came back and took the before/after kWh figures from LeafSpy you'd know exactly what the kWh/100km figure is. That would be the ideal. It would also mean no need for charging as you are only doing 100km.


If you dont have LeafSpy then take as many stats as you can... time at charger, readout from charger, readout from dash.

It doesn't include regen and (from memory) doesn't include heating use either.


Word of warning though, the leafspy SOC is not the available SOC, it is the SOC including the low end buffer meaning the car will run out at approx 5% on leafspy. Don't rely on it for range but it's good to get accurate info.

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

It doesn't include regen and (from memory) doesn't include heating use either.

Exactly, so its not that accurate to calculate range, which is another bad design!

ELM327 wrote: »

Word of warning though, the leafspy SOC is not the available SOC, it is the SOC including the low end buffer meaning the car will run out at approx 5% on leafspy. Don't rely on it for range but it's good to get accurate info.

Indeed, the low end buffer, where turtle kicks in, is 0.4kWh in the L24 so its a good bit less than 5%. I'd imagine turtle kicks in around the same level on the L40.

So thats why I was suggesting to samih to just do a shorter run. If he just did 50km and came back it would remove changes in elevation affecting the figures and it would remove the software calculated values on the dash which are not the best.

Just 50km each way and get the before and after from LeafSpy and then you know exactly what its using per 100km.

samih

Have leafspy and am not afraid using it. The car apparently reserves about 0.5 or 1.0 kWh at the bottom of the battery but before that there seem to be a sizable buffer between when the car reports 0 and the actual zero but at the same time the GOM reading appears to show the range including this "reserve".

As I have never actually ventured in this region I'm planning to do that too on the day to amuse myself. I want to do at least 150 km as I want to get down to very low battery range during this run. Has to be done near a charger so I don't actually get stranded when the turtle kicks in, although I do have Nissan roadside assistance number on the speed dial. There is a handy stretch of straight road near home where I can do repeated runs of 1km near an Irish rail charger.

Mike9832

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Based onthat then 232km at motorway speed.

Won't do do Cork - Dublin without a charge then @ 120

Figures i am basing this on is ( seen guys quote them here )

Leaf40 150km @ 120
Ioniq 170km @ 120
Kona 300km @ 120

Leaf62 has 55% more range than Leaf40 so 230-240km @ 120 seems right

Cork - Dublin is 260km

KCross

samih wrote: »

Have leafspy and am not afraid using it. The car apparently reserves about 0.5 or 1.0 kWh at the bottom of the battery but before that there seem to be a sizable buffer between when the car reports 0 and the actual zero but at the same time the GOM reading appears to show the range including this "reserve".

As I have never actually ventured in this region I'm planning to do that too on the day to amuse myself. I want to do at least 150 km as I want to get down to very low battery range during this run. Has to be done near a charger so I don't actually get stranded when the turtle kicks in, although I do have Nissan roadside assistance number on the speed dial. There is a handy stretch of straight road near home where I can do repeated runs of 1km near an Irish rail charger.

Can you take a few LeafSpy screenshots along the way showing the remaining kWh and what distance you've covered at that point.

Is there much altitude change on the route you are taking?

Shefwedfan

Mike9832 wrote: »

Won't do do Cork - Dublin without a charge then @ 120

Figures i am basing this on is ( seen guys quote them here )

Leaf40 150km @ 120
Ioniq 170km @ 120
Kona 300km @ 120

Leaf62 has 55% more range than Leaf40 so 230-240km @ 120 seems right

Cork - Dublin is 260km

At the moment it will because a huge chuck is 60kmph :P

icom

Official Release video from Nissan:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlJX09m35s8
in Japanese, but updated specs pop up in English

A look inside the new Leaf e+ showing a range of 283 miles (455km) on the GOM at 97% charge :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egFJGSY1oq4

Video: Nissan LEAF e+ 62kWh Battery Production:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OadL4m-ecGo

KCross

icom wrote: »

Video: Nissan LEAF e plus 62kWh Battery Production:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OadL4m-ecGo

Thats the existing Nissan AESC plant which definitely makes L40 batteries.

There wasnt anything in the video to prove that it is also used for the L62 but its possible.