Leaf e+ 62kWh

KCross · 09-01-2019 1:23pm

slave1 wrote: »

Another EV option, can only be a good thing, hard crowd

Indeed. The usual suspects are already writing the car off before its even been test driven or the fine detail of the cooling known. :rolleyes:

Mike9832 wrote: »

... 22kW on board charger makes up for that though, we have plenty of them around the country

I doubt 22kW on board charger will be standard(or even offered in this country).... did they say it was to be standard?

Mike9832 wrote: »

No CCS is disappointing...

Nissan are moving forward with their V2G tech (which CCS doesnt yet support in the wild whereas CHAdeMO does) and are unlikely to walk away from CHAdeMo for quite some time.

What they do need to do though is pump some money into the network and not leave it to private operators to fill the void. They probably wont though.

Having said that having ~60kWh available isnt going to require too many rapid charges so it becomes less of an issue.

cros13 · 09-01-2019 1:24pm

Soarer wrote: »

If you're crossing Europe, why would the max be 43kW.

Transport Evolved said you should average 70kW across the charging range. Where are they talking about that gives you those speeds?

100kW+ CCS is / is about to be widely available across the major european routes.
Chademo along the same routes is mostly 50kW.

ELM327 · 09-01-2019 1:25pm

Soarer wrote: »

If you're crossing Europe, why would the max be 43kW.

Transport Evolved said you should average 70kW across the charging range. Where are they talking about that gives you those speeds?

Because there are less than 1% of chademo stations in the wild that are greater than 50kW. The max of Chademo 1 is 62.5kW which required 500v.

cros13 · 09-01-2019 1:28pm

KCross wrote: »

I doubt 22kW on board charger will be standard(or even offered in this country).... did they say it was to be standard?

My info is that 11kW will be standard in most european markets with a 22kW option.

Shefwedfan · 09-01-2019 1:33pm

DrPhilG wrote: »

*cough

I didn't want to count in PHEV's

* hehehehe

Mickeroo · 09-01-2019 1:34pm

What would you guys expect these to be selling for when they are available?

KCross · 09-01-2019 1:34pm

cros13 wrote: »

My info is that 11kW will be standard in most european markets with a 22kW option.

11kW standard would be good.
Presumably they have engineered it like the i3 where they use two of the rectifiers to give 7kW when on single phase?

ELM327 · 09-01-2019 1:35pm

cros13 wrote: »

My info is that 11kW will be standard in most european markets with a 22kW option.

But again that brings the question if it's 11kW standard (16a 3 phase) can it accept 32a single phase or will it be limited to 3.7kW/16a on single phase too.

Not many places here have 11kW 3 phase, much more common in Germany.

KCross · 09-01-2019 1:36pm

Mickeroo wrote: »

What would you guys expect these to be selling for when they are available?

Educated guess.... €5k more than the L40.
All depends on how VW price their Neo and how the specs compare etc. It wont be cheap anyway thats for sure!

Soarer · 09-01-2019 1:48pm

So new L62 or secondhand Model S?!

Soarer · 09-01-2019 1:51pm

cros13 wrote: »

100kW+ CCS is / is about to be widely available across the major european routes.
Chademo along the same routes is mostly 50kW.

ELM327 wrote: »

Because there are less than 1% of chademo stations in the wild that are greater than 50kW. The max of Chademo 1 is 62.5kW which required 500v.

So how/why are they speccing it for 100kW and saying you'll average 70kW?

cros13 · 09-01-2019 2:00pm

Soarer wrote: »

So how/why are they speccing it for 100kW and saying you'll average 70kW?

100kW is the nameplate and 70kW as the sustained has been repeatedly mentioned including in the official press release.

Thanks to the available new 70 kW (100 kW peak) Quick Charging system, the 2019 Nissan LEAF e+ can charge more efficiently than ever.*3 Based on early testing, Nissan LEAF e+ owners can expect similar charging times when hooked up to a 100 kW charger as current LEAF owners do with a 50 kW charger, despite a 55 percent larger battery storage capacity.

Soarer · 09-01-2019 2:03pm

cros13 wrote: »

100kW is the nameplate and 70kW as the sustained has been repeatedly mentioned including in the official press release.

But even 70kW sustained is overkill if the majority of charger are only capable of 50kW.

Unless they're planning on a range of Nissan branded Chademo -> CCS adaptors?

KCross · 09-01-2019 3:04pm

https://europe.nissannews.com/en-GB/releases/release-90b1ce83155c6b12ec5c018c9a0239df-nissan-announces-leaf-3zero-and-leaf-3zero-e-limited-edition-with-higher-output-and-longer-range-2#

Order now for delivery in May. Not sure if Nissan Ireland have been told that or not!

Price guideline is:

The LEAF 3.ZERO price starts at 39.900€, while the LEAF 3.ZERO e+ Limited Edition will be available for sale from 45.500€

The limited edition will be close enough to the SVE top spec model so I'd say we will be looking at similar pricing to the Kona for an L62 SVE.... (€45k-€10k Grant+€IrishVat+€PaddyGouging)

ELM327 · 09-01-2019 3:07pm

Soarer wrote: »

So how/why are they speccing it for 100kW and saying you'll average 70kW?

They are saying you'll average 70kW when connected to a 100kW charger.
Which of course, they never will be!

Shefwedfan · 09-01-2019 3:17pm

KCross wrote: »

https://europe.nissannews.com/en-GB/releases/release-90b1ce83155c6b12ec5c018c9a0239df-nissan-announces-leaf-3zero-and-leaf-3zero-e-limited-edition-with-higher-output-and-longer-range-2#

Order now for delivery in May. Not sure if Nissan Ireland have been told that or not!

Price guideline is:
The LEAF 3.ZERO price starts at 39.900€, while the LEAF 3.ZERO e+ Limited Edition will be available for sale from 45.500€
The limited edition will be close enough to the SVE top spec model so I'd say we will be looking at similar pricing to the Kona for an L62 SVE.... (€45k-€10k Grant+€IrishVat+€PaddyGouging)

Do we take 10k off those prices so 29k and 35k? or am I been too optimistic.

unkel · 09-01-2019 3:32pm

L40 starts at about 29k. Surely either the L60 will be the same, but then the L40 (provided it is continued) will have to drop to the early-mid 20s. Or it will be more than 29k

I'd be fairly sick if I'd just picked up a L40 for 30 grand and I could pick up a L60 (presumably with no fast charging issues) this time next year for the same money

KCross · 09-01-2019 3:33pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Do we take 10k off those prices so 29k and 35k? or am I been too optimistic.

Yes, but the €29k is for the 3.Zero L40.
The €35k is for the 3.Zero L62.

And as I said, add on the extra for Irish VAT and the inevitable Paddy price hike due to our low volume.

KCross · 09-01-2019 3:35pm

unkel wrote: »

L40 starts at about 29k. Surely either the L60 will be the same, but then the L40 (provided it is continued) will have to drop to the early-mid 20s. Or it will be more than 29k

I'd be fairly sick if I'd just picked up a L40 for 30 grand and I could pick up a L60 (presumably with no fast charging issues) this time next year for the same money

Nissan are showing a €5600 price difference between an L40 and an L62 so I dont think what you have writen will come to pass based on Nissan's official press release.

Soarer · 09-01-2019 3:37pm

Hopefully it'll be somewhere in the middle.

The L40 drops a bit, and the L62 comes in a bit more than the current L40 price.

Ryath · 09-01-2019 3:40pm

The LEAF 3.ZERO is still the 40kwh battery just with the updated 8" Screen.

The LEAF 3.ZERO e+ Limited Edition is the one with the 62kwh battery and 214bhp. If it's close to the €35k mark on the road and they still offer 3.9% PCP I could be tempted. I'm pretty much set on waiting for the VW id Neo now though. I wonder have they upgraded the suspension/ steering at all in the Plus model. The 40kwh was pretty poor to drive in comparison to the e-golf the poor driving position doesn't help though.

KCross · 09-01-2019 3:42pm

Soarer wrote: »

Hopefully it'll be somewhere in the middle.

The L40 drops a bit, and the L62 comes in a bit more than the current L40 price.

Wishful thinking. From their press release they are setting the 3.Zero price of an L40 to pretty much the same price as a 2.Zero was last year.... iirc it was €30k on launch last year.... the 3.Zero is the same price in L40 configuration so no price change.

It seems to me that the L40 pricing will stay the same with a ~€5k+ premium for the L62.

Mike9832 · 09-01-2019 3:43pm

cros13 wrote: »

Definitely LG Chem, Which means potential supply issues.

Been widely reported its AESC cells by new owner Envision

They have improved density by 25%

Nissan on selling agreed to keep 20% of the company

CEO talked of Envision talked about improvements and €50/kWh by 2025 recently

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/12/07/envision-energy-says-ev-battery-cell-costs-will-fall-below-50-kwh-by-2025/

Read LG had no batteries for them till 2020/21

Is it definitely LG cells?

KCross · 09-01-2019 3:54pm

KCross wrote: »

Yes, but the €29k is for the 3.Zero L40.
The €35k is for the 3.Zero L62.

And as I said, add on the extra for Irish VAT and the inevitable Paddy price hike due to our low volume.

As an added data point the UK price after grant for the 3.Zero is £31,095 for 40kWh and £36,795 for 62kWh.

The L62 is definitely going to be Kona price territory.

Clearly Hyundai, Kia and now Nissan are not concerned about a Neo coming out in 12 months time for significantly less money.

Old diesel · 09-01-2019 4:07pm

My understanding is that the battery is STILL passively cooled.

Nissan USA have confirmed this on Twitter when someone asked - and a UK blogger told me on Twitter that he phoned Nissan and got the same.

The UK blogger was told by Nissan that UK Leafs only do 35 miles a day on average.

Which is a stupid line of thought from Nissan.

Old diesel · 09-01-2019 4:14pm

cros13 wrote: »

CCS was tested on the L40/L62 during development. So disappointing that it's stuck on CHadeMo.

So to summarize the differences between the Leafs:

|L24mk2|L30|L40|L62
Pack capacity|24kWh|30kWh|40kWh|62kWh
Cell Supplier|AESC|AESC|AESC|LG Chem
Motor power|80kW|80kW|110kW|160kW
Motor torque|254Nm|254Nm|320Nm|340Nm
Top Spec Weight|1549kg|1570kg|1520kg|1680kg
0-100 time|10.5 sec|10.5 sec|7.9 sec|6.4 sec
Speed Limiter|160km/h|160km/h|160km/h|180km/h
EPA Range|135km|172km|243km|364km
Peak DC Charging|50kW|50kW|50kW|100kW
Sustained DC charging|43kW|43kW|43kW|70kW
AC Charging|3.3/6.6kW|3.3/6.6kW|6.6kW|11/22kW

On 50kW rapids with the C-rate these cells will be seeing rapidgate is a non-issue. Still would have liked to see liquid-cooling for pack longevity...

Do you mean that the 62 might actually have a reduced heat gain during charging then the 40????

Gile_na_gile · 09-01-2019 4:18pm

While heating might still be an issue, the effective range on our little island means this will not be a significant issue for us. Can do most if not all journeys on a single charge, and then charge at destination for touring/work or the return trip. This is the car I need, really, but I would not be able to jump (~5k EUR over a new L40) that far from a 2005 ICE! The new L40 I have bought will do me for a few years and then upgrade to a longer range car like this when they are already on the SH market.
I hope they retain the general shape of the Leaf rather than morph into the 'crossover' and SUV markets. We need hatches, estates, and saloons that will accomodate 3 kids and shopping on an average salary, as in owned rather than leased.

KCross · 09-01-2019 4:21pm

Old diesel wrote: »

Do you mean that the 62 might actually have a reduced heat gain during charging then the 40????

In theory yes, but we really need to see a real test.

The C-rate is pegged to the capacity of the battery.

50kW into a 40kWh battery is in theory going to produce more heat than 50kW into a 62kWh battery as the 62kWh has 288 cells vs 192 in the L40 so each cell will be under less stress in a L62 so less heat... but you then have to balance that with the fact its packed tighter... hence the need for a real world test.

ELM327 · 09-01-2019 4:27pm

KCross wrote: »

In theory yes, but we really need to see a real test.

The C-rate is pegged to the capacity of the battery.

50kW into a 40kWh battery is in theory going to produce more heat than 50kW into a 62kWh battery as the 62kWh has 288 cells vs 192 in the L40 so each cell will be under less stress in a L62 so less heat... but you then have to balance that with the fact its packed tighter... hence the need for a real world test.

+1
And the internal resistance will be higher in the 62kWh (same as the 40 compared to 24/30 had higher resistance) which also produces more heat.

This is why liquid cooling is needed on larger batteries. Internal resistance usually increases and therefore better cooling is needed. As a layman that has no practical electrical experience but is a nerd for stats that is my understanding! I do stand to be corrected.

Old diesel · 09-01-2019 5:12pm

Just seen a Nissan press release

Some take away points

1) examples of how car might be used.

Nissan say an ePlus owner could use the car for a full weeks commute on one charge. I would take the view that's based on their historical user mileage data per day.

They also suggest the car could be used by an owner for weekend trips and suggest 500 kms as an example. That's 312 miles. So what that implies to me is that they forsee you doing a 1 rapid trip.

2) disclaimers.

They give spiel about how you can charge to 80 percent as quick as current Leaf (based on 70 kw charging. However there is a disclaimer in small print that charging speed may vary according to battery temperature.

My conclusions from press release......

The L62 will STILL have usage limitations as it looks built around an expected mileage usage pattern and the disclaimer implies rapidgate scenarios are still in play.

Headscratcher really.

I suspect that there are Japanese cultural issues at play here as I'm looking at Nissans thinking here and the first thing I come up with as regards anything similar to Nissans battery cooling woes is Mazda and diesel engines.

The common dominator between Nissan battery cooling and Mazda reliability on post 2002 diesels is an apparent inability to realise they got it wrong and to get in outside expertise.

In Mazdas case they should have been looking to outsource diesel engines.

With Nissan Renault expertise should have been got in given that Renault have used active battery cooling from day 1.

An issue with Japanese engineers seeing getting outside help as a failure.

That issue seemed at play with Honda in their F1 engines in 2015 to 2018 too.

Leaf e+ 62kWh

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