Ireland vs Argentina 10/11/18 - This time it's not personal [1830, RTE2 & C4]

Granny15

boredatwork82 wrote: »

The Irish lineout has been very hit and miss over the last few years. I remember reading an article about how the Irish lineout was the worst in the six Nations for awhile, but I they got it sorted.

I am not sure it is down to just Rory Best, but a combination of factors including a lack of movement and pace.
It is also important to remember that Rory Best is 36. At some point age will start catching up with him. But if are lineout is as bad as it was today we will get our holes opened on Saturday.

Regarding Larmour, if Kearney is not fit I assume he will start. Joe tends not to make mad radical changes. I think some people on forums like this don't realise the amount of specific details all the positions go into and their roles in the system in Joe's Ireland. I would highly doubt Addison has enough time in the system to be learning two roles to satisfy Joe that he can play there. He is our 5th choice centre. But Larmour is not taking his opportunities. Granted the Irish back play is horrendous and doesn't give him the same space and chances he gets in Leinster, but I would expect him to do better. He is beginning to look like a player who is class against poor/mediocre opposition, but the step up to top tier teams and he is nullified. I hope I am wrong.

Maybe Joe's system doesn't suit a naturally talented back like Larmour, ala Simon Zebo.

Here’s hoping Kearney stays on in a coaching capacity when he retires. We’ll need to pass on that nous to the next generation of FBs including Larmour

Quint2010

In a way I'm glad we didn't play that well yesterday. It'll make us more focused I believe for next week. We need to meet ge up several years.

Granny15

Former Former wrote: »

The system seems to suit Kearney, Stockdale and Earls fine, Bowe and Trimble before them and in reality it suited Zebo too, Joe just preferred better players.

If Larmour can't fit in, then he's either not ready or not good enough. His problem last night was that he couldn't cope with high balls and the Argies targetted him because of it. That's nothing to do with the system.

My take is that he is trying to sprint to get to kicked balls rather than reading the out half and judging where they will kick. It’s a skill that comes with reading body language and the lineup of the centers then it’s all about covering the ground to get to where the ball is kicked without it touching the ground. Having extra bulk gives the catcher confidence that he won’t get upended in traffic also where I think Rob has an advantage over Jordan who is slight in traffic and gets pushed around.

sydthebeat

Quint2010 wrote: »

We need to meet ge up several years.

Best typo ever

Granny15

bilston wrote: »

Best will come under pressure, but some of the lineout losses clearly has nothing to do with his throwing, the MOTM (who was excellent the second half) was responsible for one and arguably two (maybe joint responsibility with Henderson for one close to the Argentina line).

I think we looked a lot more accurate in the final quarter last night, if we bring that level next week, get Kearney, Henshaw and Ringrose back, start Toner to strengthen the lineout and the attacking maul, added to the inevitable raising of the game that playing NZ brings...then I think we have a chance.

Still not convinced James Ryan can function a lineout to international level yet. He always has 2/3 dodgy takes and sometimes loses altogether.

prawnsambo

bilston wrote: »

Best will come under pressure, but some of the lineout losses clearly has nothing to do with his throwing, the MOTM (who was excellent the second half) was responsible for one and arguably two (maybe joint responsibility with Henderson for one close to the Argentina line).

I think we looked a lot more accurate in the final quarter last night, if we bring that level next week, get Kearney, Henshaw and Ringrose back, start Toner to strengthen the lineout and the attacking maul, added to the inevitable raising of the game that playing NZ brings...then I think we have a chance.

I haven't looked at each of the lineouts again, but one of them we lost seemed to have been because they got their jumper in the air marginally quicker than us and in front of the target man. This was in their own 22. They also seemed to be jumping into the gap and almost into our side. Which would suggest that they closed the gap just before the throw. I'd need to look at it again, but that was my impression at the time.

Granny15

Granny15 wrote: »

What do you watch that sh1te for. I thought I’d noticed a sick element creeping into your posts. That sh1te wears off on you.

:pac:

Squidgy Black

I forgot how much I loved the international window. When rugby and AH collide.

WillieMason

Granny15 wrote: »

Still not convinced James Ryan can function a lineout to international level yet. He always has 2/3 dodgy takes and sometimes loses altogether.

He is not up to it

WillieMason

Try_harder wrote: »

Its not. I think you are looking for reasons to be offended

no i just dont like the caption not showing me respect its like him playing for nz and standing up in the middle of haka cause his dance is better.

irishbucsfan

Squidgy Black wrote: »

I forgot how much I loved the international window. When rugby and AH collide.

To be fair its been a fairly rocky start but you have to allow these guys time to get up to speed. Between the international windows their involvement is fairly minimal, really apart from major club rugby events towards the end of the season. You can't expect them to turn up around the first international of the season and just "get it" straight away, there's always going to be a period of finding their feet again. I'm really excited to see how they go next week after the NZ game once they've had a bit more time.

WillieMason

Deleted User wrote: »

Zzzzzzz

you vote for brexit?

Quint2010

sydthebeat wrote: »

Best typo ever

It wasn't a typo...

Squidgy Black

irishbucsfan wrote: »

To be fair its been a fairly rocky start but you have to allow these guys time to get up to speed. Between the international windows their involvement is fairly minimal, really apart from major club rugby events towards the end of the season. You can't expect them to turn up around the first international of the season and just "get it" straight away, there's always going to be a period of finding their feet again. I'm really excited to see how they go next week after the NZ game once they've had a bit more time.

I think there's a real sense of cohesion starting to build within the group after last night's performance, I can only expect to see them at full strength against the all blacks.

Clegg

Furlong's really making the most out of this tighthead playmaking role. He was used as a link man quite a few times yesterday. Think we'll see him playing a lot more direct next week.

Try_harder

Views on yesterday? Marmion too slow, Larmour to inexperienced. Ryan Furlong O Mahony all v good. Aki Anderson solid. Best past his best

WillieMason

WillieMason wrote: »

you vote for brexit?

Yes

Diabhal Beag

Try_harder wrote: »

Aki Anderson solid

You really do have to respect Willie Anderson's comeback from a 20+ year retirement on 20 minutes notice to be played out of position.

WillieMason

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes

good luck then bye bye

WillieMason

Try_harder wrote: »

Views on yesterday? Marmion too slow, Larmour to inexperienced. Ryan Furlong O Mahony all v good. Aki Anderson solid. Best past his best

larmour too small.marmion playing the way joe told him

MarinersBlues

Try_harder wrote: »

Views on yesterday? Marmion too slow, Larmour to inexperienced. Ryan Furlong O Mahony all v good. Aki Anderson solid. Best past his best

Larmour is an exceptional winger not a full back.

Marmion put in a massive defensive shift in the first half and scored a smart try.
His passing was not exceptional but not terrible.
Joe has always seemed to put a lot of value on Marmion's defensive capabilities.

Deusexmachina

Granny15 wrote: »

Still not convinced James Ryan can function a lineout to international level yet. He always has 2/3 dodgy takes and sometimes loses altogether.

Sorry but wtf? First you have completely dismissed Larmour and now you are doubting Ryan.

Larmour had a mixed game - some good and some bad - against excellent oppositon on a tough night. He is a brilliant player and will get even better with experience.

Ryan is superb - leave him alone.

prawnsambo

MarinersBlues wrote: »

Larmour is an exceptional winger not a full back.

Marmion put in a massive defensive shift in the first half and scored a smart try.
His passing was not exceptional but not terrible.
Joe has always seemed to put a lot of value on Marmion's defensive capabilities.

Yeah, he's a very good defender and has a really good tackle technique. Also smart at taking the right option when takinig the ball on himself. Not something he was particularly good at early in his career, would often run up blind alleys and get turned over. The only criticism I'd have now is that his pass can often be a bit 'floaty' which gives me the sweats about getting intercepted.

flange888

We should listen to ourselves sometimes... hated the way the media kinda commented on last night's game as a disappointing performance, its like they expected the team to show up and hammer Argentina...Argentina are a quality side and a 28-17 win against any top tier team is a good win especially in the prevailing conditions

Dubinusa

How fortunes change in a week!! Last week Larmour was the resurrection of Christ, this week he's Brian Cowen.
Larmour has 1 yr of professional rugby under his belt. He's been sensational! He will improve with time as will Stockdale and Carberry. He is not the finished product.
Remember the qf at the last rwc? How Argentina got wide and exposed RK and DK.
I remember RK and stockdale got razzed for Thomas' try in the 6nations past. All players have some vulnerability. Larmour is young enough to fix his. Maybe, he is not the best option at fb now, but he will improve. We do not get gems coming through like Larmour. He was Brilliant in the 6nations. He was exceptional for Leinster last season and is playing superbly this year.
SOB is too much of a risk imo, at this stage. He's played little rugby over the past 3 yrs and his physical health is a crapshoot. He's played maybe 3 or 4 games in a row and then he's out with injury for months. I think he's a waste of a pick going forward as he would be a doubt to get through the rwc healthy. It's probably time to give VDF or Leavy the jersey.

prawnsambo

flange888 wrote: »

We should listen to ourselves sometimes... hated the way the media kinda commented on last night's game as a disappointing performance, its like they expected the team to show up and hammer Argentina...Argentina are a quality side and a 28-17 win against any top tier team is a good win especially in the prevailing conditions

To be fair, it's not because we didn't run away with it or hammer Argentina. It was the many errors that were made, especially in the first half. I'll give Argentina credit for the lineout problems, because they competed well there, but we had some poor defensive errors and especially for their try when we had two front rows as the last two defenders on the leftt and they were too far infield. That was a bad error in defensive organisation. A lot of silly errors when we really should be ramping up performances towards the ABs game.


On the other hand, there was a lot of time lost going to Chicago and back, so perhaps that was a factor.

Granny15

Deusexmachina wrote: »

Sorry but wtf? First you have completely dismissed Larmour and now you are doubting Ryan.

Larmour had a mixed game - some good and some bad - against excellent oppositon on a tough night. He is a brilliant player and will get even better with experience.

Ryan is superb - leave him alone.

I questioned the reasons for Larmour mediocrity in sweeping up high balls. I didn’t write him off in fact contrary to many posters on here I believe his future to be at full back. As for Ryan our lineout creaks a lot when he plays. All I’m saying is that a players position shouldn’t be solidified if they can’t do the core nuts and bolts of their job to perfection.

Granny15

Dubinusa wrote: »

How fortunes change in a week!! Last week Larmour was the resurrection of Christ, this week he's Brian Cowen.
Larmour has 1 yr of professional rugby under his belt. He's been sensational! He will improve with time as will Stockdale and Carberry. He is not the finished product.
Remember the qf at the last rwc? How Argentina got wide and exposed RK and DK.
I remember RK and stockdale got razzed for Thomas' try in the 6nations past. All players have some vulnerability. Larmour is young enough to fix his. Maybe, he is not the best option at fb now, but he will improve. We do not get gems coming through like Larmour. He was Brilliant in the 6nations. He was exceptional for Leinster last season and is playing superbly this year.
SOB is too much of a risk imo, at this stage. He's played little rugby over the past 3 yrs and his physical health is a crapshoot. He's played maybe 3 or 4 games in a row and then he's out with injury for months. I think he's a waste of a pick going forward as he would be a doubt to get through the rwc healthy. It's probably time to give VDF or Leavy the jersey.

Agreed on SOB. He’s out for the foreseeable but I think Leavy offers more to Ireland than even VDF with his tackle stats and gain line breaking carries. Leavy just raises his game for Ireland in a way you can’t measure in stats.

joseywhales

Granny15 wrote: »

Agreed on SOB. He’s out for the foreseeable but I think Leavy offers more to Ireland than even VDF with his tackle stats and gain line breaking carries. Leavy just raises his game for Ireland in a way you can’t measure in stats.

Ah I think you just play whomever is available based on their form and ability. Noone can avoid a broken arm in a tackle, it wasn't a reoccurrence of a long term injury thank God. Backrows are dropping like flies , you need about 8 in total to maintain a season.

Deusexmachina

Granny15 wrote: »

I questioned the reasons for Larmour mediocrity in sweeping up high balls. I didn’t write him off in fact contrary to many posters on here I believe his future to be at full back. As for Ryan our lineout creaks a lot when he plays. All I’m saying is that a players position shouldn’t be solidified if they can’t do the core nuts and bolts of their job to perfection.

Fair enough on Larmour (though I question the term 'mediocrity'). But you are being harsh on Ryan. He is absolutely outstanding. Last night our lineout catchers included O'Brien, Henderson, O'Mahony, Stander, Ryan (Toner and Leavy).. not fair to blame it all on Ryan. Best is far from a great line out thrower also.

Anyway, even if Ryan is not the line out operator that Toner is (for obvious reasons), his workrate, ball handling, tackling, carrying and running are exemplary and more than justify his claim to the shirt as a first choice.