ASTI ballot

doc_17

judeboy101 wrote: »

Since they are majority non secondary school teachers and don't get affected to the extent that we do in our daily working lives, they can't be blamed for voting the way their constituents want. The game is rigged against secondary school teachers in the tui when it comes to representation.

Have you figures for that?

Education matters

judeboy101 wrote: »

Since they are majority non secondary school teachers and don't get affected to the extent that we do in our daily working lives, they can't be blamed for voting the way their constituents want. The game is rigged against secondary school teachers in the tui when it comes to representation.

TUI has 19 on its Exec, 5 are 3rd level.3rd level lecturers were also involved in this vote as their new entrants are also affected. They do not vote on ballots that are for second level members only like JC previously. TUI does not allow retired members to vote either as those members will not be teaching the new curriculum. We had this clarified at a branch meeting

judeboy101

doc_17 wrote: »

Have you figures for that?

https://www.tui.ie/about-tui/executive-committee-and-staff.156.html

I count 10 non secondary school teachers

Education matters

judeboy101 wrote: »

https://www.tui.ie/about-tui/executive-committee-and-staff.156.html

I count 10 non secondary school teachers

Yes, and the Prison people teach JC and LC as do FE colleges, VTOS, YOUTHREACH etc so they are entitled to vote. The President is also a secondary school teacher

Mardy Bum

Education matters wrote: »

TUI has 19 on its Exec, 5 are 3rd level.3rd level lecturers were also involved in this vote as their new entrants are also affected. They do not vote on ballots that are for second level members only like JC previously. TUI does not allow retired members to vote either as those members will not be teaching the new curriculum. We had this clarified at a branch meeting

They also don't accept members from the ASTI when unions are in the middle of industrial action.

Oh wait.

judeboy101

Education matters wrote: »

Yes, and the Prison people teach JC and LC as do FE colleges, VTOS, YOUTHREACH etc so they are entitled to vote. The President is also a secondary school teacher

But they are not secondary school teachers, that's the point. President is 2ndry, VP isn't, last president wasn't 2ndry i believe. How can a union with a huge majority of 2ndry school teachers end up with a minority representation? It's set up that way, that's how.

acequion

gaiscioch wrote: »

Genuinely hard to fathom why the TUI Executive Committee are so spineless and unprincipled. Their disconnect is fairly astounding now.

That they've been hoovering up new members at the expense of the ASTI, a majority of whose members maintain their principled opposition to these sham "reforms", will forever be a stain on that union's character and its leadership's integrity. A cynic might think the main goal of the TUI is to become the biggest secondary school teachers' union at any cost.

The TUI Executive Committee, and their flaccid membership, are the useful idiots for every Irish government's attempt to undermine the teaching profession. Divide and conquer only ever works if you can purchase one section. The TUI is, consistently, that section. Consistently. When they've spent their 30 pieces of silver, what then? Our conditions will be back to the conditions of Irish teachers decades ago, conditions which will be reduced further in the next recession (has anybody even thought that far ahead yet?). It is the terms and conditions of every teacher which have suffered, and will continue to suffer, from this pernicious cancer that is the existence of more than one secondary school teachers' union.

Most of all, the vast majority of these "reforms" are nothing of the sort. They remain a sham that's desperately in need of being exposed. Having attended a cluster day recently, the work rate they are expecting from teachers for this new JC is comical, so comical that it's all going to turn into a box ticking exercise (to state the blindingly obvious). Nobody is tackling how, and why, these "reforms" failed in England. In detail. Absolute silence. Not a single academic in any Irish university's Education department, or in the employment of the ASTI, has any research done on the model which our system is emulating.

gaiscioch, while I completely agree with 99% of this as indeed I do with all your posts on this matter,it's not quite accurate to say that nobody is tackling the problem. Dr Geraldine Mooney Simmie of UL comes to mind here, who was very vocal and outspoken against Junior Cycle reform and published papers about it,https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.2304/csee.2014.13.3.185
In fact she was guest speaker at the 2017 ASTI conference and spoke really eloquently, even winning over the conservatives in the union with her excellent arguments.

And I think there are many like her. I attended an ASTI run conference celebrating free education in Ireland earlier this year, where a number of academics were guest speakers and what was striking was how irreverent and scathing they all were about recent education policy and reform. In fact one even suggested that the continuing success of Irish education was down to the teachers who largely resist a lot of the nonsense reforms and teach with common sense.

So there definitely are a lot of highly placed people out there calling the Government on all this rubbish. The problem,I think, lies in our almost propaganda style media, pro Government propaganda, where you rarely hear the dissenting voice. The general public have been systematically brainwashed against the public service for so many years now and never get to hear the other side of the argument. And such blatant bias is very worrying in a democracy.

Anyone in any doubt that our little country festers in corruption need only watch the recent Maurice McCabe documentary. Maybe what went on there was the extreme end of corruption or maybe it's the norm,it's abhorrent in any case. And also typifies the need for ordinary people to constantly stand up,mobilise and oppose what they see as wrong. Unlike the French, who refuse to take the BS doled out to them, we Irish, are a nation of sheep.

deiseindublin

TUI are an absolute disgrace, that's a given. I haven't felt represented by them in a very long time.

If their meeting in Lucan before the last ballot was anything to go by, they have totally lost their way. Basically said we know best, it's too confusing for you to understand, and scaremongering for a YES without having the gumption to admit it.

One would be excused for wondering if it was just plain auld backhanders at play, at least it would explain the constant government led race to the bottom.

evolving_doors

Education matters wrote: »

TUI has 19 on its Exec, 5 are 3rd level.3rd level lecturers were also involved in this vote as their new entrants are also affected. They do not vote on ballots that are for second level members only like JC previously. TUI does not allow retired members to vote either as those members will not be teaching the new curriculum. We had this clarified at a branch meeting

They are not allowed to vote on JC stuff. But I thought they were allowed to vote on matters pension and pay related!?

doc_17

Ah here, backhanders corruption, you would want to have some evidence before putting something like that up. Go away and cop yourselves on! Some of you sound as nuts as Gemma O’Doherty!

Education matters

evolving_doors wrote: »

They are not allowed to vote on JC stuff. But I thought they were allowed to vote on matters pension and pay related!?

Yeah they vote on matters that effect them, that’s why lecturers throughout the country voted on the deal because they have new entrants too.

Bobtheman

INTO go out we go out. INTO don't we don't. It's that simple.
Be the change you want to see in the union. I wonder how many posters here have been to a branch meeting lately ?
Thinking can change in the future fo r the Asti back to more militant days. Just can't see next few years

Mardy Bum

Bobtheman wrote: »

INTO go out we go out. INTO don't we don't. It's that simple.
Be the change you want to see in the union. I wonder how many posters here have been to a branch meeting lately ?

INTO won't be going out. They only narrowly rejected the deal and they need a mandate of 66%. Realistically, it looks like both unions will fail to repudiate it and will receive the "benefits".

With the TUI not rejecting it, we are between a rock and a hard place.

It is a moral victory of sorts.

Bobtheman

Mardy Bum wrote: »

INTO won't be going out. They only narrowly rejected the deal and they need a mandate of 66%. Realistically, it looks like both unions will fail to repudiate it and will receive the "benefits".

With the TUI not rejecting it, we are between a rock and a hard place.

It is a moral victory of sorts.

It's a hill of manure without some industrial action

deiseindublin

doc_17 wrote: »

Ah here, backhanders corruption, you would want to have some evidence before putting something like that up. Go away and cop yourselves on! Some of you sound as nuts as Gemma O’Doherty!

I didn't say there WAS corruption, and I didn't say by whom, I said you would be excused for wondering.

Sir123

We really need INTO on our side this time. Them alone would cause chaos no doubt. Do we know when they're actually going to ballot members for industrial action? I think the month's consultation was really only to buy time and see how ASTI would vote. Hopefully they feel more confident now.

doc_17

deiseindublin wrote: »

I didn't say there WAS corruption, and I didn't say by whom, I said you would be excused for wondering.

I’m not just referring to comments made by you. I swear to god you’d nearly need a tin bag in this thread.

acequion

doc_17 wrote: »

I’m not just referring to comments made by you. I swear to god you’d nearly need a tin bag in this thread.

I'm laughing at you at this stage, your stance is such a joke. Shur what lunacy to suggest corruption or backhanders :pac: Shur that sort of thing never, ever happens in our saintly country.:pac: It would be inconceivable :eek:

I give up on you :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

ethical

This country is as corrupt as a summers day is long and teaching is unfortunately totally rotten to the core,did you see the carry on in the Primetime Investigates,two West of Ireland schools in the dock over applying for and receiving funds under false pretences..........and some of the messages on here are tainted of this corruption that is rife in our once decent section of society! I ve seen it first hand where Union officers "sit in " on appeals processes for Posts etc and are only there as a token gesture of pacifying the teacher that is appealing,they are easily "bought",a "free lunch" etc plus travelling expenses will get the desired result!
There is so much money wasted in this country and particularly in education that all lower paid teachers could have parity of pay if there was an indepth enquiry into ETBs and CEIST run schools,of course this will never happen as certain pigs will feed from the same trough no matter what.No morals,no shame and do not get me started on the Annual Conferences,I went along once and was abhorred by the way "so called professionals" could not act with any manners and decency when some hard working officials were doing their best to try and make life better for the teacher.
The ASTI will not go on strike,why punish themselves any further,why delay increments/why have increment freezes forced on themselves again when the extremely bad mannered TUI will do FCUK ALL and still reap the benefits.
The INTO will not strike either.The whinging and moaning will be dragged out for another year ,until talks begin middle of next year for a new pay agreement to follow on this present one.Perhaps then there will be a package available but I would not hold my breath!

acequion

ethical wrote: »

This country is as corrupt as a summers day is long and teaching is unfortunately totally rotten to the core,did you see the carry on in the Primetime Investigates,two West of Ireland schools in the dock over applying for and receiving funds under false pretences..........and some of the messages on here are tainted of this corruption that is rife in our once decent section of society! I ve seen it first hand where Union officers "sit in " on appeals processes for Posts etc and are only there as a token gesture of pacifying the teacher that is appealing,they are easily "bought",a "free lunch" etc plus travelling expenses will get the desired result!
There is so much money wasted in this country and particularly in education that all lower paid teachers could have parity of pay if there was an indepth enquiry into ETBs and CEIST run schools,of course this will never happen as certain pigs will feed from the same trough no matter what.No morals,no shame and do not get me started on the Annual Conferences,I went along once and was abhorred by the way "so called professionals" could not act with any manners and decency when some hard working officials were doing their best to try and make life better for the teacher.
The ASTI will not go on strike,why punish themselves any further,why delay increments/why have increment freezes forced on themselves again when the extremely bad mannered TUI will do FCUK ALL and still reap the benefits.
The INTO will not strike either.The whinging and moaning will be dragged out for another year ,until talks begin middle of next year for a new pay agreement to follow on this present one.Perhaps then there will be a package available but I would not hold my breath!

Agree with most of this ethical and yes some of the shenanigans in this country would make the mafia look like alter boys.

However, cynicism won't achieve anything and unfortunately cynicism is alive and well in Ireland. But there is always hope and maybe I'm a cock eyed optimist but with excellent activist groups around like Fightback, Glor, TUI grassroots and many decent ordinary people who are utterly sick of what the Govt has got away with, this could well be the time when the unthinkable happens and the unions really stand up and stay up. Remember the nurses are also readying themselves for action.

I feel cautiously optimistic, but it might all be just another hot air moment. We just have to wait and see.

evolving_doors

Once it's after Christmas it's too late.

Benicetomonty

evolving_doors wrote: »

Once it's after Christmas it's too late.

Tend to agree with this. Despite one of the pointed aims of the new Junior Cycle being to avoid an emphasis on written exams, at senior level, they are still sacrosanct. Anything that compromises or even comes close to compromising them will be regarded as the nuclear option that simply wont be taken by the unions. That includes the pantomime that is mock exams. Now, thats obviously less of an issue for the INTO as representatives of primary teachers but how they achieve a 66.6pc majority for industrial action is equally inconceivable.

I still think the ASTI missed its greatest chance to seize the inititiative during the last campaign. As soon as the govt suggested that permanent teachers who were over quota would be subject to redundancy owing to the withdrawel of the redeployment scheme, the game was there to be won. Even Irish Times journalists hinted at the recklessness of that shout because you were threatening to punish a tiny number of utterly competent teachers for no other reason except to show the scope of FEMPI's brutality. Everybody knew that ICTU couldnt and wouldnt stand for such a move and would have moved against any such move, regardless of their acceptance of Lansdowne. ASTI were thrown an absolute gift. They shouldve said, thats grand, the second you move to sack one of those over-quota teachers, we refuse to cooperate with the state exams, then sat back and got the popcorn out, watching a game of chicken that the govt were destined to lose.
But they didnt. Instead they moved to do their utmost to calm the waters by agreeing to do the jct English Assessment Task whilst (if what I heard was true) waiting for/assisting the members in question to move to the TUI so the number of over quota teachers was at zero by May 2017. If we didnt move to threaten the exam system then, we never will. IMHO.

Millem

Any TUI members get the letter today on pay equality?

SligoBrewer

Millem wrote: »

Any TUI members get the letter today on pay equality?

Saw it posted online. They're rattled and I wouldn't be surprised if they are losing members.

Millem

SligoBrewer wrote: »

Saw it posted online. They're rattled and I wouldn't be surprised if they are losing members.

Is the jist of it......tui will go on strike if into and asti go on strike?

SligoBrewer

Millem wrote: »

Is the jist of it......tui will go on strike if into and asti go on strike?

Yes.
https://www.facebook.com/EqualPayforNQTs/posts/1628919380740704?__xts__[0]=68.ARDA7flL8IChHbulfgDyGNb4BjbaFhEhh-0sYnJPiP9-0oK8sBv7ycdrrzcxLUtmXRFed0RVtwGg4TyWB7YtPGJuNvNhPj16jymJ7Lug8pzR3UVejuJJ1kDWc7MVbBEoEU_TABIre_grKRrTCkwa7MFzh5srrK97HV7PGNFnx7LwSEkczocQ-1CsueUtUTyhT_JeXZcGrMecIf-suFCBNXb5piMHUNHjej-VcEaPbeC7vpdqR_uS4oHqLatLrvZV0nBXu6S09PI8ZLq359G_kMoQtKDRfHX4FowCsIuYgL-XzU_5E4weK3O7z0XPdWA0LTW36D2M8F2Oy9SUEE7erX-bycvU&__tn__=-R

evolving_doors

Millem wrote: »

Is the jist of it......tui will go on strike if into and asti go on strike?

Tis all confusing, so basically they are saying "oh, well we always had a mandate to strike actually so it's up to the ASTI and TUI now"...

so if they always had a mandate to strike, why did they take a vote on it if the mandate was there? Can someone shed some light on this for me

Millem

evolving_doors wrote: »

Tis all confusing, so basically they are saying "oh, well we always had a mandate to strike actually so it's up to the ASTI and TUI now"...

so if they always had a mandate to strike, why did they take a vote on it if the mandate was there? Can someone shed some light on this for me

I couldn’t really understand it tbh!
Although Into and asti voted no if they don’t strike then they will get the increases? Or am I reading this incorrectly?

Benicetomonty

Millem wrote: »

I couldn’t really understand it tbh!
Although Into and asti voted no if they don’t strike then they will get the increases? Or am I reading this incorrectly?

That was always the case. Whether or not you accepted it, the govt considers unions inside the agreement until they refuse to cooperate with some aspect of it via industrial action. That is considered to be a repudiation and then out comes FEMPI.

deiseindublin

The letter is absolute bullsh*t. They're basically trying to put it that they're ahead of the ASTI and INTO after scaremongering for a Yes, yeah right. More likely they are being called out on not representing their members best interests and are trying to take the heat out of it.

I mean, really, would ASTI ever work with them again, after them proving themselves to have no stamina for dispute, no negotiations skills or and no self respect? I don't think so.