ASTI ballot

acequion

doc_17 wrote: »

All this talk of shame on the TUI....If the INTO and ASTI go out on strike and win the day then it’s correct. But until that happens it’s an insulting statement.

I think we all know there’ll be no strikes as the ASTI were badly burned last time and the INTO are well, the INTO. And sitting waving a rejection of a pay deal is nothing the government are worried about.

And the TUI are, well the TUI!!

The union who is always the first to cave into Govt demands and run scared at threats, the union who left ASTI out in the cold on many occasions. And worse, the union who poached dissident ASTI members during a dispute, a disgusting act of trade union betrayal.

So I wouldn't be getting up on my high horse if I were you!

Nellieelephant

Insulting ? Insulting is poaching members during an industrial dispute. Insulting is voting to accept a pay deal that is not acceptable for LPTs. Maybe the government is not worried but at least the ASTI are a committed and morally purposeful union. Voting yes was and is insulting.

doc_17 wrote: »

All this talk of shame on the TUI....If the INTO and ASTI go out on strike and win the day then it’s correct. But until that happens it’s an insulting statement.

I think we all know there’ll be no strikes as the ASTI were badly burned last time and the INTO are well, the INTO. And sitting waving a rejection of a pay deal is nothing the government are worried about.

SligoBrewer

doc_17 wrote: »

All this talk of shame on the TUI....If the INTO and ASTI go out on strike and win the day then it’s correct. But until that happens it’s an insulting statement.

What was insulting to LPTs was accepting that pay agreement having the top brass advocate a Yes vote on the sly.

ASTI have never accepted a pay agreement that did not have Equal Pay for Equal Work, and it's time that people realised that.

Mardy Bum

If the ballot for a strike is rejected is the deal then accepted indirectly?

Sir123

I am extremely delighted with the result today. It's good to see two unions on the same page here. TUI just useless. Can't say any more than that really, total pushovers.

As an earlier poster said, it's not just about LPT pay here. We have a permanent prd arriving in January as well as the continuation of utterly useless Croke Park Hours and an increased workload at every possible angle, really seeing it this year to be honest.

I think our public sector is crumbling in this country. People have really had enough and LPTs have suffered one of the worst with the abolition of qualification allowances as well as the standard 10% cut as we all very well know. Pre 2011 teachers have also taken huge hits and it's totally not fair.

It's time now that both unions are balloted for industrial action and that a continued strike occurs simultaneously. We cannot stand down this time. Strikes should continue well past Feb/March, we need to vote for this first though.

In other news Pascal mentions this evening that he is "disappointed with the result" and highlights that only those inside the agreement can get the benefits of the deal.

I don't think this Fine Gael government understand that there clearly aren't any benefits to this deal, INTO, ASTI and nurses clearly do not see this. We have to make the next step and continue this fight.

SligoBrewer

Mardy Bum wrote: »

If the ballot for a strike is rejected is the deal then accepted indirectly?

Given the power and the severity of FEMPI legislation, I don't think so.

Still, I want to strike and stand up for ourselves. Every young teacher deserves equality.
This evening I'm thinking of the many LPTs in the TUI who are not being listened to within their own union. There's enough of them there fighting the fight as much as we are and they are by no choice of their own on the wrong side of the tracks.

We're fighting for them too, even if their top table don't care.

gaiscioch

Genuinely hard to fathom why the TUI Executive Committee are so spineless and unprincipled. Their disconnect is fairly astounding now.

That they've been hoovering up new members at the expense of the ASTI, a majority of whose members maintain their principled opposition to these sham "reforms", will forever be a stain on that union's character and its leadership's integrity. A cynic might think the main goal of the TUI is to become the biggest secondary school teachers' union at any cost.

The TUI Executive Committee, and their flaccid membership, are the useful idiots for every Irish government's attempt to undermine the teaching profession. Divide and conquer only ever works if you can purchase one section. The TUI is, consistently, that section. Consistently. When they've spent their 30 pieces of silver, what then? Our conditions will be back to the conditions of Irish teachers decades ago, conditions which will be reduced further in the next recession (has anybody even thought that far ahead yet?). It is the terms and conditions of every teacher which have suffered, and will continue to suffer, from this pernicious cancer that is the existence of more than one secondary school teachers' union.

Most of all, the vast majority of these "reforms" are nothing of the sort. They remain a sham that's desperately in need of being exposed. Having attended a cluster day recently, the work rate they are expecting from teachers for this new JC is comical, so comical that it's all going to turn into a box ticking exercise (to state the blindingly obvious). Nobody is tackling how, and why, these "reforms" failed in England. In detail. Absolute silence. Not a single academic in any Irish university's Education department, or in the employment of the ASTI, has any research done on the model which our system is emulating.

doc_17

If the TUI’s executive committee are spineless then so are the ASTI’s A’s didn’t they put it out to ballot without a recommendation? And to hear them yesterday on the radio wouldn’t lead you to believe they’ll be leading you into battle anytime soon.

Also, there’s not much between the unions is there? 53-47 as opposed to 47-53?

Nothing will come of the ASTI and INTO rejections unless they go out and all out and stay out.

judeboy101

gaiscioch wrote: »

Genuinely hard to fathom why the TUI Executive Committee are so spineless and unprincipled. Their disconnect is fairly astounding now.

That they've been hoovering up new members at the expense of the ASTI, a majority of whose members maintain their principled opposition to these sham "reforms", will forever be a stain on that union's character and its leadership's integrity. A cynic might think the main goal of the TUI is to become the biggest secondary school teachers' union at any cost.

The TUI Executive Committee, and their flaccid membership, are the useful idiots for every Irish government's attempt to undermine the teaching profession. Divide and conquer only ever works if you can purchase one section. The TUI is, consistently, that section. Consistently. When they've spent their 30 pieces of silver, what then? Our conditions will be back to the conditions of Irish teachers decades ago, conditions which will be reduced further in the next recession (has anybody even thought that far ahead yet?). It is the terms and conditions of every teacher which have suffered, and will continue to suffer, from this pernicious cancer that is the existence of more than one secondary school teachers' union.

Most of all, the vast majority of these "reforms" are nothing of the sort. They remain a sham that's desperately in need of being exposed. Having attended a cluster day recently, the work rate they are expecting from teachers for this new JC is comical, so comical that it's all going to turn into a box ticking exercise (to state the blindingly obvious). Nobody is tackling how, and why, these "reforms" failed in England. In detail. Absolute silence. Not a single academic in any Irish university's Education department, or in the employment of the ASTI, has any research done on the model which our system is emulating.

Majority are not secondary school teachers on exec. Funny feeling its gerrymandered that way.

doc_17

SligoBrewer wrote: »

What was insulting to LPTs was accepting that pay agreement having the top brass advocate a Yes vote on the sly.

ASTI have never accepted a pay agreement that did not have Equal Pay for Equal Work, and it's time that people realised that.

See, I voted to reject the deal. But it’s the muck that I’m reading that is clear rubbish, BS, lies or just plainly untrue and easily demonstrated as such that is astounding in this thread!!!

https://www.asti.ie/haddington-road-agreement-timeline-of-events/

acequion

doc_17 wrote: »

If the TUI’s executive committee are spineless then so are the ASTI’s A’s didn’t they put it out to ballot without a recommendation? And to hear them yesterday on the radio wouldn’t lead you to believe they’ll be leading you into battle anytime soon.

Also, there’s not much between the unions is there? 53-47 as opposed to 47-53?

Nothing will come of the ASTI and INTO rejections unless they go out and all out and stay out.

While ye sit back on yer arses like ye do every time, yet still pocket any gains. Is that what you mean???

doc_17 wrote: »

See, I voted to reject the deal. But it’s the muck that I’m reading that is clear rubbish, BS, lies or just plainly untrue and easily demonstrated as such that is astounding in this thread!!!

https://www.asti.ie/haddington-road-agreement-timeline-of-events/

Your attitude is just unbelievable!! We're posting "muck," "rubbish", "BS" and "lies" and you're somehow right are you?? And you post a timeline of events from the ASTI web page to try to prove just what exactly?? You're acting like a really difficult, defensive teenager who is 500% wrong, so wrong that even the dogs in the street would be laughing.

First off, you say the ASTI executive are as spineless as yer excuse for an executive!! You also say in an earlier post that ASTI were badly burned last time. So why is that do you think? And why did the executive err on the side of caution this time by not issuing a recommendation? Because our Judas sister union TUI keeps on stabbing us in the back, that's why!! We got burned because the other second level union had already signed up to everything,thereby hugely weakening,if not downright destroying our campaigns and then helping themselves to our wavering members for good measure! Oh and of course benefitting from any small gains.Such as being able to buy out of S&S. Or the 40 mins professional time. All conceded from ASTI actions. And they've been doing that kind of thing as long as I remember, way back to the benchmarking strikes of the early noughties. Always ASTI fighting the good fight. ALONE. And always having to give in in the end. Therefore, the no recommendation stance from our executive is very understandable given the history [though I personally disagreed] And once that stance was decided there was absolutely no attempt by any element of the ASTI to bully or frighten members into really voting Yes, unlike TUI, where active attempts to do just that were well documented. See Tui grassroots page on facebook.

You badly need to cop on to yourself and stop trying to defend the glaringly indefensible. There is a weak element in all PS unions and none of them are anywhere near as fighting as we'd like, but the TUI have become a liability! Very worryingly so. As another poster pointed out, what happens in the next recession? It doesn't bear thinking about and with TUI such a weak link among teacher trade unions, it's not hard to imagine how we'll be slaughtered.

Bobtheman

Let's take a reality check here. How many agreements has the Asti rejected ? How many strike days have we had? 2 ?! I won't vote Yes to a strike mandate until the INTO is on board. I don't think the INTO will strike as I can't recall the INTO striking in my lifetime. However let's wait and see.
I won't hand SC a blank cheque and anybody who thinks this no vote will lead to a long strike is being naive . Hope springs eternal but let's take it one step at a time people.
Lots of no voters have no intention of striking . Think back to November strike. Youd think they were about to starve after 2 days.

Mardy Bum

I cannot see a strike happening. As mentioned lots of no voters will have an eye on CID's. Most will not give up an increment and the lads and ladies at the top table won't recommend it. As mentioned they were hoping for a Yes regardless of what the timeline says.

Benicetomonty

Agree nothing will happen unless the INTO do the inconceivable and vote to strike. Cant see that happening....buttt

If it does happen, and ASTI goes out after em (and even if they dont tbh), I firmly believe pay inequality is over within a week. All the unions are looking for is a timeline. Even if the govt have to upgrade every post 2011 public servant's pay, theyve narrowed the gap enough that I dont think not committing to closing the gap altogether is going to be worth the hassle of schools closing indefinitely to them.

But its a big if. Probably too big.

SligoBrewer

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Agree nothing will happen unless the INTO do the inconceivable and vote to strike. Cant see that happening....buttt

If it does happen, and ASTI goes out after em (and even if they dont tbh), I firmly believe pay inequality is over within a week. All the unions are looking for is a timeline. Even if the govt have to upgrade every post 2011 public servant's pay, theyve narrowed the gap enough that I dont think not committing to closing the gap altogether is going to be worth the hassle of schools closing indefinitely to them.

But its a big if. Probably too big.

Primary Teachers hold all the power.

deiseindublin

Well done Asti.

I'm totally sick of the TUI, I've been a firm NO on each ballot to date, but reading this thread you would think that everyone in the TUI voted Yes. I think I have only met ONE person that voted for this deal. Joe soaps on the ground are entrenched and totally disillusioned with the EC.

Both TUI and Asti ballots were within 3% of parity. It's not exactly inspiring for either union.

I don't know how it can be changed but I'm beginning to agree that it's the IoTs and FE sector that is swinging ballots over the line each time for TUI.

doc_17

acequion wrote: »

While ye sit back on yer arses like ye do every time, yet still pocket any gains. Is that what you mean???




Your attitude is just unbelievable!! We're posting "muck," "rubbish", "BS" and "lies" and you're somehow right are you?? And you post a timeline of events from the ASTI web page to try to prove just what exactly?? You're acting like a really difficult, defensive teenager who is 500% wrong, so wrong that even the dogs in the street would be laughing.

First off, you say the ASTI executive are as spineless as yer excuse for an executive!! You also say in an earlier post that ASTI were badly burned last time. So why is that do you think? And why did the executive err on the side of caution this time by not issuing a recommendation? Because our Judas sister union TUI keeps on stabbing us in the back, that's why!! We got burned because the other second level union had already signed up to everything,thereby hugely weakening,if not downright destroying our campaigns and then helping themselves to our wavering members for good measure! Oh and of course benefitting from any small gains.Such as being able to buy out of S&S. Or the 40 mins professional time. All conceded from ASTI actions. And they've been doing that kind of thing as long as I remember, way back to the benchmarking strikes of the early noughties. Always ASTI fighting the good fight. ALONE. And always having to give in in the end. Therefore, the no recommendation stance from our executive is very understandable given the history [though I personally disagreed] And once that stance was decided there was absolutely no attempt by any element of the ASTI to bully or frighten members into really voting Yes, unlike TUI, where active attempts to do just that were well documented. See Tui grassroots page on facebook.

You badly need to cop on to yourself and stop trying to defend the glaringly indefensible. There is a weak element in all PS unions and none of them are anywhere near as fighting as we'd like, but the TUI have become a liability! Very worryingly so. As another poster pointed out, what happens in the next recession? It doesn't bear thinking about and with TUI such a weak link among teacher trade unions, it's not hard to imagine how we'll be slaughtered.

Yes, some of what is being posted is clearly rubbish. Someone said something untrue and I presented a link to back it up.

ASTI give no recommendation and they’re smart. TUI give no recommendation and they are gutless. That’s pathetic reasoning. And the rejection of ASTI and INTO is meaningless as it won’t be backed up by strike action.

Here’s a fact for you all. ASTI and INTO are in the PSSA. The same as the TUI. Yet the TUI are the worst kind of Union? It’s illogical how people are telling me to cop on!

SligoBrewer

doc_17 wrote: »

Yes, some of what is being posted is clearly rubbish. Someone said something untrue and I presented a link to back it up.

ASTI give no recommendation and they’re smart. TUI give no recommendation and they are gutless. That’s pathetic reasoning. And the rejection of ASTI and INTO is meaningless as it won’t be backed up by strike action.

Here’s a fact for you all. ASTI and INTO are in the PSSA. The same as the TUI. Yet the TUI are the worst kind of Union? It’s illogical how people are telling me to cop on!

It's not about the recommendation nor the grassroot LPTs who are identical to me, it's about your top table going around on the sly canvassing for acceptance.

That's why they're gutless. How could we depend on the TUI to join us in strike action when even now, 8 years on, the people at the top are saying that €150k of a deficit is as good as it gets?

judeboy101

doc_17 wrote: »

Yes, some of what is being posted is clearly rubbish. Someone said something untrue and I presented a link to back it up.

ASTI give no recommendation and they’re smart. TUI give no recommendation and they are gutless. That’s pathetic reasoning. And the rejection of ASTI and INTO is meaningless as it won’t be backed up by strike action.

Here’s a fact for you all. ASTI and INTO are in the PSSA. The same as the TUI. Yet the TUI are the worst kind of Union? It’s illogical how people are telling me to cop on!

Asti are covered by pssa, we aren't in it. Ireland is covered by nato, we aren't in it.

doc_17

SligoBrewer wrote: »

It's not about the recommendation nor the grassroot LPTs who are identical to me, it's about your top table going around on the sly canvassing for acceptance.

That's why they're gutless. How could we depend on the TUI to join us in strike action when even now, 8 years on, the people at the top are saying that €150k of a deficit is as good as it gets?

Who said that?

Anyway, speaking of leadership, the leadership of the ASTI nearly destroyed their union with their insane actions the last time. And they’ll do nothing this time as there’s no appetite amongst their members.

doc_17

judeboy101 wrote: »

Asti are covered by pssa, we aren't in it. Ireland is covered by nato, we aren't in it.

That’s a good line. But we choose to be covered by NATO. The same way the ASTI choose to be in the PSSA.

wirelessdude01

Jesus ye are like a pack of kids arguing that black of white.

acequion

doc_17 wrote: »

Who said that?

Anyway, speaking of leadership, the leadership of the ASTI nearly destroyed their union with their insane actions the last time. And they’ll do nothing this time as there’s no appetite amongst their members.

I suppose your idea of "insane actions" is singelmindedly digging the heels in, which is how changes are forced. And I suppose you think the eventual climb down was the sensible thing to do. The kind of thing TUI always do. Which is why teaching conditions are in the sorry state they're in.But I wouldn't expect you to realise that.

You haven't a clue how things are done in ASTI, nor the mindset behind the various decisions of ASTI, nor for that matter what the "appetite" of members might be and your ignorance of such is laughable. You're like a broken record trotting out the same lines over and over and trying to defend the indefensible, which is the actions of your union. It's a pity you don't put your energies into trying to get it to change!

acequion

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Jesus ye are like a pack of kids arguing that black of white.

No wirelessdude01,we're not. TUI have become a serious liability within the teacher trade unions and a serious threat to any hopes, however slim,of clawing back some lost conditions before the next recession, which you can be certain will arrive. Therefore it has all gone beyond a bit of Internet squabbling and I have lost all patience with people trying to defend that union when they should be forcing it to be a better representation of second level teachers' needs.

Sir123

I totally believe that theTUI are insane. A union that represents both 2nd and 3rd level teachers/lecturers who have totally different jobs and responsibilities, insane. Moreover TUI CE is made up of mostly 3rd level folk if I am correct. How in turn can this bring balance and proper representation to both sectors? It can't. There should be one 2nd level union, end of.

As acequion has stated, if we continue to let the government walk over us, what will happen when another downturn happens? Everything seems to be rosy in the garden according to the news everyday, yet all public servants still fall under Fempi, should they put up their hand and answer the wrong question. Pascal will give us more than detention.

This country is becoming more and more backwards as we progress. All our fight for abortion and equality over the years is nul and void in my opinion as us LPTs continue to be treated as 2nd class teachers.

Striking together with INTO is the only way. I've said it before, shame on TUI for accepting this rubbish. A union that fails to stand up for basic conditions is not worth being a member of. Bravo INTO and ASTI who have at least said NO so far.

judeboy101

doc_17 wrote: »

That’s a good line. But we choose to be covered by NATO. The same way the ASTI choose to be in the PSSA.

Nato covers us because we don't have a Russian base or nukes based on our soil, the pssa covers us because we don't stage a mass walk out or refuse to do s&s. It's not so much we choose it as we reject the alternative.

doc_17

judeboy101 wrote: »

Nato covers us because we don't have a Russian base or nukes based on our soil, the pssa covers us because we don't stage a mass walk out or refuse to do s&s. It's not so much we choose it as we reject the alternative.

ASTI have agreed to be part of the PSSA for all intents and purposes.

And since when did the TUI become a worse union than the INTO? If ASTI think the INTO are going to do anything like what is required then they are sadly mistaken. In fact, the ASTI won’t even do it.

If I’m like a broken record do forgive me. But I can’t listen to BS like what I read over the last few pages. Don’t forget, TUI include third level lecturers so I would assume the majority of the second level teachers in the TUI rejected the PSSA and yet they are being called all sorts here on this thread. It’ll more about the ASTI if they reject and still accept than it will about the TUI.

Anyway, I await your all out strike action. Because that’s what it’ll take. And if it does happen I wish you all the very best of luck and I hope you’re successful.

deiseindublin

I wish we had all out strike, from 1st level to 3rd level. Would be sorted on the 3rd day.

(Actually, first level alone would probably sort it.)

acequion

doc_17 wrote: »

ASTI have agreed to be part of the PSSA for all intents and purposes.

And since when did the TUI become a worse union than the INTO? If ASTI think the INTO are going to do anything like what is required then they are sadly mistaken. In fact, the ASTI won’t even do it.

If I’m like a broken record do forgive me. But I can’t listen to BS like what I read over the last few pages. Don’t forget, TUI include third level lecturers so I would assume the majority of the second level teachers in the TUI rejected the PSSA and yet they are being called all sorts here on this thread. It’ll more about the ASTI if they reject and still accept than it will about the TUI.

Anyway, I await your all out strike action. Because that’s what it’ll take. And if it does happen I wish you all the very best of luck and I hope you’re successful.

One important point! My ire is most certainly not directed at ordinary grassroots members, second level teachers within either ASTI or TUI who consistently vote no to outlandish "deals." My ire is aimed squarely at the TUI executive, who are dysfunctional at best, corrupt at worst.

judeboy101

acequion wrote: »

One important point! My ire is most certainly not directed at ordinary grassroots members, second level teachers within either ASTI or TUI who consistently vote no to outlandish "deals." My ire is aimed squarely at the TUI executive, who are dysfunctional at best, corrupt at worst.

Since they are majority non secondary school teachers and don't get affected to the extent that we do in our daily working lives, they can't be blamed for voting the way their constituents want. The game is rigged against secondary school teachers in the tui when it comes to representation.