ASTI ballot

doc_17

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

Oxo cube train doesn't really roll off the tongue though

And it doesn't fit the narrative.

Bobtheman

You have two simple choices. Don't strike and work system or strike and make quicker progress. End of story.
Work to rule might be a middle ground but does not get public attention. Membership should stop whining about their mortgages. One missed payment does not bring eviction . For an educated work force we can be really thick. Btw does anyone know what happened to 1000 members who went to TUi then told they had to leave?

doc_17

Bobtheman wrote: »

You have two simple choices. Don't strike and work system or strike and make quicker progress. End of story.
Work to rule might be a middle ground but does not get public attention. Membership should stop whining about their mortgages. One missed payment does not bring eviction . For an educated work force we can be really thick. Btw does anyone know what happened to 1000 members who went to TUi then told they had to leave?

No, but it shows up on credit reports.

Icsics

Bobtheman wrote: »

You have two simple choices. Don't strike and work system or strike and make quicker progress. End of story.
Work to rule might be a middle ground but does not get public attention. Membership should stop whining about their mortgages. One missed payment does not bring eviction . For an educated work force we can be really thick. Btw does anyone know what happened to 1000 members who went to TUi then told they had to leave?

About 150 returned. ICTU complaint upheld, seems TUI using Data Protection as excuse not to write to others...issue ongoing as far as I know

Bobtheman

doc_17 wrote: »

No, but it shows up on credit reports.

Given the **** that exists out there in terms of arrears I doubt one missed mortgage payment during a strike would cause much hassle. It was embarrassing to walk by TESCO workers at the same time as our strike or thereabouts who went out for weeks.

If we constantly cower then they will constantly beat us. Im looking for a messiah in union terms but to be fair to the OP -it might be time for us all to look in the mirror and see what we are doing

acequion

Striking is fine but you have to stick with it and therein lies the problem with a lot of workers. When a majority feel strongly enough that strike is the only alternative then at that point single mindedness has to kick in. A feeling that we're in for the kill and we're going to stick with it come hell or high water.We don't care what the public thinks, we won't be conquered or divided, we won't be weakened by an offer of crumbs.

That's the mentality that wins disputes and that's what was so sadly lacking in teachers and indeed other disputes. It remains to be seen if nurses will stand their ground. If they do then I think they will win,maybe not completely,there's never an all out victor,but mostly. If they weaken, they're finished.

kala85

Bobtheman wrote: »

Union gravy train ? Was on CEC for years. Got thirty euro for my Saturday. Which was to cover a 20 mile journey and food. An oxo cube would be a better description
I think raking over past a bad idea. Blaming head office a bad idea. SC which was all elected played it poorly November 2017. Had no plan. Let's all move on

Well i know of cec reps in my union who are getting 13 to 14k for travel expenses and home office expenses tax free. Fact.


Days off school for cec meetings, days off school for conferences.

I don't think they are doing too bad out of the union.

I would have to get a pay rise of about 30k to pull in a net pay of 14k. So instead of going for principal, people should go on the cec instead.

acequion

kala85 wrote: »

So instead of going for principal, people should go on the cec instead.

What an absolutely ridiculous and uselessly inflammatory remark!!As a member of ASTI CEC I take major issue with that comment!

I receive expenses to compensate for my travel and subsistence so that my trips to Dublin to attend meetings do not have me out of pocket. End of.

Another of your crazy claims is "days off for cec meetings, days off for school conferences." Every fool knows that all three teacher conferences are held during the Easter school break. In the ASTI all CEC meetings are held on a Saturday.

Your 14K is also plucked out of the sky as it's a laughable figure.

So,don't go making ridiculous assertions like that unless you can prove them!!!

While there is unfortunately dead wood on CEC's that should be replaced by more committed individuals,going around making spurious,blatantly false claims is totally unhelpful and downright insulting!

Icsics

I think it's Standing Committe rep they're referring to

PureClareGold

acequion wrote: »

What an absolutely ridiculous and uselessly inflammatory remark!!As a member of ASTI CEC I take major issue with that comment!

I receive expenses to compensate for my travel and subsistence so that my trips to Dublin to attend meetings do not have me out of pocket. End of.

Another of your crazy claims is "days off for cec meetings, days off for school conferences." Every fool knows that all three teacher conferences are held during the Easter school break. In the ASTI all CEC meetings are held on a Saturday.

Your 14K is also plucked out of the sky as it's a laughable figure.

So,don't go making ridiculous assertions like that unless you can prove them!!!

While there is unfortunately dead wood on CEC's that should be replaced by more committed individuals,going around making spurious,blatantly false claims is totally unhelpful and downright insulting!

Genuine question. Do you get back only what you've spent or is it a set rate and by car pooling, staying in cheaper accommodation you do make money out of it?

acequion

PureClareGold wrote: »

Genuine question. Do you get back only what you've spent or is it a set rate and by car pooling, staying in cheaper accommodation you do make money out of it?

You get a subsistence rate and a milage expense which yes is a set rate. It basically pays you back what you've spent. Of course you can cut corners and make a few bob out of it and you're always going to find people who'll want to do that unfortunately. It's the average set rate for such expenses, the Dept pay its examiners less,therefore under the average. But that's hardly surprising.

SligoBrewer

Bobtheman wrote: »

For an educated work force we can be really thick. Btw does anyone know what happened to 1000 members who went to TUi then told they had to leave?

Go to your branch meeting and find out.

Bobtheman

kala85 wrote: »

Well i know of cec reps in my union who are getting 13 to 14k for travel expenses and home office expenses tax free. Fact.


Days off school for cec meetings, days off school for conferences.

I don't think they are doing too bad out of the union.

I would have to get a pay rise of about 30k to pull in a net pay of 14k. So instead of going for principal, people should go on the cec instead.

Travel expenses? There are only about 4 CEC meetings a year. Yeah sure guys from the likes of Cork etc can make a bit but they cant run their cars on fresh air. I think you might be thinking of SC members . Different thing. I would get my facts straight first.
It aint a fact when you post an anonymous allegation. Im not denying there might be s few CEC union types who somehow get on a few committees not just CEC-by being elected but I doubt they are pulling in 14k-thats bull****. However as noted you might be talking about SC? Are you
There are a few elected positions like auditor or national organizer but like all politicians they waded through a decade of meetings to get elected. I emphasis again and again-election.

acequion

4 CEC meetings a year would be tops. The set amount is 3, September, January and May. The odd year there may be an extra one and that's called a special CEC.

kala85

I didn't say that it was asti.

It is another union and its true. Ill try and get the material to back it up.

Cec meetings branch meetings, districts meetings.

Maybe 14k is at the top of the scale but it ranges from 6k to 14k depending on the distance travelled in the cec reps area.

I know this because one of the reps used to be very open on expenses and these were the amounts reported at meetings.

wirelessdude01

kala85 wrote:

Cec meetings branch meetings, districts meetings.

INTO?

kala85

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

INTO?

Yes, its Into. Sorry to inflame and annoy asti cec reps and I admire people who take on these roles and receive very little out of it.

There are 12 to 15 into cec reps from each district. I'll have to double check the actual numbers.

For starters an Into cec rep gets an allowance equivalent to an ap2 post in a primary school of 3700 approx net into their hand and the union pays the tax liability on this. This was passed at the 2017 Congress in belfast because some reps in dublin weren't getting enough from the mileage as their area wasn't a long distance mileage wise but it could take them a long time to cross the city in a car.

Everyone on the cec gets this.

They get a home office allowance as well but I'll have to double check the figures.
The get 45 c per km and standard civil service overnight rate, 147e per night.

Within their district they travel to local branch meetings to present the cec report.. These local meetings take place every quarter and these could be 10 or more branches in a district. So. 40 meetings at least per year locally.

Cec meeting once every two months and if its on Friday they get released from school with sub cover. Same for training.

Attendance at congress, and all other education , sen conferences etc which take place.

Anyway, I was astonished with the level of expenses when one of my cec reps presented them in an open manner and told members. Previously I naively thought people were doing these roles for not much. My local rep was takinh in 13k on average tax free.

Now fair enough its a time consuming role, but that's the expenses they are getting.

I will also state that it ranges from 6k to 13k depending on the area the rep covers. I know this because it was presented at the congress in belfast in 2017 as part of the argument to get an increase of the equivalent of an ap2 post added to the cec expenses.

acequion

kala85 wrote: »

Yes, its Into. Sorry to inflame and annoy asti cec reps and I admire people who take on these roles and receive very little out of it.

There are 12 to 15 into cec reps from each district. I'll have to double check the actual numbers.

For starters an Into cec rep gets an allowance equivalent to an ap2 post in a primary school of 3700 approx net into their hand and the union pays the tax liability on this. This was passed at the 2017 Congress in belfast because some reps in dublin weren't getting enough from the mileage as their area wasn't a long distance mileage wise but it could take them a long time to cross the city in a car.

Everyone on the cec gets this.

They get a home office allowance as well but I'll have to double check the figures.
The get 45 c per km and standard civil service overnight rate, 147e per night.

Within their district they travel to local branch meetings to present the cec report.. These local meetings take place every quarter and these could be 10 or more branches in a district. So. 40 meetings at least per year locally.

Cec meeting once every two months and if its on Friday they get released from school with sub cover. Same for training.

Attendance at congress, and all other education , sen conferences etc which take place.

Anyway, I was astonished with the level of expenses when one of my cec reps presented them in an open manner and told members. Previously I naively thought people were doing these roles for not much. My local rep was takinh in 13k on average tax free.

Now fair enough its a time consuming role, but that's the expenses they are getting.

I will also state that it ranges from 6k to 13k depending on the area the rep covers. I know this because it was presented at the congress in belfast in 2017 as part of the argument to get an increase of the equivalent of an ap2 post added to the cec expenses.

Thank you kala85 for clarifying.

I'm quite shocked at those figures because it really does sound like a gravy train. I agree that people must be compensated for time and travel but when people are paid that kind of money they're bought. And I wonder if that's the rot within INTO. And indeed many other unions.:(

Mardy Bum

How much would the Standing Committee of the ASTI make?

SligoBrewer

Mardy Bum wrote: »

How much would the Standing Committee of the ASTI make?

Phone your SC member and ask them tbh.
I don't think people's financials should be discussed this publicly; especially viewable to non union members.

deiseindublin

SligoBrewer wrote: »

Phone your SC member and ask them tbh.
I don't think people's financials should be discussed this publicly; especially viewable to non union members.

Why not? Non teachers can look up teachers pay, non nurses can look up nurses pay, why shouldn't the figures be available?

SligoBrewer

deiseindublin wrote: »

Why not? Non teachers can look up teachers pay, non nurses can look up nurses pay, why shouldn't the figures be available?

To union members and publicly are different things.

acequion

SligoBrewer wrote: »

Phone your SC member and ask them tbh.
I don't think people's financials should be discussed this publicly; especially viewable to non union members.

I both agree and disagree Sligo Brewer. I think Irish people have a funny relationship with money which could be a throw back to our impoverished peasant past. And we find it ever so distasteful to parade pay packets in public. But though everyone is motivated by money there's major self flagellation and public vilification going on if the slightest bit of greed is detected. How fcked up really :rolleyes: Just look at the big discussion going on in AH re whether nurses deserve a pay rise and it would put hairs on your chest :eek:

But ya if people want to know what SC members receive, let them indeed look it up. It's available for public knowledge.

But I stick to my earlier point. I am all for people being paid and have no time for free labour. Which is why I'm opposed to teachers providing free extra curriculars. But there's being paid and being paid. People must absolutely be compensated for their time and certainly a travel commitment. But when you overpay you buy people. Is that happening on ASTI SC? Possibly but I don't know for sure.

Like everything in life you must have balance. Pay everybody properly,teachers, nurses,union officials, all workers public and private. And stop paying a few exorbitantly. But hey this is Ireland, so I won't hold my breath!

killbillvol2

kala85 wrote: »

Yes, its Into. Sorry to inflame and annoy asti cec reps and I admire people who take on these roles and receive very little out of it.

There are 12 to 15 into cec reps from each district. I'll have to double check the actual numbers.

For starters an Into cec rep gets an allowance equivalent to an ap2 post in a primary school of 3700 approx net into their hand and the union pays the tax liability on this. This was passed at the 2017 Congress in belfast because some reps in dublin weren't getting enough from the mileage as their area wasn't a long distance mileage wise but it could take them a long time to cross the city in a car.

Everyone on the cec gets this.

They get a home office allowance as well but I'll have to double check the figures.
The get 45 c per km and standard civil service overnight rate, 147e per night.

Within their district they travel to local branch meetings to present the cec report.. These local meetings take place every quarter and these could be 10 or more branches in a district. So. 40 meetings at least per year locally.

Cec meeting once every two months and if its on Friday they get released from school with sub cover. Same for training.

Attendance at congress, and all other education , sen conferences etc which take place.

Anyway, I was astonished with the level of expenses when one of my cec reps presented them in an open manner and told members. Previously I naively thought people were doing these roles for not much. My local rep was takinh in 13k on average tax free.

Now fair enough its a time consuming role, but that's the expenses they are getting.

I will also state that it ranges from 6k to 13k depending on the area the rep covers. I know this because it was presented at the congress in belfast in 2017 as part of the argument to get an increase of the equivalent of an ap2 post added to the cec expenses.

There are 16 CEC Reps in the INTO.

Most of the rural districts cover large areas - Clare, Tipperary and Waterford is one district, for example. Kerry and Limerick another. 45c a mile won't cover the cost of replacing your car when you drive it into the ground in a couple of years. €3,700 won't be much help either.

As to €147 per night for accommodation, maybe you could show me the options in that price range in Dublin on a Friday night?

If the job is so lucrative maybe you could explain why the position has been uncontested in a number of districts in recent years?

So while your local rep was "taking in" 13k tax free he/she was attending dozens of meetings, advising members on the phone, teaching etc. and having to listen to begrudging whingers like you by way of thanks.

If the job is so lucrative why don't you go for it?

acequion

killbillvol2 wrote: »

There are 16 CEC Reps in the INTO.

Most of the rural districts cover large areas - Clare, Tipperary and Waterford is one district, for example. Kerry and Limerick another. 45c a mile won't cover the cost of replacing your car when you drive it into the ground in a couple of years. €3,700 won't be much help either.

As to €147 per night for accommodation, maybe you could show me the options in that price range in Dublin on a Friday night?

If the job is so lucrative maybe you could explain why the position has been uncontested in a number of districts in recent years?

So while your local rep was "taking in" 13k tax free he/she was attending dozens of meetings, advising members on the phone, teaching etc. and having to listen to begrudging whingers like you by way of thanks.

If the job is so lucrative why don't you go for it?

Is that not a bit harsh?? I don't think the poster was begrudging. Just pointing out that many are only in the unions for money. And with most unions being so ineffective when it comes to fighting for their members,is it not a valid concern?

killbillvol2

kala85 wrote: »

A lot of those lads on the cec and the head office are sitting on the union gravy train.

acequion wrote: »

Is that not a bit harsh?? I don't think the poster was begrudging. Just pointing out that many are only in the unions for money. And with most unions being so ineffective when it comes to fighting for their members,is it not a valid concern?

There are far easier and less time-consuming ways of making money. and, as I said, if it's so lucrative, why do so few people want to do it?

acequion

killbillvol2 wrote: »

There are far easier and less time-consuming ways of making money. and, as I said, if it's so lucrative, why do so few people want to do it?

Far easier and less time consuming ways of making money? For teachers with little experience in other areas? Please tell us what they are?

Maybe so few want to do it because they're so utterly switched off when it comes to unions! You can't even get them to attend meetings. Nor will they even go to convention though that's well flagged as a free affair.

So you can't get people to do it. Yet many doing it are making money on it. Bit of a strange paradox yet a glaring one,don't you think!

killbillvol2

acequion wrote: »

Far easier and less time consuming ways of making money? For teachers with little experience in other areas? Please tell us what they are?

Maybe so few want to do it because they're so utterly switched off when it comes to unions! You can't even get them to attend meetings. Nor will they even go to convention though that's well flagged as a free affair.

So you can't get people to do it. Yet many doing it are making money on it. Bit of a strange paradox yet a glaring one,don't you think!

Lisren, I think the current INTO executive is the worst in my recollection. And we have our worst ever General Secretary about to be replaced by a major downgrade.

They might be spineless, ineffective and conservative. But none of them are in it for the money.

wirelessdude01

killbillvol2 wrote:

Lisren, I think the current INTO executive is the worst in my recollection. And we have our worst ever General Secretary about to be replaced by a major downgrade.

Agree on the major downgrade. Spineless and full of gift comes to mind about this individual. Hope I'm proved wrong though.

acequion

killbillvol2 wrote: »

But none of them are in it for the money.

But what are they in it for so? People are only ever involved in anything for two chief reasons:

1] For the love of it.
2] For the money.

Now when it comes to being in a union, for the love of it would imply solid trade union principles. So they don't have that and you say they're not in it for money so just what exactly are they doing there?