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The Weird, Wacky and Awesome World of the NFL - General Banter thread V3

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 34,382 ✭✭✭✭ eagle eye


    Brett Favre in a bit of hot water. He's a defendant in a civil suit brought by the State of Mississippi over the alleged misappropriation of welfare funds to build a volleyball arena in his Alma mater Southern Miss.

    There's a number of people involved in this, some who have been criminally charged and some who've already pleaded guilty. We are talking other sports stars, the Governor of Mississippi and others.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,886 ✭✭✭ Shedite27


    Are Osi and Jason Bell just doing one show a week this season? Used to like their Tuesday night show on BBC, seems to be just a Saturday night thing now that it's moved to ITV/Virgin. Bad time for highlight show to air, far too late after the games happen.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,044 ✭✭✭ The_Honeybadger


    The day is finally here. Who is ready for a Mitch Trubisky vs Jacoby Brissett Thursday Night Primetime Shootout? Over / under 38 points. I take it we are all staying up?



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,430 ✭✭✭✭ ArmaniJeanss


    TNF is often like this, because of the rule that every team must be shown once and once only (excluding the opening game & Thanksgiving).

    There are some other doozies on the way - pick your fav. Commanders Bears maybe. Or Jets Jags the Thursday before Christmas.

    Thursday Night Football schedule for 2022 NFL season - College Football HQ (si.com)



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,886 ✭✭✭ Shedite27


    Brisett o/u 182.5 passing

    Trubisky o/u 200

    Gross



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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,507 ✭✭✭✭ Realt Dearg Sec


    In fairness Steelers and Browns is always going to be a bit chippy so it will have a nice edge to it anyway. And as a Bears fan who really wants Trubisky to succeed, I'll be watching and hoping he shows he can get it done when he's not being coached by an incompetent fool whose main skill is passing the blame onto others.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,044 ✭✭✭ The_Honeybadger


    Im a Steelers fan and was being a little sarcastic but tonight’s matchup is definitely not going to whet the appetite of the casual fan. It will probably be a bit of a grind it out win for whoever comes out on top.

    Trubisky has been poor so far, he hasn’t been making horrible mistakes but he hasn’t been making any plays either. He has some good receivers who do get open but he either doesn’t see them or he just keeps checking it down as he is afraid to make a mistake. Somebody posted his passing chart on Twitter after the recent Pats game and it was an absolute joke, albeit I am sure some of it is down to the playbook.

    I don’t think he will be the starter after the bye unless something changes for the better.



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,626 ✭✭✭✭ Podge_irl


    There is no exclusions, those playing thanksgiving also only play once (its why TNF ends before the end of the season).



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,430 ✭✭✭✭ ArmaniJeanss


    They've tweaked that. Patriots play Vikings in late game on Thanksgiving this year, and also play Bills the following Thursday. Though it definitely used to be the way you suggest.



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,626 ✭✭✭✭ Podge_irl


    Oh, apologies I hadn't realised. Bit bizarre, though I suppose at least having two in a row doesn't leave them with two short weeks.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 34,382 ✭✭✭✭ eagle eye


    I just read that the Steelers are 0-5 without TJ Watt.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,507 ✭✭✭✭ Realt Dearg Sec


    I was about to turn it on and remembered tnf is only on Amazon prime. I actually have prime but haha no thanks, no way I'm supporting that move.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,478 ✭✭✭ Christy42


    Did he always have the happy feet running out of the pocket? The pass protection seems to have been fine but Trubisky has no interest in it. It nearly feels like a lot of basics are missing from his game.


    In his defense or possibly another knock is that they seem to be running a massively basic play book.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,507 ✭✭✭✭ Realt Dearg Sec


    Unfortunately from what I saw last night, there's nothing new about how he's playing. He tends to throw long passes way too high, he isn't particularly good at seeing his receivers, and yeah, he's very jumpy in the pocket (maybe he's just not used to having good pass protection, but the oline wasn't always bad in Chicago either).

    Regarding the playbook, in Chicago they famously upped the complexity of the playbook in his second year, and he wasn't able to deal with it, and they dialed it back. Nagy completely overcomplicated things, and certainly my inclination was to blame the coach, but if they are doing it again in Pittsburgh, it's a sign that he just can't handle it.

    Unfortunate, but he is what we thought he was I guess. A backup.



  • Registered Users Posts: 34,382 ✭✭✭✭ eagle eye


    He completely lost his confidence in Chicago. It's very hard to find your way back from that.

    If you seen him in college you wouldn't believe this is the same guy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,733 ✭✭✭✭ Oat23


    Mitch's failures have nothing to do with confidence. He still can't read a defense in his 6th year and he is consistently inaccurate throwing beyond 15 yards. Even in his 3rd season in Chicago when he got half decent pass protection and had weapons he would get baited by DBs into making rookie mistakes because both his pre and post snap reading of the game never improved.

    Blaming Nagy for everything is a cop out. They are both bad at their jobs.



  • Registered Users Posts: 34,382 ✭✭✭✭ eagle eye


    Go and look at his last season in college and then tell me what happened to that kid.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,733 ✭✭✭✭ Oat23


    His college tape isn't really relevant. The NFL is a different beast and he hasn't been able to make the step up. That happens all the time.

    Nice guy, but he's not an NFL starter and never will be because of his own limitations. If you want to watch relevant tape go back and watch the Falcons game from 2020, his 4th year, when he got benched in the 2nd half for Foles. The final bit of hope I had in Mitch died that game.



  • Registered Users Posts: 34,382 ✭✭✭✭ eagle eye


    It is relevant because there are certain QBs you just know are good enough. If you can find my opinions on Andrew Luck and Derek Carr you'll see how certain I was that both would make it.

    Mitch had some of that about him in college but something went wrong in the NFL. It may be a simple case of him throwing a couple of picks and the coach telling him to never throw the ball unless he's certain it'll get there and to tuck it and run. He didn't run that often in college, he ran a good bit, and he wasn't nearly as indecisive either.

    Something happened, I don't know what but he was badly affected by whatever it was.

    Below is game tape from one of his games. I couldn't get the Georgia game which would be really good to look at where he impressed against a tough defense in that game in a 40-24 loss. He didn't have much yardage in the game and didn't throw any TDs either but looked after the football and rushed for one TD.

    One of the big things in college was his reaction to pressure, if the sack was coming he accepted it and lost as little yardage as possible if he didn't have the opportunity to throw it away.

    I could put up highlights but you don't get to make decisions off highlights.




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,731 ✭✭✭ el Fenomeno


    I mean sometimes players look good in college and look bad in the NFL. He wouldn't be the first.

    I'm not going to pretend I watched every (or any) North Carolina games but having had a look at a few pre-draft profiles of him, the consensus seems to be he struggled with recognising blitzes and had poor field vision. I see nothing in his NFL career so far that suggests these takes were incorrect.

    I'd be sceptical how much responsibility he had at diagnosing and changing plays pre-snap as a one year starter too, and he doesn't seem to be too adept at it in the NFL either.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 34,382 ✭✭✭✭ eagle eye


    Pre-draft profiles are a complete joke. You have a pair of eyes and have watched enough football to have a good opinion yourself. A lot of these guys are clueless about the QB position.

    If you look back at these drafts you'll see that some of them had it right about defensive lineman, some did well with linebackers, others with safeties and so on. You'll find that very few were on it about QB's.

    These guys, nearly all of them raved about Jameis Winston and Marcus Mariota. I said both were overrated and shouldn't be picked high in the draft. I said Derek Carr was the best QB in his draft class ahead of Bortles, Manziel and Bridgewater who were all first round picks. I called Andrew Luck the most surefire success that I'd seen since Peyton Manning when he was in the draft, most agreed with that. I've done pretty well judging QB's over the years, I've got it badly wrong sometimes but overall my record is better than most of these evaluaters.

    You just have to study the position and watch game tape of successful starters and then put a list together of what you think are the most important attributes for success.

    My list starts with decision making under pressure. That's simply because I don't believe you can make positive changes in that department. The amount of highly touted QB's I've ruled out before I go any further than this category is quite large and none of them have made it in the NFL.

    My next one is how fast you can check down. This one isn't so easy because in a lot of cases college QB's on good teams don't check down because their no.1 target is just miles better than the defenders so he has no need. It's the games where it's not easy that you have to watch. This is another area where it's very difficult to improve.

    So decision making under pressure, what does this mean? So defenders are coming, what's the best option? Throw the ball away. If you don't have time to throw it away? Go down and take the sack and try avoid injury by not getting hitting hard.

    What's the worst things to do? Run backwards trying to get away, you lose big yardage doing this most of the time. Try and create a little space to throw it away, this leads to interceptions, fumbles and big losses of yardage.

    So you just have to make up your list of skills and rate them and you'll be every bit as good, if not better, than most of these so called draft gurus.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,478 ✭✭✭ Christy42


    I think Mitch has post snap issues reading the field. He doesn't know what he is looking at when they are making too many adjustments. If he knows what he is looking at he is a great top tier QB. Can't remember exactly how good Georgia were his year but the end result is a college defense won't be able to hide things and run as many variations as an NFL defense.


    In college if they had busted protection or he was unsure on a play it is easier to be sensible. Get rid of it, take the sack and move onto the next play which should be better. In the NFL you can't do that if you are unsure on nearly every play. To make it worse even if there are only a few things you have issues reading you will see them on nearly every single play in the NFL. If you can't deal with something you will see it repeatedly until you can't deal with it. Mitch is panicking not because he is more panicky than he was in college but he felt comfortable in college on most plays, he didn't have to think about his options because he knew them, now he is uncomfortable most of the time which leads to mistakes.


    Nagy did manage a weird offense to limit the issues and simply make the reads irrelevant, Steelers are doing the same - count how many times they are running the same play. However the NFL will figure that out as well, hence why it only worked for a period in Chicago and isn't working great in Pittsburgh. No idea if he can learn to run more complex offenses and deal with everything the NFL throws at him.



  • Registered Users Posts: 34,382 ✭✭✭✭ eagle eye


    You don't read the field post snap for defensive changes, you just check down to try and find an open look.

    You look for changes, blitzes and stunts pre-snap. You'll have your mind made up before you snap the ball about what's coming and your first look depends on that. You'll hear the QB calling out who is the Mike pre-snap, you'll hear them calling an adjustment or changing the play pre-snap after reading the field.

    In college against the likes of Georgia and Alabama it's just like NFL football because you don't get the time as their defenders are generally a lot stronger than your offensive line and they call stunts, blitzes etc. quite often.

    Mitch looked dreadful in his first four games in the NFL. A guy coming in would have a lot of confidence normally and his accuracy would be decent but he was very poor throwing under 50% in most of those games. Something happened between the time he left college and first started in the NFL. I'd suspect Loggins was the problem, just look at his record with QB's as an offensive co-ordinator, Bears with Mitch, then with Tanehill in Miami, Ryan got traded to for a 4th round pick going to Miami and a sixth going to the Titans after a season under him. Then he goes to New York for two years and ruins Darnold.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,478 ✭✭✭ Christy42


    Most reads are done pre snap but a QB should be checking for confirmation post snap. If the safety structure changes unexpectedly the QB will have issues seeing a safety sprinting somewhere unexpected. That means a possible interception instead of a check down as the QB won't see it without checking the safety is where expected. Many plays change the order of how routes are read depending on the safety structure or Man/Zone. A QB should be able to switch the ordering of reads post snap if needs be. The defense may show a look that gives them more rushers than there are blockers. The play will have a route that takes advantage of the space vacated by the extra rusher, or the QB will check into it. If that rusher comes he has to throw that route, if he backs off the QB should read the play as per normal. I would also argue an RPO is also a post snap read usually.


    You could argue that all of the above is part of a first read, I would argue not since the QB is not checking if the player is getting open with the rest of the defense yet but I might also argue that the difference is semantics.


    A QB won't be able to read a lot post snap due to time constraints so they will likely just have one person to check to confirm what is happening before running through reads, they don't need to do all of the above on every play as they are just different examples. Which person will depend from play to play and defensive play to defensive play. It will generally be a potentially free rusher or a safety. Not every play will need this either. This can also be incorporated into the rest of the play, so if a QB is trying to look off a Cover 1 safety then they will see if the safety is sprinting out to a Cover 2 position.


    The difference in between NFL and college is also volume and an every week thing. Georgia will run NFL concepts, in fact the Alabama defense have run things that were only taken up by the NFL afterwards. However the players don't have the same experience running these concepts and you also have less defenders to go off script a little.


    Edit: I should add that I have no idea if Mitch could have made it at a different team and I feel like a lot of "busts" are coaching busts as opposed to scouting.



  • Registered Users Posts: 34,382 ✭✭✭✭ eagle eye


    You realise the QB has about three seconds to get rid of the ball if he has an okay offensive line? If he has a less than average one he doesn't even have that long. You don't have time to read a defense after the snap. All you are doing is checking down for the open receiver. Obviously the greats can buy more time by moving around in the pocket but there's very few that can do that.

    For instance Brady makes it so simple by stepping up past the pass rush on his right , he sends bullets to his right and high floaters to his left to prevent picks. He's buying time to have more opportunities to find a receiver. Obviously he'll see trouble coming but that's not a post snap read, it's what's in your face.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,478 ✭✭✭ Christy42


    They still can't throw it before the first read is meant to get open. Checking the safety is headed in the expected direction is a fraction of a second and they should have enough time to check their first read before the route can get open. The post snap read should be a quicker step than checking if the WR will get open. This isn't about buying time. It is fitted into the timing of a play with the timing of the QB's drop and when each of the reads is designed to get open.


    I should be clear by post snap I don't mean that they are re reading the entire defense as I might be unclear on this. They will know what they think the defense is, they will know their first read is and they will know what adjustments might cause issues and they will just have an indicator for that.

    For instance you might not want to throw a post to the center of the field if it is Cover 1. If they have 1 safety deep but you think they will rotate to Cover 2 then that post might be your first read. The order might be take the snap, check the safety is starting to run away, check the receiver is winning or is winning enough that you trust them, hit the back of the drop and throw. If you immediately start looking at the receiver after the snap you will end up staring them down and not know if the safety is holding in Cover 1 or not because they are in a completely different place to where you are looking (which is at your read).


    In quick game this doesn't happen since you really don't have time but the point of that is that the defense shouldn't have time to adjust anyway.



  • Registered Users Posts: 34,382 ✭✭✭✭ eagle eye


    What you are talking about is one specific look, not at the whole defense. Pre-snap reads are the whole defense. Individual reads are part of the check down. You are only looking one way. You sometimes can see what the safety is at if he isn't eyeing you. As you said it's part of a second, a very small part and it doesn't mean your read is right either.

    Pre-snap you identify the Mike, you see how close or deep the free safety and the corners are, if the corners are standing off or up close to the line. You see what the guys on the edge are at, where the strong safety is, deeper in pass protection, in tackle mode or in blitz mode. You can't do that stuff post-snap.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,478 ✭✭✭ Christy42


    Yep agreed. I think we are talking about the same thing but using different language. I agree pre snap reads will be far more involved and detailed than anything post snap. That read might not be right and that indeed is the issue with Mitch. It is a split second check which is really, really hard and defenses are good are disguising their coverages. Mitch seems like he has everything but that which is unfortunate but you just can't have a lever opposing teams can take advantage of in the NFL



  • Registered Users Posts: 34,382 ✭✭✭✭ eagle eye


    So where are all these guys who laughed at me when I said Cooper Rush is good enough to be a starter?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,736 ✭✭✭ Foxtrol


    The only Cowboys QB that I remember people laughing at you about was when you claimed Mike White was potentially a better QB than Dak Prescott if he was just given a proper chance. That opinion was and continues to be laughable.



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