So who's going to see the Pope?

joe40

There seems to be a weird notion here that unless you fully adhere to every law in the catholic church, you can't call yourself a catholic or identify as a catholic.
That is the sort of opinion you get from the ultra right wing conservative catholics. The reality for the 1.3 billion catholics worldwide is very different. Every religion has its rules and teaching whether judaism, muslim presbyterian or whatever. The reality in every case is the religion practised by it members is on a spectrum.
I not a strong believer but since I have been baptised as a catholic, no one can take that away. The zealots may not like some of my beliefs or morals but in the absence of an excommunication, they're stuck with me.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

FrancieBrady wrote: »

that is not much different to what Francis said to the Chilean man, which you are claiming as something new and progressive

Nonsense. John Paul II, who called gay rights a "new ideology of evil," was far more harsh and doctrinaire than Francis on the topic of homosexuality.

Francis said, "God made you like this. God loves you like this." In doing so, he indicates that he accepts homosexuality as God's will, rather than representing it, as have his predecessors, as a deviant, sinful, unnatural, or evil choice by man and an affront to God. In the context of the Church's history with homosexuality, that's hugely significant.

Cabaal

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Just saw a photo online of whom greeted Frank when he steeped off the plane. Brady standing proud in the photo. This is the creature which swore 2 young boys to secrecy and thereby allowing Smyth to carry on his abuse. Yeah Frank is sorry for the abuse...kindly f**k right off.

He's surrounding himself with the best men,

They follow orders and the Vatican rules and thats important,

ELM327

joe40 wrote: »

There seems to be a weird notion here that unless you fully adhere to every law in the catholic church, you can't call yourself a catholic or identify as a catholic.
That is the sort of opinion you get from the ultra right wing conservative catholics. The reality for the 1.3 billion catholics worldwide is very different. Every religion has its rules and teaching whether judaism, muslim presbyterian or whatever. The reality in every case is the religion practised by it members is on a spectrum.
I not a strong believer but since I have been baptised as a catholic, no one can take that away. The zealots may not like some of my beliefs or morals but in the absence of an excommunication, they're stuck with me.

Self interpretation of christ's teachings has already got a religion though, it's called protestantism.
Catholicism is based on blindly believing what rome tells you.

awec

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It's quite clear (laughably so to anyone within an asses roar of a church) that people lie about mass attendance, just as they lie about observing all the other rules of the Roman Catholic church.

Have you ever seen how many people who are clearly living together get married in white in front of a priest (who is willfully pretending or lying to himself that the churches rules are being observed)?

That is just one incident of the willful deceit they engage in.

The slightly amusing thing for me is most catholics I have met are actually pretty much protestants in all but name.

You can't pick and choose with the RCC, they tell you what to think and you follow all their rules. Many societal norms and standards are incompatible with the RCC.

coffee_cake

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It's quite clear (laughably so to anyone within an asses roar of a church) that people lie about mass attendance, just as they lie about observing all the other rules of the Roman Catholic church.

Have you ever seen how many people who are clearly living together get married in white in front of a priest (who is willfully pretending or lying to himself that the churches rules are being observed)?

That is just one incident of the willful deceit they engage in.

The colour white was started for fashion, I'm not sure what you think the significance is

Hitman3000

Cabaal wrote:

He's surrounding himself with the best men,

Just highlights any apology or suggestion of a change in culture is bs.

kunst nugget

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

Nonsense. John Paul II, who called gay rights a "new ideology of evil," was far more harsh and doctrinaire than Francis on the topic of homosexuality.

Francis said, "God made you like this. God loves you like this." In doing so, he indicates that he accepts homosexuality as God's will, rather than representing it, as have his predecessors, as a deviant, sinful, unnatural, or evil choice by man and an affront to God. In the context of the Church's history with homosexuality, that's hugely significant.

Still doesn't say anything about any homosexual act being intrinsically disordered and being a sin. So you can be gay but to be a proper Catholic, you'll have to stay celibate for the rest of your life.

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

Straight from the Vatican again.

FrancieBrady

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

Nonsense. John Paul II, who called gay rights a "new ideology of evil," was far more harsh and doctrinaire than Francis on the topic of homosexuality.

Francis said, "God made you like this. God loves you like this." In doing so, he indicates that he accepts homosexuality as God's will, rather than representing it, as have his predecessors, as a deviant, sinful, unnatural, or evil choice by man and an affront to God. In the context of the Church's history with homosexuality, that's hugely significant.

So what has he done about it? Nothing/nada.

This is still the 'church' teaching on the issue, the same as it has been since JP2 and before.

“Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that ‘homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered’. They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved” (Catechism 2357).

And JP2 did say what I quoted. If his actual attitude to homosexuality was different, that doesn't surprise me. They all lie if it suits them at a given time, it seems.

ELM327

Cabaal wrote: »

He's surrounding himself with the best men,

They follow orders and the Vatican rules and thats important,

Like sean brady, who literally was part of the "surrounding" group at the weekend, and covered up for known pedophiles in the past.

.......

ELM327 wrote: »

Like sean brady, who literally was part of the "surrounding" group at the weekend, and covered up for known pedophiles in the past.

Like?

The pope himself has been caught covering up for pedos in South America.

joe40

ELM327 wrote: »

joe40 wrote: »

There seems to be a weird notion here that unless you fully adhere to every law in the catholic church, you can't call yourself a catholic or identify as a catholic.
That is the sort of opinion you get from the ultra right wing conservative catholics. The reality for the 1.3 billion catholics worldwide is very different. Every religion has its rules and teaching whether judaism, muslim presbyterian or whatever. The reality in every case is the religion practised by it members is on a spectrum.
I not a strong believer but since I have been baptised as a catholic, no one can take that away. The zealots may not like some of my beliefs or morals but in the absence of an excommunication, they're stuck with me.

Self interpretation of christ's teachings has already got a religion though, it's called protestantism.
Catholicism is based on blindly believing what rome tells you.

Not for me and considering, recent referenda not for a large number of people in Ireland. A lot of people consider themselves Catholic, and will practise their religion but also make up their own mind in moral issues. You may not think that is right, the hardline Catholics also hate it. (They also despise pope Francis) but that is the reality.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

joe40 wrote: »

That is the sort of opinion you get from the ultra right wing conservative catholics.

You generally see it among Catholic hardliners on the right and Catholic-bashers on the progressive left. Both groups are deeply invested in representing moderate Catholics as hypocrites. To the former, moderate Catholics should be kicked out of the Church because they aren't Catholic enough to reject contraception, homosexuality, divorce and other evils. To the former, a moderate Catholic is a fence-sitting wuss who can't fully reject superstitious hocus-pocus or fully embrace secular modernity.

The "no true Scotsman" fallacy prevails everywhere.

Cabaal

Vox Nihili, seriously, you are making a laughing stock of yourself in trying to discuss the catholic church's views on gay people.

You are well out of your depth on the topic and don't appear to have a monkeys about what the church actually thinks of gay people, its tragic.

Your posts are like watching a really slow motion car crash where the driver thinks they are a fantastic driver but you are seeing them being mangled by the end of it.

ELM327

joe40 wrote: »

Not for me and considering, recent referenda not for a large number of people in Ireland. A lot of people consider themselves Catholic, and will practise their religion but also make up their own mind in moral issues. You may not think that is right, the hardline Catholics also hate it. (They also despise pope Francis) but that is the reality.

The two are mutually exclusive
You are not a catholic if you make up your own mind.
That's protestantism.


It's hilarious that someone professing to be a catholic hasn't a clue what it actually means.

awec

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

You generally see it among Catholic hardliners on the right and Catholic-bashers on the progressive left. Both groups are deeply invested in representing moderate Catholics as hypocrites. To the former, moderate Catholics should be kicked out of the Church because they aren't Catholic enough to reject contraception, homosexuality, divorce and other evils. To the former, a moderate Catholic is a fence-sitting wuss who can't fully reject superstitious hocus-pocus or fully embrace secular modernity.

The "no true Scotsman" fallacy prevails everywhere.

In strict terms there is no degrees of Roman Catholic. You either are or you are not. The primacy of the pope + Rome is at the very heart of Roman Catholicism.

Catholics who pick and choose make as much sense as protestants who believe the pope is really the head of the church.

People still identify as catholic obviously, but it's more cultural, because the religious side doesn't really stand up to scrutiny. I suspect Irish history has a large part to play here, and there would be more people identifying as protestant if it didn't have negative connotations for whatever reason.

murpho999

awec wrote: »

In strict terms there is no degrees of Roman Catholic. You either are or you are not. The primacy of the pope + Rome is at the very heart of Roman Catholicism.

Catholics who pick and choose make as much sense as protestants who believe the pope is really the head of the church.

People still identify as catholic obviously, but it's more cultural, because the religious side doesn't really stand up to scrutiny. I suspect Irish history has a large part to play here, and there would be more people identifying as protestant if it didn't have negative connotations for whatever reason.

Agree with this, it has a huge part to play.

From Catholic Opression, the Penal Laws and through to being Catholic identified as Irish not British, it is a huge reason why so many people are culturally Catholic without ever questioning it.

Taytoland

Culturally Catholic. You can only laugh at how dumb that is.

Hitman3000

Taytoland wrote:

Culturally Catholic. You can only laugh at how dumb that is.

Bouncy castle Catholic is funnier.

FrancieBrady

awec wrote: »

In strict terms there is no degrees of Roman Catholic. You either are or you are not. The primacy of the pope + Rome is at the very heart of Roman Catholicism.

Catholics who pick and choose make as much sense as protestants who believe the pope is really the head of the church.

People still identify as catholic obviously, but it's more cultural, because the religious side doesn't really stand up to scrutiny. I suspect Irish history has a large part to play here, and there would be more people identifying as protestant if it didn't have negative connotations for whatever reason.

Whether because he was a devout Roman Catholic or because he needed church support for his minority FF government Dev, who had been excommunicated, found himself carrying the canopy over the Papal Legate as a massive Eucharistic conference parade went through the centre of Dublin in 1932.

the Vatican which had been very worried about what was happening in Ireland threw massive resources into the Eucharistic Congress of 1932, there were 2200 priests on the altar in the Phoenix Park.

The fledgling state hadn't a chance, it was practically a coup.

ohnonotgmail

Apparently anybody who watched the Pope on tv got a partial indulgence. Happy days.

ohnonotgmail

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Whether because he was a devout Roman Catholic or because he needed church support for his minority FF government Dev, who had been excommunicated, found himself carrying the canopy over the Papal Legate as a massive Eucharistic conference parade went through the centre of Dublin in 1932.

the Vatican which had been very worried about what was happening in Ireland threw massive resources into the Eucharistic Congress of 1932, there were 2200 priests on the altar in the Phoenix Park.

The fledgling state hadn't a chance, it was practically a coup.

how big was that altar??

Cabaal

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Bouncy castle Catholic is funnier.

Also more accurate :pac:

amcalester

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Apparently anybody who watched the Pope on tv got a partial indulgence. Happy days.

Have you a source for that?

My father said the same to me but now he can't remember where he heard it and is wondering if he actually did. I'd like to send it to him.

joe40

ELM327 wrote: »

joe40 wrote: »

Not for me and considering, recent referenda not for a large number of people in Ireland. A lot of people consider themselves Catholic, and will practise their religion but also make up their own mind in moral issues. You may not think that is right, the hardline Catholics also hate it. (They also despise pope Francis) but that is the reality.

The two are mutually exclusive
You are not a catholic if you make up your own mind.
That's protestantism.


It's hilarious that someone professing to be a catholic hasn't a clue what it actually means.

Glad you found it hilarious, but that is modern catholism in Ireland. Personally my religion is pretty lapsed at the moment, but even among practising catholics the number that would find contraception morally wrong would be tiny. I was at a wedding last week where the couple are quite involved with the local church, readint mass etc. The local priest knew them very well gave and had obvious affection. The couple have been living together prior to this for years and have 2 kids.
That is the reality whether you find it hilarious or not. I expect condemnation from the hardliners who would love to get back to a small number of the really devout. Maybe that will happen, that is the type of church espoused by benedict. Francis at least in tone is different, the written rules won't change but how they are lived out has changed. Ireland is proof of that. For me personally I rarely go to mass now not sure how much I believe. I make up my own mind on moral issues but am not ready to give up been a catholic. Maybe more cultural than religious but that is how I feel.

FrancieBrady

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

how big was that altar??

Huge apparently.

ohnonotgmail

amcalester wrote: »

Have you a source for that?

My father said the same to me but now he can't remember where he heard it and is wondering if he actually did. I'd like to send it to him.

It is in the irish mirror

ELM327

joe40 wrote: »

Glad you found it hilarious, but that is modern catholism in Ireland. Personally my religion is pretty lapsed at the moment, but even among practising catholics the number that would find contraception morally wrong would be tiny. I was at a wedding last week where the couple are quite involved with the local church, readint mass etc. The local priest knew them very well gave and had obvious affection. The couple have been living together prior to this for years and have 2 kids.
That is the reality whether you find it hilarious or not. I expect condemnation from the hardliners who would love to get back to a small number of the really devout. Maybe that will happen, that is the type of church espoused by benedict. Francis at least in tone is different, the written rules won't change but how they are lived out has changed. Ireland is proof of that. For me personally I rarely go to mass now not sure how much I believe. I make up my own mind on moral issues but am not ready to give up been a catholic. Maybe more cultural than religious but that is how I feel.

I hate to break it to you but the religion you are espousing there is protestantism.
As is the case for most of Ireland tbh, there's very few actual catholics left.


Actual catholics, who you know, abide by vatican II and humanae vitae, using the rhythm method as the only church approved contraceptive. Who disapprove of homosexual acts because the act is sinful. Who are against divorce even in cases of spousal abuse.


If you do even one of the above things, you are not a catholic. Irish people need to face up to the fact that what they call "catholic" is not aligned with the actual catholicism as defined by the rcc. The number one value of catholicism is blindly taking the word of vatican as gods unquestionable truth.

joe40

ELM327 wrote: »

joe40 wrote: »

Glad you found it hilarious, but that is modern catholism in Ireland. Personally my religion is pretty lapsed at the moment, but even among practising catholics the number that would find contraception morally wrong would be tiny. I was at a wedding last week where the couple are quite involved with the local church, readint mass etc. The local priest knew them very well gave and had obvious affection. The couple have been living together prior to this for years and have 2 kids.
That is the reality whether you find it hilarious or not. I expect condemnation from the hardliners who would love to get back to a small number of the really devout. Maybe that will happen, that is the type of church espoused by benedict. Francis at least in tone is different, the written rules won't change but how they are lived out has changed. Ireland is proof of that. For me personally I rarely go to mass now not sure how much I believe. I make up my own mind on moral issues but am not ready to give up been a catholic. Maybe more cultural than religious but that is how I feel.

I hate to break it to you but the religion you are espousing there is protestantism.
As is the case for most of Ireland tbh, there's very few actual catholics left.


Actual catholics, who you know, abide by vatican II and humanae vitae, using the rhythm method as the only church approved contraceptive. Who disapprove of homosexual acts because the act is sinful. Who are against divorce even in cases of spousal abuse.


If you do even one of the above things, you are not a catholic. Irish people need to face up to the fact that what they call "catholic" is not aligned with the actual catholicism as defined by the rcc. The number one value of catholicism is blindly taking the word of vatican as gods unquestionable truth.

So the priest at this wedding was what, an idiot, unbeliever, a protestant for marrying this couple.
Are you in fact a priest or theologian since you can define exactly what a catholic is.

ELM327

joe40 wrote: »

So the priest at this wedding was what, an idiot, unbeliever, a protestant for marrying this couple.
Are you in fact a priest or theologian since you can define exactly what a catholic is.

The priest was disobeying the church as the couple should not have been wed as they had been living in sin.


I'm not a priest, I'm just a firm believer in knowing your enemy/oppressor in great detail.