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So who's going to see the Pope?

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Comments

  • #3482
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,927 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Camila Famous Granule wrote: »
    The Irish Catholic said 24% of young people.



    Link: https://www.irishcatholic.com/young-irish-mass-attendance-still-remarkably-high-numbers-show/

    Indeed, Irish young adults remain among the most religious young adults in Europe, with around 24% of young people attending Mass weekly, according to the latest figures from the European Social Survey (ESS).

    The survey also revealed that approximately one in 10 young Irish Catholics attend religious services on a weekly basis, excluding special occasions such as weddings or funerals, while 31% of the same category said they pray weekly or more.


    Both quotes cannot be true. and they are from the same article. But this all bye the bye. the RCC is dying in this country and long may that continue.


  • #3483
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,190 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Camila Famous Granule wrote: »
    The 16-29 part is indeed in the article, as the definition of what is meant by young adults. You must have overlooked it, along with all the other parts you somehow managed to overlook.

    And yet you somehow managed to miss the headline figure in the article. Let me quote it for you again, from the second paragraph: "around 24% of young people attend Mass weekly, according to the latest figures from the European Social Survey (ESS)."
    <Claims an article says something>

    <Proceeds to quote the piece and completely refute his own statement>

    Great work, Vox. Continuing tying those knots.

    I find your continual defence of the RCC funny, given your libertarian outlook. Your disdain for authority and bureaucracy is apparent, and yet you fight in the corner of an organisation which is the ultimate example in pure bureaucracy from the ground up; invented rules to propagate invented rules to propagate the invented power of some bureaucrats.


  • #3484
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,571 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Camila Famous Granule wrote: »
    The pope wrote Amoris Laetitia, an apostolic exhortation, to tell those people who would see homosexuals as "unnatural, disordered, and evil" that he no longer wishes to see the Church react in that manner. He has made it clear that he doesn't agree with those attitudes and -- by issuing an apostolic exhortation -- that he wishes to change them.

    Just meaningless words,
    it hasn't changed the position of the Catholic Church in any country officially,

    its like claiming you have no problem with black people and you don't judge them.....but you still don't want them entering your house and still see them as disordered and evil.

    The church needs to take actions, not just make nice sounding words.


  • #3485
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,190 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Just meaningless words,
    Literally. "The Pope made some incantations over a burning cauldron and urged his high wizards to smell the aromatiea of levinius, which is a call to be examine their thoughts about gay people".


  • #3486
    xi5yvm0owc1s2b
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭xi5yvm0owc1s2b


    awec wrote: »
    Anyone who believes almost one quarter of 16 to 29 year olds attends a mass once a week is an idiot.

    Indeed. Those idiotic statisticians at the ESS. What do they know.


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  • #3487
    Strazdas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,361 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Beechwoodspark wrote: »
    Loads of ppl are not at all devout or mass goers but are adamant they are Catholics and would tell you forcefully that they are catholic

    If a person is baptised a Catholic and say they are a Catholic, then they are a Catholic.

    An atheist who claims to be an atheist would hardly have someone telling them "You are not a 'real' atheist".


  • #3488
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,656 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Camila Famous Granule wrote: »
    Indeed. Those idiotic statisticians at the ESS. What do they know.

    Roman Catholics lie all the time about their faith. You said it yourself.

    Nothing out of the pope's mouth or an ordinary Roman catholic with regards the faith can be trusted. It is as simple as that.


  • #3489
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    Strazdas wrote:
    If a person is baptised a Catholic and say they are a Catholic, then they are a Catholic.


    To be a Catholic does one not have to subscribe to the beliefs and practice the faith? I can call myself a goat doesn't mean I am a goat though.


  • #3490
    xi5yvm0owc1s2b
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭xi5yvm0owc1s2b


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Roman Catholics lie all the time about their faith. You said it yourself.

    Ah, right. Now we have found a way to reconcile carefully researched academic statistics with taxi-driver level opinion.

    Catholics lie about everything relating to their faith, all the time, and can't be trusted.

    I assume Irish Catholics just lie a lot more than French Catholics or Dutch Catholics? And Polish Catholics lie even more still?


  • #3491
    Strazdas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,361 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Hitman3000 wrote: »
    To be a Catholic does one not have to subscribe to the beliefs and practice the faith? I can call myself a goat doesn't mean I am a goat though.

    Not necessarily : there might be an 'expectation' that they should practise the religion but no more than that. A person could drop out of Mass attendance or confession for 50 years and then decide to turn up again and there would be no problem with it. There is no such thing as a lapsed membership, it's not like being a member of a golf club or a gym or whatever.


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  • #3492
    murpho999
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,767 ✭✭✭✭murpho999


    Hitman3000 wrote: »
    To be a Catholic does one not have to subscribe to the beliefs and practice the faith? I can call myself a goat doesn't mean I am a goat though.

    Of course you do.

    If you're a member of a club then you have to abide by the rules.

    I don't get how people think they can just pick and choose what they believe in.

    Going by recent referendums I think over 50% of people who fill in the census form as catholic should not actually do so.


  • #3493
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    Strazdas wrote: »
    If a person is baptised a Catholic and say they are a Catholic, then they are a Catholic.

    An atheist who claims to be an atheist would hardly have someone telling them "You are not a 'real' atheist".

    I saw Jordan Peterson do that in a debate with Matt Dillahunty.

    That is a false equivalence though. Catholicism has a very strict set of rules and beliefs that are mapped out in Canon law that tells what is a sin and when you should or shouldn't be allowed to take communion. If, for example, you have had sex before marriage and haven't been absolved of your sin in confession or you have divorced and remarried then you have not followed the strict rules of the faith. If you think these issues are unimportant, then you're truly not following the Catholic faith properly.

    Atheism is merely the belief that there is no God.


  • #3494
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    Strazdas wrote: »
    If a person is baptised a Catholic and say they are a Catholic, then they are a Catholic.

    An atheist who claims to be an atheist would hardly have someone telling them "You are not a 'real' atheist".

    I was baptised as a Catholic but I'm an atheist. I have no formal way of leaving the church if I really desired to do so.


  • #3495
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,656 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Camila Famous Granule wrote: »
    Ah, right. Now we have found a way to reconcile carefully researched academic statistics with taxi-driver level opinion.

    Catholics lie about everything relating to their faith, all the time, and can't be trusted.

    I assume Irish Catholics just lie a lot more than French Catholics or Dutch Catholics? And Polish Catholics lie even more still?

    I don't know if they do or not in those countries. They probably do I suspect.

    They certainly do here.
    They use contraception, have sex outside marriage, voted for gay marriage, abortion and divorce etc. While the rules of their organisation say that they shouldn't.

    Therefore they are lying to themselves and the church is accepting those lies by continuing to pretend that they are Catholics.


  • #3496
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    Strazdas wrote:
    Not necessarily : there might be an 'expectation' that they should practise the religion but no more than that. A person could drop out of Mass attendance or confession for 50 years and then decide to turn up again and there would be no problem with it. There is no such thing as a lapsed membership, it's not like being a member of a golf club or a gym or whatever.


    So Catholic in name only. Same as me identifying as a goat. Meaningless.


  • #3497
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    kunst nugget wrote: »

    Atheism is merely the belief that there is no God.

    Actually its the absence of belief in a god or gods.


  • #3498
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    ....... wrote: »
    Actually its the absence of belief in a god or gods.

    Okay... if you really need to be pedantic about it…


  • #3499
    xi5yvm0owc1s2b
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭xi5yvm0owc1s2b


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    Catholicism has a very strict set of rules and beliefs that are mapped out in Canon law that tells what is a sin and when you should or shouldn't be allowed to take communion. If, for example, you have had sex before marriage and haven't been absolved of your sin in confession or you have divorced and remarried then you have not followed the strict rules of the faith. If you think these issues are unimportant, then you're truly not following the Catholic faith properly.

    And yet the pope's own Amoris Laetitia tells Catholic clergy that they should not "apply moral laws to those living in 'irregular' situations, as if they were stones to throw at people’s lives." He has also told them to avoid black and white thinking.

    The notion that Catholicism is an inflexible, doctrinaire list of "thou shalt not"s is one that this pope explicitly rejects.


  • #3500
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    Strazdas wrote:
    Not necessarily : there might be an 'expectation' that they should practise the religion but no more than that. A person could drop out of Mass attendance or confession for 50 years and then decide to turn up again and there would be no problem with it. There is no such thing as a lapsed membership, it's not like being a member of a golf club or a gym or whatever.


    So Catholic in name only. Same as me identifying as a goat. Meaningless.


  • #3501
    UsedToWait
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,273 ✭✭✭UsedToWait


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    I was baptised as a Catholic but I'm an atheist. I have no formal way of leaving the church if I really desired to do so.

    Wasn't there a way to do this which was removed when people started leaving in droves a few years back?


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  • #3502
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    Camila Famous Granule wrote: »
    And yet the pope's own Amoris Laetitia tells Catholic clergy that they should not "apply moral laws to those living in 'irregular' situations, as if they were stones to throw at people’s lives." He has also told them to avoid black and white thinking.

    The notion that Catholicism is an inflexible, doctrinaire list of "thou shalt not"s is one that this pope explicitly rejects.

    The problem is that he hasn't told people how to put the square peg into the round hole when it comes to applying what he has said in his Amoris Laetitia against what is strictly laid down in Canon Law.
    The fidelity of conjugal love

    1646 By its very nature conjugal love requires the inviolable fidelity of the spouses. This is the consequence of the gift of themselves which they make to each other. Love seeks to be definitive; it cannot be an arrangement "until further notice." the "intimate union of marriage, as a mutual giving of two persons, and the good of the children, demand total fidelity from the spouses and require an unbreakable union between them."155

    1647 The deepest reason is found in the fidelity of God to his covenant, in that of Christ to his Church. Through the sacrament of Matrimony the spouses are enabled to represent this fidelity and witness to it. Through the sacrament, the indissolubility of marriage receives a new and deeper meaning.

    1648 It can seem difficult, even impossible, to bind oneself for life to another human being. This makes it all the more important to proclaim the Good News that God loves us with a definitive and irrevocable love, that married couples share in this love, that it supports and sustains them, and that by their own faithfulness they can be witnesses to God's faithful love. Spouses who with God's grace give this witness, often in very difficult conditions, deserve the gratitude and support of the ecclesial community.156

    1649 Yet there are some situations in which living together becomes practically impossible for a variety of reasons. In such cases the Church permits the physical separation of the couple and their living apart. the spouses do not cease to be husband and wife before God and so are not free to contract a new union. In this difficult situation, the best solution would be, if possible, reconciliation. the Christian community is called to help these persons live out their situation in a Christian manner and in fidelity to their marriage bond which remains indissoluble.157

    1650 Today there are numerous Catholics in many countries who have recourse to civil divorce and contract new civil unions. In fidelity to the words of Jesus Christ - "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another, commits adultery against her; and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery"158 The Church maintains that a new union cannot be recognized as valid, if the first marriage was. If the divorced are remarried civilly, they find themselves in a situation that objectively contravenes God's law. Consequently, they cannot receive Eucharistic communion as long as this situation persists. For the same reason, they cannot exercise certain ecclesial responsibilities. Reconciliation through the sacrament of Penance can be granted only to those who have repented for having violated the sign of the covenant and of fidelity to Christ, and who are committed to living in complete continence.

    Straight from the Vatican itself


  • #3503
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,656 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Camila Famous Granule wrote: »
    And yet the pope's own Amoris Laetitia tells Catholic clergy that they should not "apply moral laws to those living in 'irregular' situations, as if they were stones to throw at people’s lives." He has also told them to avoid black and white thinking.

    The notion that Catholicism is an inflexible, doctrinaire list of "thou shalt not"s is one that this pope explicitly rejects.

    John Paul 2 said much the same when he said;
    John Paul wrote:
    “the number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible”,
    advocating that they
    “be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity”

    that is not much different to what Francis said to the Chilean man, which you are claiming as something new and progressive:
    Francis wrote:
    You know Juan Carlos, that does not matter. God made you like this. God loves you like this. The Pope loves you like this, and you should love yourself and not worry about what people say.

    There is nothing new in this from Francis and neither John Paul or the interveneing popes nor Francis have changed or intend to change
    what the Catechism(the rulebook) of the Catholic Church states:

    “Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that ‘homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered’. They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved” (Catechism 2357)

    In short, it is all self serving guff from Francis or to be truthful: lies.


  • #3504
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    UsedToWait wrote: »
    Wasn't there a way to do this which was removed when people started leaving in droves a few years back?

    Aye, I think about 10-15 years ago they got rid of it.


  • #3505
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 55,061 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Camila Famous Granule wrote: »
    Ah, right. Now we have found a way to reconcile carefully researched academic statistics with taxi-driver level opinion.

    Catholics lie about everything relating to their faith, all the time, and can't be trusted.

    I assume Irish Catholics just lie a lot more than French Catholics or Dutch Catholics? And Polish Catholics lie even more still?
    How were they researched? Who did they ask?

    If 25% of young catholics were in mass each week the churches would be packed out the door. There'd be queues to get in, people listening to mass in the car park.

    It is complete nonsense.


  • #3506
    DChancer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 234 ✭✭DChancer


    Based on the press conference on the plane back to Rome and what was disclosed in it then it is safe to say that Pope Francis is a lying deceitful manipulative evil bastard determined to preserve the dominance of his church regardless of who gets or it hurt by it.
    Evil CNUT! Good riddance to him.


  • #3507
    UsedToWait
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,273 ✭✭✭UsedToWait


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    Aye, I think about 10-15 years ago they got rid of it.

    Time for a movement to bring it back, I'd say.


  • #3508
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,927 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    UsedToWait wrote: »
    Wasn't there a way to do this which was removed when people started leaving in droves a few years back?


    yeah that was taken away.


  • #3509
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    Just saw a photo online of whom greeted Frank when he steeped off the plane. Brady standing proud in the photo. This is the creature which swore 2 young boys to secrecy and thereby allowing Smyth to carry on his abuse. Yeah Frank is sorry for the abuse...kindly f**k right off.


  • #3510
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,656 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    awec wrote: »
    How were they researched? Who did they ask?

    If 25% of young catholics were in mass each week the churches would be packed out the door. There'd be queues to get in, people listening to mass in the car park.

    It is complete nonsense.

    It's quite clear (laughably so to anyone within an asses roar of a church) that people lie about mass attendance, just as they lie about observing all the other rules of the Roman Catholic church.

    Have you ever seen how many people who are clearly living together get married in white in front of a priest (who is willfully pretending or lying to himself that the churches rules are being observed)?

    That is just one incident of the willful deceit they engage in.


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  • #3511
    joe40
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,813 ✭✭✭joe40


    There seems to be a weird notion here that unless you fully adhere to every law in the catholic church, you can't call yourself a catholic or identify as a catholic.
    That is the sort of opinion you get from the ultra right wing conservative catholics. The reality for the 1.3 billion catholics worldwide is very different. Every religion has its rules and teaching whether judaism, muslim presbyterian or whatever. The reality in every case is the religion practised by it members is on a spectrum.
    I not a strong believer but since I have been baptised as a catholic, no one can take that away. The zealots may not like some of my beliefs or morals but in the absence of an excommunication, they're stuck with me.


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