So who's going to see the Pope?

ohnonotgmail

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

The 16-29 part is indeed in the article, as the definition of what is meant by young adults. You must have overlooked it, along with all the other parts you somehow managed to overlook.



And yet you somehow managed to miss the headline figure in the article. Let me quote it for you again, from the second paragraph: "around 24% of young people attend Mass weekly, according to the latest figures from the European Social Survey (ESS)."

I posted the actual ESS figures earlier.

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

and yet the actual figures don't say that at all. I suspect that he is, in the parlance of the youth, talking out of his hoop

Guy:Incognito

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

It really isn't.

78 percent of the Irish population still self-identify as Catholics. We have the third highest church attendance in Europe, behind Portugal and Poland. Fewer than 10 percent of the population identify as having no religion.

Ireland remains one of the most religious countries in the Western world, with Catholicism predominating.

I wonder how many of the people actually fill in the form themselves rather than a mother/father filling it in and ticking Catholic for everyone in the house?

Beechwoodspark

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

The pope has said in a recent interview: "It is not necessary to talk about [abortion, gay marriage and contraception] all the time. The dogmatic and moral teachings of the church are not all equivalent. The church’s pastoral ministry cannot be obsessed with the transmission of a disjointed multitude of doctrines to be imposed insistently."

In short, there's much more to being a Catholic, in the eyes of Pope Francis, than "following the rules" on a narrow spectrum of issues.



Well, many do want and need it. It's a personal decision.

It’s called freedom of religion and our constitution protects it

Dannyriver

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

To the question on how a family should treat a gay or lesbian child, the pope said: "To ignore a son or daughter with homosexual tendencies is a lack of paternity and maternity. You are my son, you are my daughter as you are! I’m your father, mother. Let’s talk! And if you, father and mother aren’t up to it, ask for help, but always in dialogue because that son and that daughter have the right to a family and that family of not being chased out of the family."

This is a message of acceptance. He's telling parents who reject gay children that they are not fulfilling their parental role. He's telling gay children that they too have the right to a family. So where's the problem?

Selective use of his statement he also suggested that psychiatric intervention also be an option thus alluding to conversion therapy which is out lawed by the American Psychiatric association for it being dangerous and damaging for those that have been put through it

Beechwoodspark

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

I wonder how many of the people actually fill in the form themselves rather than a mother/father filling it in and ticking Catholic for everyone in the house?

Loads of ppl are not at all devout or mass goers but are adamant they are Catholics and would tell you forcefully that they are catholic

Sardine

Money isn’t the new religion. And social media.

ohnonotgmail

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Loads of ppl are not at all devout or mass goers but are adamant they are Catholics and would tell you forcefully that they are catholic

There is a word for that : Hypocrisy.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

Dannyriver wrote: »

Selective use of his statement he also suggested that psychiatric intervention also be an option thus alluding to conversion therapy which is out lawed by the American Psychiatric association for it being dangerous and damaging for those that have been put through it

He said:

Then, at what age does this restlessness of the child express itself? It’s important. One thing is when it shows itself in a child. There are many things to do with psychiatry, to see how things are. Another thing is when it manifests itself after 20 years of age… But I’ll never say that silence is a remedy.

Where in this does he support conversion therapy?

Beechwoodspark

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

There is a word for that : Hypocrisy.

Maybe so. That’s for them to ponder I guess

FrancieBrady

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Loads of ppl are not at all devout or mass goers but are adamant they are Catholics and would tell you forcefully that they are catholic

Generally when they want something only Roman Catholics can have. Otherwise it is 'whatever'.

Dannyriver

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

He said:



Where in this does he support conversion therapy?

You don t think the use of the word 'psychiatry' is pertinent no?

Currache

Probably not!

Trasna1

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

I wonder how many of the people actually fill in the form themselves rather than a mother/father filling it in and ticking Catholic for everyone in the house?

If you're not a dependent you should be filling in your section yourself.

Maybe many would see Catholicism as almost a meaningless label, just something that you are but doesn't impart any obligations on you.

When it comes to faith, it's not something that many are comfortable thinking about or questioning imo, hence you get a sort of default answer.

FrancieBrady

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

To the question on how a family should treat a gay or lesbian child, the pope said: "To ignore a son or daughter with homosexual tendencies is a lack of paternity and maternity. You are my son, you are my daughter as you are! I’m your father, mother. Let’s talk! And if you, father and mother aren’t up to it, ask for help, but always in dialogue because that son and that daughter have the right to a family and that family of not being chased out of the family."

This is a message of acceptance. He's telling parents who reject gay children that they are not fulfilling their parental role. He's telling gay children that they too have the right to a family. So where's the problem?

Even the language here is offenxive to gay people I would imagine.
'homosexual 'tendencies'???

You are either gay or you are not, I would have thought.

Dannyriver

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

He said:



Where in this does he support conversion therapy?

As a matter of interest why do you think he used the word 'psychiatry' as a possible intervention at the parents disposal.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

Dannyriver wrote: »

You don t think the use of the word 'psychiatry' is pertinent no?

Not especially. You seem to have jumped to the conclusion that "The pope said the word 'psychiatry.' OMG he supports conversion therapy!"

It's clear from the context that he supports dialogue between Catholic parents and their gay children, and acceptance of those gay children into the family structure.

Dannyriver

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

Not especially. You seem to have jumped to the conclusion that "The pope said the word 'psychiatry.' OMG he supports conversion therapy!"

It's clear from the context that he supports dialogue between Catholic parents and their gay children, and acceptance of those gay children into the family structure.

As a matter of interest why do you think he used the word 'psychiatry' as a possible intervention at the parents disposal.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I posted the actual ESS figures earlier.

You clearly aren't able to make head nor tail of the ESS figures.

Here's a chart from the BBC, also based on the ESS figures.



I'll wait for you to tell the BBC that they're wrong now as well.

RoryMac

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

Yes, and he should be applauded for it, in my view. He is the most forward-thinking pope in a very long time, and is more than willing to acknowledge the many mistakes that the church has made in the past.

Hes certainly the pope best versed in PR for a very long time and while he acknowledges many of the mistakes made in the past he's done little of substance to bring the perpetrators of this crimes to justice

ohnonotgmail

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

You clearly aren't able to make head nor tail of the ESS figures.

Here's a chart from the BBC, also based on the ESS figures.



I'll wait for you to tell the BBC that they're wrong now as well.

It is funny how they apparently looked at the same data as the IT and came up with a different figure. the IT said 36% and they are saying over 40%. I posted the figures directly from the ESS website. Which do you think are more accurate?

FrancieBrady

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

You clearly aren't able to make head nor tail of the ESS figures.

Here's a chart from the BBC, also based on the ESS figures.



I'll wait for you to tell the BBC that they're wrong now as well.

We know Roman Catholics routinely lie about these things, you have admitted it yourself.

No figure can be trusted. But by all means visit churches and the evidence is there. Like the vast area put aside for this visit yesterday you will find vast buildings with a smattering of people inside celebrating mass.

Currache

No I don't see any point in going to be honest

lawred2

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

You clearly aren't able to make head nor tail of the ESS figures.

Here's a chart from the BBC, also based on the ESS figures.



I'll wait for you to tell the BBC that they're wrong now as well.

ahem

I'll say it again

% of Catholics

What are we supposed to take that number as?

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

Dannyriver wrote: »

As a matter of interest why do you think he used the word 'psychiatry' as a possible intervention at the parents disposal.

He didn't mention "intervention." Read his comments in context. He was talking about people who realize they are gay as children, versus people who don't realize until much later, and suggested that psychiatry might be able to provide some insight on this.

You have jumped to the conclusion that he supports "psychiatric intervention" and "conversion therapy," which he clearly does not. He said in his press conference that there have always been homosexual people in society. He advocates for them to be accepted by their families, and indicates that a mother or father who cannot accept a gay child is neglecting his or her parental responsibility to that child. This is actually the opposite of what supporters of conversion therapy would say.

cozar

and still there will be thousands of children making their communion and confirmation next year.?

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

It is funny how they apparently looked at the same data as the IT and came up with a different figure. the IT said 36% and they are saying over 40%. I posted the figures directly from the ESS website. Which do you think are more accurate?

It's remarkable how the BBC, the Irish Times, and numerous other media sources are all publishing entirely different interpretations of the ESS data -- and yet you're the one dancing around insisting that you are right and everyone else is wrong.

FrancieBrady

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

He didn't mention "intervention." Read his comments in context. He was talking about people who realize they are gay as children, versus people who don't realize until much later, and suggested that psychiatry might be able to provide some insight on this.

You have jumped to the conclusion that he supports "psychiatric intervention" and "conversion therapy," which he clearly does not. He said in his press conference that there have always been homosexual people in society. He advocates for them to be accepted by their families, and indicates that a mother or father who cannot accept a gay child is neglecting his or her parental responsibility to that child. This is actually the opposite of what supporters of conversion therapy would say.

Why would a gay child need psychiatry?

Such demeaning language. Perpetuating the myth that there is something wrong with a child who is gay.

Give it up Francis, you don't have a clue.

Dannyriver

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

He didn't mention "intervention." Read his comments in context. He was talking about people who realize they are gay as children, versus people who don't realize until much later, and suggested that psychiatry might be able to provide some insight on this.

You have jumped to the conclusion that he supports "psychiatric intervention" and "conversion therapy," which he clearly does not. He said in his press conference that there have always been homosexual people in society. He advocates for them to be accepted by their families, and indicates that a mother or father who cannot accept a gay child is neglecting his or her parental responsibility to that child. This is actually the opposite of what supporters of conversion therapy would say.

What kind of insight do you feel he is referring to?

ohnonotgmail

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

It's remarkable how the BBC, the Irish Times, and numerous other media sources are all publishing entirely different interpretations of the ESS data -- and yet you're the one dancing around insisting that you are right and everyone else is wrong.

I am just posting the actual data. How is then that the BBC and IT quote different figures? they can't both be right.



I redid the figures only including those who claim to be catholic. still nowhere near the figures given by either the BBC or the IT

spurious

If you are already self-identifying as Catholic, 40% weekly (or even regular) Mass attendance is still low.